Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
I'm hoping to do a time attack sooner or later, and was actually doing kickle cubicle for a first as it would be very entertaining to watch. However, three things kept me from doing it: 1) it would suffer from bubble bobble syndrome in that transferring from level to level would take up about 1/3 of the video in total 2) I was experimenting, and I'm pretty sure the fastest way to travel on a stage is diagonally; I will try to explain. Say you are on a 3x3 area, and are hoping to get from one corner to the other. If you went up two squares and left two squares, you would think that that would be as fast as travelling up one square, left one square, up one square, left one square, since with that route you are never truly going diagonally. However, I noticed that if you are moving from one square to another, and turn while more than half of your body is on the second square, you will be pushed onto that second square and your turn will start sooner. So basically, the more turning you do, the better. I may be wrong, but if what I say is right, one would have to do this very frustrating turn motion constantly in order to shave off probably a total of several seconds. It's just something I wasn't prepared to do but maybe somebody else is. I hope I was clear on this point. 3) It is indeed a long game and since I haven't done a time attack yet, I'm hoping to have a somewhat shorter one so I know I'll finish it. [Edit by Bisqwit: Moved into Kickle Cubicle thread (from Kickle Cubicle, Battle at Olympus, and Clash at Demonhead thread)]
Post subject: Kickle Cubicle
Former player
Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico
Has anyone thought of doing this game as fast as it possibly could go? It seems really boring but a challenge.
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
Post subject: Kickle Cubicle
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
A friend of mine whom I introduced to timeattacks requested from me a Kickle Cubicle timeattack. I'm currently working on a first draft; I'll share if anyone is interested in seeing what I have so far. I'm working in VirtuaNES (probably an older version, though it was the latest when I first downloaded it). Would anyone else be interested in seeing a timeattack for this game? As there are no readily exploitable glitches (that I know about), I will have to turn to other methods, like pixel-perfect optimization, to make it more than just a how-to-beat-these-100-or-so-levels. It would be the first timeattack I've ever created, despite my long-time enjoyment of those produced by the masters here. [EDIT by Bisqwit: Merged into existing thread. Please learn to use Search!]
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
This has been brought up before. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=234 (multi-game topic) http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2610 (No replies! How sad.) http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1657 In that last one I brought up the possibility of doing the Japanese version, Meikyuu Shima, which has slightly different levels and lets you choose the order. There was also a run posted by Josh L.: http://omake.studio-zoe.com/Kickle%20Cubicle%20(U).fcm And I don't know why that tag's not working...
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 1/23/2005
Posts: 73
Location: Pekin IL
i loved this puzzle game as a child. Problem is, each lvl ends with like 35 seconds of unskipable time. (much like bubble bobble) Could make for a boring TAS
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Nah, it gives you plenty of time to prepare your mind for the awesome intensity of the next level! no one will complain heheheh
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
*stops lurking* http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/438/KCTASWIP.fcm I saw this thread and decided I'd give it a try. I used "Kickle Cubicle (U).nes" for this first attempt run. The re-record count is artifically low because it took a while to get used to the controls and methods. Thus, I did the first two levels several separate times, and the movie file was deleting after each time but the last. This movie is my run of the first three levels, and I tried to get it "frame-perfect", but this is my first try, and my route may be sub-optimal. Other things I've written down from my testing are: (1) At the beginning of a level, Kickle blinks three times, then there are 21 frames before you gain control of him. (2) You may move one square from standstill by holding a direction for no less than 6 frames then releasing the directional button. (3) Moving Left-Down, Left-Up, Up-Left, or Up-Right takes one frame longer than moving Right-Up, Right-Down, Down-Right, or Down-Left. The former requires holding Left or Up for 7 frames before changing direction, and the latter requires 6 frames. Another 6 frames of holding the second direction are required before Kickle will move to the new square when the directional buttons are released. Thus, you should move Down-Left instead of Left-Down and Right-Up instead of Up-Right for speed purposes. Also, Moving Up and Left will always require an additional frame. (4) It doesn't appear to matter what direction Kickle was facing before you began pressing a directional button. My results in each test were all identical. (5) Diagonals appear useless. In my directions and movement testing, diagonals made no difference. Instead, the vertical direction overrode the horizontal direction when both were pressed. (6) When freezing one of those blue enemies and then pushing them immediately, there is a 7 frame window in which you can first press 'B' to freeze the enemy and still push the enemy on the first possible frame. (7) Determining the fastest routes for some levels could become rather tedious... thank goodness this isn't Lolo. This is my first day ever using a re-recoring emulator or recording a movie file, so keep that in mind if the quality isn't up to par.
Post subject: Kickle Cubicle WIP
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
No replies yet... I'll assume everyone who would be interested in this run only checks on weekends (wink wink). http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/446/KCTASWIP.fcm I've completed the first 15 levels in this WIP. I've tried to be as "frame perfect" as possible, but this is my first TAS attempt, and I've probably messed a few things up due to inexperience. If anyone can see that I've taken a sub-optimal route, please point it out! Levels 1-1 and 1-2: It may be faster to cross on the right part of the stage instead of the left part. I'll have to test it later. Level 1-5: I cannot figure out how to manipulate that bag to move to the right or up-right after I push the first ice cube. That would save several frames. Level 1-8: There has to be a faster route for this level, but I haven't found one yet. Level 1-9: There may be a way to manipulate the enemies on the left to have the bird push the ice cube down shortly after I freeze the enemy, but I haven't yet figured out how I can do that. Level 1-11: If it is possible to get the enemy in the top right to attempt to move leftward into the ice pillar before he moves to the right at the end, I could make use of him sooner, saving a noticeable amount of time. Oh, and I'd like very much to see what you have so far, Thrakir. Hopefully we can overcome our inexperience barrier with each other's help! Also, I think Kickle Cubicle can be entertaining if you fast forward between levels (just like Bubble Bobble). Also, I'd probably prefer to see Kickle Cubicle TASed than Meikyuu Shima since more people will be somewhat familiar with or at least aware of Kickle Cubicle whereas I doubt many people will recognize Meikyuu Shima at all, alienating the target audience.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
But they LOOK the same, right?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
But they LOOK the same, right?
Hmm... good question. When I get the chance this weekend, I'll see if I can find this game to better determine whether it would be a more suitable TAS candidate. In the meantime, I'll be learning a greater appreciation for the hard work put into the TASs on this site. Wow.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Oh, it might be called "Meikyuu Jima" instead.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
Your WIP looks great Healblade, keep it up!
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
Having recently gotten a little bit of spare time, I've taken a bit more critical look at progress so far. It seems that I find something that can be improved every time I get 2 or 3 stages into the game. Also, "josh l."s run has provided some ideas that were readically different than any of my ideas. His WIP can be found at http://omake.studio-zoe.com/Kickle%20Cubicle%20(U).fcm and is posted in the "Top games that haven't been done yet" thread, post number 31. (0) I plan to continue with Kickle Cubicle instead of Meikyuu Jima. The transition between levels is a bit shorter, but all of the levels have been changed. The levels are just too different. The levels that "are the same" have often been moved to different locations and changed with more and/or different enemies. The story and number of levels you must complete to advance the story is unchanged, however. The bosses take more hits to destroy. Overall, I think the two games are too different to justify doing a Meikyuu Jima run instead of Kickle Cubicle. It's a shame, really, since the lotus roots used at the end of a couple of stages in Garden Land look pretty cool. (1) Opening menu can be done around 400 frames faster. I can chalk this one up purely to inexperience. (2) My method of walking diagonally whenever possible is still the fastest means, but a faster way to go directly in a cardinal direction is to go 6 or 7 frames in that direction, then 1 frame perpendicularly, then 6 or 7 frames in that direction, and so forth. I refer to this is "whiplash walking". This discovery meant an immediate start-over on the run without hesitation. (3) There is a variable amount of frames between levels, and it can be manipulated. I consider five parts of the "between level" sequence, recognized by whether the screen in blank or not: -A- The frame when the screen first "shakes" upward and you have lost control of Kickle up to but not including the frame that the screen finished going black. I have seen this pary vary from 583 to 600 frames in length. This length appears to be primarily level-dependent, but a couple of levels in my posted WIP and "josh l."s WIP differed by as much as four frames. My only conjecture thus far is that the number of enemy creatures on the screen affects this length in some way. -B- The blank screen time between the level and the map. The length of this time seems to be 65 to 69 frames, and the only way I've found to manipulate this length is by varying the controller input on the last frame of controlling Kickle prior to the part -A-. This frame of input is otherwise inconsequential as far as I can tell... (knows something he isn't telling yet) -C- The time on the map. 154 frames. This time appears fixed and consistant. -D- The blank screen time between the map and the next level. 85 frames. This time appears fixed and consistant. -E- The time with Kickle and the balloon before you gain control of Kickle. I still need to do more testing, but the time is around 350 frames and seems to be affected by Kickle's starting location. Wow... that's a lot of consideration for 8 frames over a span of nearly 21 seconds. However, (8 frames per level) * (100 levels) = 800 frames = 13 1/3 seconds. (4) I've finally understood the cause of some control issues similar to lag. It seems that the game fails to recognize any controller input for 2 frames when an enemy is "hatched". Instead, the game reacts as though you had held the input for both the frame of input and the following two frames. I speculate that this occurance is due to the change from a static sprite of the "enemy egg" going through frames appearing to "hatch" an enemy to the static sprite which is overlaid by the actual enemy. Thus, the game fails to recognize controller input for the first two frames that the object enemy first comes into existance on the screen. This is just a pain that seems unavoidable. (5) I'm still working on route optimizations, but some of my routes are rather sub-optimal when the "whiplash" walking technique is used. I'm always up for suggestions, advice, and demonstrations! Sorry for the long post, especially without including a WIP, but this run hasn't been forgotten. I will hopefully have a good WIP in the next week or so!
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Hi, I hope you continue with this run. I have made a quick run of the first 3 levels. It's not much but it is something to aim for. The first 2 might be improvable, but I am not sure how. I have a possible idea for level 3, though. If you could quickly manipulate the first 2 globules into lining up in the center, you could hit the P and make 2 bridges at once. Wouldn't save but a few frames I'm afraid, but might be worth investigating further (I didn't try for very long). Anyway here it is: http://fast.filespace.org/blublu/Kickle_Cubicle__U_.fcm As of the end of level 3, it is 229 frames (3.82 sec) faster than that WIP posted by "josh l.".
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
I made this movie a very long time ago, and just as a test, so it's probably not perfect, but I noticed it's ~23 frames faster than the movie Blublu posted. This movie plays the first 2 levels
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Wow, why didn't I think of that for level 1. Amazing! I can see how a run of this game will be hard to make. Edit: it seems like for some odd reason, if you press start at or before the "irem" logo, it will disappear a few frames sooner, saving a tiny bit of time right at the start. Urgh... Not only did Baxter find a really good route for level 1, but level 2 seems to be faster as well. I'm going to redo levels 1 and 2 now. Edit: level 1 improved by 1 frame... sheeis! If it goes on like this, this movie will never be done. Edit: level 2 improved by ... 3 frames! Yay!!! Also, I managed to shorten the random time between levels, so at the end of level 2, it is 7 frames faster. Damn. Edit: I've done the first 5 levels and I'm not doing any more. http://fast.filespace.org/blublu/KickleCubicleU_v2.fcm
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Aww, why not? Can we see your current work?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Well, at least not for now, and I don't want to discourage Healblade just yet (well, that was the idea anyway)... also, the levels get really tricky later on (I mean for making a TAS, not playing normally). I might continue later if there is interest, but I'm not saying I will run this game. Edit: yes, the current movie is in my previous post.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
That movie isn't playing the third level right.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
It has worked fine for me, but for some strange reason it desynced in level 2 just now. I have NO idea why that happened, but it hasn't happened again. *confused*
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Hmm, do you have the latest FCEU? The movie said it used 0.98.12, but I think there's newer now.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Yes, that's the version I'm using. *downloads version 0.98.15* Yes, I get a desync in level 3 now. I guess I'll just redo from there. It's easy and quick since I already have the route down (at least I think I do). Did the colors get all dark and gloomy in that new version?
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Oh yeah, Nitsuja threw in a new default palette. It's not too bad.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Whew. Levels 3-5 done again. I'm glad I did that because I found a much better route in level 4. http://fast.filespace.org/blublu/KickleCubicle_U_05.fcm Edit: levels 01 - 08 are now done. I'm not sure if I'm going to do more. I want to at least wait a bit to see if someone comes up with better routes or something. http://fast.filespace.org/blublu/KickleCubicle_U_08.fcm
Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
I was gonna do this a long time ago, but I don't feel I have the patience to play games frame by frame or so. I've never beaten the extra levels, so that would be cool to see.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing