Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 159
Location: Philadelphia
It's worth noting that the trick works a lot different in OoT than in MM, likely due to the changed bomb physics. The frame data is wacky.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I've decided to write down a few known improvements for any%, before I forget them again: First wait till there is a version of mupen with which resets work for MM. Everything else will be a waste of time. - skip deku text before entering termina (you can skip the flower and the text, it's just hard) - pause buffer past bipolar mask salesman - Reset right after entering clock town to skip a cutscene - after buying bombs and chus, use a chu to get by the guard. talking to him is slow. Also use a leaver to enter GB. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhpxw4bwAHQ - In the swamp use a down-A HISS to skip the big octos - get one less deku stick in woodfall - in woodfall temple use the double bomb strat to hover over the gap. You can see this strat in PF and SHT. - Sell the last red potion isntead of drinking it so you can wrack up damage beforehand, for GBT BK skip - Manage bottles a little better so that you can catch a fairy in a real bottle - get one less nut back - Use a-slide clip in STT in the map room to get to the main room: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8VVkCaWx4 - I think the second gap in ST should be skippable with the new a-slide clip, but that would have to be tested - destroy stt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1VXKIk1Yo - fight Garo master with fire arrows instead of stick - skip stt mask cutscene with stored sot. That needs a few other little changes in the route, but I'm sure you can figure that out :D From what we timed skipping cutscenes of other temples should not be worth it. They are simply too short. For Garo master I'm not 100% sure if getting deku nuts back is even faster when you fight him with fire arrows. Does anybody know for sure? I hope I haven't forgotten anything. If so please tell me and I will add it. Considering the japanese version: Text differences are relatively negligible. Yes japanese is faster, but not by much, certainly not enough to warrent a switch. But there are quite a few big differences between J and U. I'm going to mark what helps the J version with + and what hurts it with -. + Power crouch stab: this means getting only one deku stick and destroying bosses even faster. + slightly faster text + Shoot hookshot guard in the face. No need to get into the upper room. - no cutscene skip with sodt.. there is a cutscene skip to skip the turtle cutscene, but it is slower - no flying zora - observatory platform is only reachable with zora mask - before hovering against walls you need to slice the sword once. otherwise chus won't explode (basically never happens during the TAS, so negligible) There are other differences, but afaik those are the only ones important for a TAS.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
*fixing page 131* Please see monster post on the last page.
ZFG
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 25
I think the snowhead giant cutscene skip might be worth it, just barely. I compared my 1:42 console run to grunz's TAS from goht's remains to Ikana and I soared to Ikana 23 seconds faster, but it took me 27 seconds to set up the song of time storage. Obviously a TAS could do both the SoT storage and the movement through clock town faster than I did so I think it would be a few seconds faster. You would also get extra chus to use somewhere before goht (if they save any time anywhere). Skipping the 2nd Stone Tower gap with weirdshot has been looked into a lot and it looks pretty unlikely. I also think a route that gets hookshot before bow should be looked into. If you could fit it into the route so you end up doing GBT before woodfall it could save a bit of time from not having the tatl cutscene + hookshot saving a bit of time inside woodfall. I'm not sure exactly how it would work out but I could see it being faster.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Yeah I thought about the SHT cutscene skip again. I did time it and it did come out slightly slower. But at the moment I can not put my finger on it why. Maybe I messed up? If you discount the added VC load time after a reset, that mupen does not have, you are actually about 40 seconds faster warping into Ikana than Grunz's TAS. A TAS should probably be able to get that up to at least 50 seconds, maybe a minute. Maybe a little faster setup for storing SoT and that should be unbeatable. What was my problem with it? hmm... Getting the money from ECT is ofcourse not the most efficient way for a TAS. On the other hand, you can't argue with results. I thought about getting it before ever getting to Termina, but there we'll already have to get some extra money the TAS needs to get to buy a few chus and one or two (depending on japanese or english) Deku Sticks, right before the end. So that would not be nearly enough. Maybe, with some tight optimisation, we could get in 3 runs through termina field in cycle 1. That would most certainly be fastest, if possible. Anywho this all just becomes relevant when we get a mupen that supports reset recording for MM. And we all know a lot can happen in the span of a Million years, especially in Zelda games. ;D Skipping the second gap in ST seems doable to me from the range I have seen in those clip videos. What is the problem with it? Btw. 1-2 questions to you ZFG: How does one actually reactivate the stored sot textbox? I've only ever seen it in videos and it's nowhere documented. Not even in the ZSR forums. (ofcourse it's not on the ZSR page, which is horribly out of date and has even lessen information, than it had before ZSR went CMS. Hope somebody takes that page under his/her wing eventually) What do you think which version should be used? Do the japnese advantages outweigh it's drawbacks sufficiently?
ZFG
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 25
To get the SoT text box to appear you just need to get some other text box. The best way to do this during a boss fight is just pause and press A to check an item then unpause (I actually forgot to take this into account which is probably another 2 seconds). I think the JP version would still be faster, but by very little, and I think the US version would be better entertainment wise (flying zora, that awesome hover + megaflip to the bridge in PF, no unnecessary slash before hovering against a wall)
ZFG
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 25
I had an idea today - I think it might be possible to do the zora timestop glitch (the one that is usually done to use FD outside of bosses ) at the bottom of water as zora without being close to land. I tried it on console today and couldn't get it, but I h=was able to get that similar animation of zora links foot tapping the ground fast (although only 2-3 times). I don't fully understand how the glitch works, but it seems to me that this glitch should be doable with TAS inputs. This could save a lot of time at pinnacle rock by being able to equip deku/goron and quickly warp back to the entrance. Edit: just remembered deku would end up in an infinite drown loop so that wont help, but it could still be useful for 100% with goron.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Wouldn't Goron also end up in an infinite drown loop? I just saw a video a few days ago of somebody getting that in PF. He got caught with the goron mask and since PF respawns you in water he infinatly drowned. Since pinnacle has no land the same should happen, shouldn't it? Is there maybe some way to store SoS? That would help a lot.
ZFG
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 25
Normally when you drown as goron you become human, I think the reason that happened to that guy had to do with getting caught. I tested drowning by putting on goron in pinnacle rock with cheats and it worked fine. There's no land at all in pinnacle rock so no way to sos.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I meant storing it somewhere else and then using it in pinnacle. Guess that does not work, huh? Anywho... if you could switch masks with the zora time stop glitch, could you also get out the ocarina?
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
What plugins are used on the TAS of this game? I can't find them listed on the movies.
Editor, Experienced player (852)
Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 845
Location: Québec, Canada
Antoids wrote:
What plugins are used on the TAS of this game? I can't find them listed on the movies.
Jabo 1.6 for video and audio, regular rsp plugin and tas input plugin 0.6.
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
The graphics plugin doesn't seem to be the same. I keep getting these yellow tints all over clock town when the camera is in certain positions. i havent found a plugin that avoids this yet. maybe it's a setting within the emulator? examples: i get a lot of flickering at the title screen as well, which doesn't seem to be in the video either
Editor, Experienced player (852)
Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 845
Location: Québec, Canada
Taking a guess here, but it might be related to your video card. Either way, you can try gln64, direct64, glide64, mudlord video plugin, aristotle video plugin, jabo 1.5, etc. Try them and see which suits you best!
Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
Yeah, I've been fiddling. I'm using a 660 ti, which is pretty certainly not the card being used back then. Thanks for the advice, I'll mess around some more.
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Finally something MM related to watch again! 100% Snowhead WIP by Sam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhaxk6xJcY
Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 102
Location: Not Japan
I've heard rumor of a Stone Tower Temple 100% TAS in the works, too! Glad to see this game getting some action again.
Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334
Is this run comparable to a real whole game 100% TAS? Would all of the items, like the fairy mask or the hookshot, be available at this point?
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
yeah of course, you'd have all the necessary items at this point. But no need to think about this anyway. Unless we get payed for doing the 100% TAS or unless we manage to gather a team of like 10-15 skilled TASers, a 100% is sadly never going to happen. The amount of work and time necessary is simply way too huge for it to be worth it.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
I think for a run of such ridiculous complexity to route and optimize, an exception should be made to the 'TASes should be PERFECT' rule and it should merely be incredibly, incredibly, incredibly awesome to watch. :D
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Active player (434)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil
Patashu wrote:
I think for a run of such ridiculous complexity to route and optimize, an exception should be made to the 'TASes should be PERFECT' rule and it should merely be incredibly, incredibly, incredibly awesome to watch. :D
This.
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
Experienced player (599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
grassini wrote:
Patashu wrote:
I think for a run of such ridiculous complexity to route and optimize, an exception should be made to the 'TASes should be PERFECT' rule and it should merely be incredibly, incredibly, incredibly awesome to watch. :D
This.
Still way too much work to be worth it in any way for me as a TASer.
Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1095
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
I could see it being done, if Project64 would be integrated into Bizhawk. But right now, with an N64 emulator that is worse than the GC and Wii emulator, I'm with Grunz.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
andypanther wrote:
I could see it being done, if Project64 would be integrated into Bizhawk. But right now, with an N64 emulator that is worse than the GC and Wii emulator, I'm with Grunz.
Yeah, that's true. Hopefully this happens :)
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
MrGrunz wrote:
Still way too much work to be worth it in any way for me as a TASer.
Especially since mupen is still a piece of crap. With a good N64 emulator that might be possible, but not with mupen.