Topic by Tub

Posted: 9/11/2006 12:47 AM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

..of course, walking around during those two hours will make them last longer, since time doesn't advance during screen transitions etc. If you want to finish the first cycle as fast as possible (real-time-wise), you should avoid screen-transitions, dialogs etc. Maybe the route could be changed to minimize the time spend without ingame-time flowing, even if that means detours? I don't know the planned first-cycle-route, so this suggestion might be pointless. you decide.

m00

Posted: 9/11/2006 7:56 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

If you want to avoid the camera overview when you exit normally to Termina Field for the first time, it looks like you'll have to glitch out of Clock Town (or owl warp) every single time you want to go outside...

Posted: 9/11/2006 4:23 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Oh yeah, the camera overview. You get four choices, but only one per game!

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 9/11/2006 11:42 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

You only really glitch out of Clock town on the first cycle. After that, leaving Clock Town to Termina field will always activater the scene.

Posted: 9/14/2006 8:34 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Not to rush you or anything, but when do you expect to release an update?

Posted: 9/16/2006 3:29 AM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

I'm not sure. I've recently made little progress due to school related things, but I'll try to get back on it.

Posted: 9/19/2006 7:48 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Here are some tips from AKA regarding using frame advance on various tasks:

AKA wrote:

If your using Mupen then frame advance should be used without exception expect during long backwalks for obvious reasons, its actually much quicker to advance frames using the frame advance key as it can be held to play the game at 30fps (this is not relating to frames displayed not the actual game running speed). *For fast forwarding text the quickest way through it is to hold B and then hit A, which requires surprisingly a lot or re-records. You'll know its optimally dones becuse the green button at the bottom of the text won't appear. *I'm not really sure about [playing ocarina songs], so I'll use my logic here, the game plays at 20fps which mean the graphics are updated every three frames which is why the input should be kept the same until the graphics are updated. The menu screen plays at 30fps which is what causes the emulation pause bug. So a note it can be played either every 3 or 6 frames although I actually think its 6, but both can be tested. *During the intro I use the A,Start,A,Start to cover every frame, and then you have to test a bit on when the optimal time to start a new file for name entry and then enter the letter A, followed by Start, which go the confirm bit and then testing when A can be optiamally to confirm you name and to select file and start a new game.

Posted: 9/19/2006 9:39 AM
(Edited: 9/19/2006 11:19 AM)

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Its a shame you can't edit PM's for gramatical and spelling errors because normally I edit a post 2-3 once its been submitted.

Posted: 9/19/2006 11:12 AM

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OmnipotentEntity

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Player (36)

Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623

AKA wrote:

Its a shame you can't edit PM's for gramatical and spelling errors because noramally I edit a post 2-3 once its been submitted.

You can if they haven't read it yet, just go to your Outbox.

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 9/26/2006 5:05 AM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

urgh... Well, unfortunately, time constraints are going to prevent me from doing this TAS. However, I will always be here to help anyone who wants to do the TAS, and I have about 100 different suggestions on subtle things to do that only a TAS can accomplish. Oh, and don't worry about my WIP. I never got past the intro scene...>_> But, until someone goes for the TAS, let's discuss the route... Firstly, here's the revised route, which is, as far as I know, consistent (but check it anyway). http://rapidshare.de/files/33633870/MMany_route2.rtf.html The only problem with this route is that it's a little too generous in time before the ranch. ie, at TAS speed, we'll be way to early for the ranch scene. Any suggestions on how to fix this? Secondly, the Lottery and random bush drops are things that can be manipulated in a TAS, where this route is for speedruns. Bushes in the field do give Red Rupees, so money can be gathered very quickly that way. Unfortunarely, I'm not sure how to work this into the route.

Posted: 9/26/2006 9:02 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

Well...I can't say I didn't see this coming. I respect your decision, but does school really take up so much time such that you cannot expend some 10-20 minutes each day? Even if you make a little progress at a time, in the end it'll really add up. I see you posting on SDA on a near-daily basis, so you can't have absolutely zero spare time...right? School/work is something that I'm sure every single one of us here has to deal with. Anyway, seeing as how you're probably the most knowledgeable MM person here, I'd still say it's best that you do the run yourself in order to eliminate the middleman when it comes to communicating those "subtle tricks." If you really don't want to do it, even if it means pushing it back until a holiday, then I don't know... I've thought about how well I'd be able to do this TAS if I were to create it, but unfortunately, I lack proficiency with the "bomb hover," a trick that must be used extensively from start to finish. Otherwise, everything else is doable...just very, very time-consuming if the goal is frame perfection, though.

Posted: 9/26/2006 12:14 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I do agree somewhat with mwl. I only spend maybe 10-20 mins making a TAS once every 2-3 days, which is maybe about 100 re-records a session. Its much more difficult to fit a speedrunning session in compared to a TAS session. No one with even the busiest schedule could struggle to fit that in at some point during the week. Although it might look bad on the face of it when you say that something took you four months to do.

Posted: 9/26/2006 3:40 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Although 10-20 minutes may sound like good time for making a TAS it is very different when taking into account that he's working with the Mupen64. If you add into the equation the amount of desyncs and trying to optimise in 3 dimensions this adds up to an astronomical amount of time. I had a go at TASing this game, however my sh*t-ass ROM couldn't even get me into Clock Town. I've played the game a few times but i have never speedran it and so i'm may not be proficient enough to do this i think. In short i know the game well but possibly not enough to do it justice and i think that this idea will be the same throughout the site. EDIT -- I'm far too tempted to have another go. After all i have rerecords, frame perfection, slowdown, an optimal route already planned. All somone needs to do is do it. I'll have a go and post a WIP from the beginning to entering Clock Town, if it is bad then i'll leave it, however, if it is good then i'll go on and finish it. I think we're all agreed that we really want to see a run of this game.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 9/26/2006 5:13 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

It's not actually as atronomical as you think, as most of the time the analougue is tilted as 100% , and the near perfect angle which can be wittled done quite quickly if you can skillfully do it e.g. when I tried ajusting blind backwalks in OoT. First I would try and establish what range the angle must be in, I'll use 78 degrees as an example here. You would probally try to do 90 first, the 45 second and from there on in decrease 90 by 5 and then increase 45 by 50 until you eventually get it. If 78 wasn't the angle then you would have to start going into decimal which is very rarely done and would probally only be done to maximize the affect of a glitch. In B+K it was quite trival to work of the maximum speed I could run at when I did a quick turn to grab a honeycomb in SM. So to conclude optimzing movements isn't the hardest part of 3D games, the frustrating element of it is having re-rewind way back when you someone points out something that could easily save time over what you done before. Tell you what Why don't I try optimize everything up to meeting the mask salesman as a Deku.

Posted: 9/26/2006 7:44 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Sorry for double posting but I've having a go at the opening stuff, but I can't seem to avoid the text where Tael refers to the old tree. On the very frame that the deku is meant to dive into the flower tael just keeps talking about Z-targeting the old tree.

Posted: 9/26/2006 8:04 PM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

I haven't been able to skip that one either.

Posted: 9/26/2006 9:33 PM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

OK heres the opening sequence of MM upto the last text before you gain control in Clock Town. Pretty optimized in my opinion, but perhaps 2-3 seconds could be gained with more optimal movement. The first backwalk you see had to be within a degree otherwise if I was out either way I would have bashed into either side of the tunnel or if I was out 2 degrees eitherway I would have missed the tunnel completely. I personally think this game when its done will be more entertaining to watch compared to the OoT speedrun, here it is it'll have to be done optimally up to getting scarecrow to skip to the Final night and then you could afford to waste time in Termina by waiting for the exact frame to get a blue rupee out of the grass. I've checked the movie no desyncs I hope someone will do the bit up where the scarecrow skips to the Final night. This is intended to be a testrun as there is great uncertainy over the route and times of days. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2118/ZELDA%20MAJORA%27S%20MASK%20%28USA%29.m64

Posted: 9/26/2006 11:12 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

Looks good, AKA. BTW, as I just discovered, it is completely impossible to skip the clock tower scene, so we might as well just wait on the clock tower platform. Although you get a cool alternate scene if you're out in the field when it activates.

Posted: 9/27/2006 12:06 AM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I continued further and got to the scarecrow, but when I re-checked the run it desynced in the Stock Pot Inn just before I was about to open the door where the story of the four giants is read. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2119/ZELDA%20MAJORA%27S%20MASK%20%28USA%29.m64 How do you solve desyncs? is it possible to do minor hex edit to prevent that.

Posted: 9/27/2006 1:35 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

AKA wrote:

How do you solve desyncs? is it possible to do minor hex edit to prevent that.

It might be possible to push the desync further back into the movie by adding or removing frames in the last screen transition that happened before the desync. But chances are it's an emulator savestate or emulation bug, and the only way to guard against such desyncs is to watch your progress every few seconds from multiple past savestates that you don't use for recording.

Posted: 9/27/2006 1:53 AM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

OK I've now experienced four desyncs now. I'll keep going till I get to the scarecrow. Fuck doing this game if this keeps happening, I'll call it quits at the scarecrow and I won't continue until Mupen patches this desync issue up.

Posted: 9/27/2006 4:32 AM

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mwl

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 636

For me, it desynchs after Tatl's Z-target message... (around frame 25-26K) =(

Posted: 9/27/2006 6:58 AM

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bkDJ

Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215

I was all excited and then this happened. http://tas.monotoli.org/mov/mm/ (400KB) Seriously though, why are you using an OpenGL plugin. I know that linux users dislike direct3D but Jabo's plugin is the only one that renders fog correctly. The whole area in my video should have a bluish tinge to it.

Posted: 9/27/2006 10:01 AM

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Mitjitsu

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Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

I experenced 5 desyncs during this but I finally got it, if anyone can get this to fully run then tell me so or most likely where did it desync. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2121/ZELDA%20MAJORA%27S%20MASK%20%28USA%29.m64 I'm uploading an AVI of it soon. If this continues I'll have experienced around 75 desyncs during the course of the game. EDIT: Here's an AVI I made. I'm not exactly sure on what to do next, but I think it goes something like http://files.filefront.com/MM_TAS__NEWavi/;5945600;;/fileinfo.html 1. Get Fairy and learn Magic 2. Get silver rupee from chest somewhere (Don't know where to get it; I need detailed directions) 3. Deposit 99 rupees 4. Get 2 green rupees and deposit them in bank 5. Exit Clock Town and get 99 rupees 6. Deposit them in Bank 7. Get wallet upgrade 8. Buy bomb bag *9. Get more rupees in Termina *10. Deposit in Bank 11. Back flip to Clock Tower and briefly wait (although the wait should be minmalied to avoid boredom) 12. Skull Kid speech and play Ocarina Basically through manipulation and efficentcy, you want to collect effectivley all the rupee's needed for the rest of the game. Please someone patch up on what I just said and remember this is a TAS and not a segmented speedrun, and also done on a dodgy emulator. Check the rom ID and make sure all the plugins are exact especially the input pluggin. I'll admit that what I've done isn't perfect and it comes mostly through frustration of desyncs so the approach do something until it looks right and doesn't desync. BTW Deku spining is hard to perfect and so is scrolling optimally through text i.e. Four Giants text.

Posted: 9/27/2006 4:17 PM

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Phallosvogel

Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334

about flower flying: why dont you fly bayckwards, doing this you avoid turning around to walk backwards after flying