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Posted: 3/28/2009 4:15 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (604)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
ok, I found a way to save that one bomb, so we leave ST with 5 bombs and 1 bombchu now, what is exactly the number of nescessary explosives :) here's the new Wizrobe strategy and Snowhead Bridge Room without Bombs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fr0cXqXNgM we'll finish the run with 0 bombs and 0 bombchus now ;)
Posted: 3/28/2009 4:22 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Nice one. ^^
Get last Zora Egg via Recoil Flip (140r; 11b; 9c) Empty Bottles again Go to Pinnacle Rock twice and get rest of Zora Eggs Learn New Wave Bossa Nova Play Zora Pots Game twice (270r; 11b; 9c)
How do you get from 140r to 270r? I get 320r. o.O
Posted: 3/28/2009 4:30 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (604)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
Slowking wrote:
Nice one. ^^
Get last Zora Egg via Recoil Flip (140r; 11b; 9c) Empty Bottles again Go to Pinnacle Rock twice and get rest of Zora Eggs Learn New Wave Bossa Nova Play Zora Pots Game twice (270r; 11b; 9c)
How do you get from 140r to 270r? I get 320r. o.O
I made the same mistake at first, too ;) think about it: we have a bag, that can carry 200 rupees. at this point, we have 70 rupees in our bag, because we played zora pots game twice before and spent 110 rupees for bombs and bombchus. so if we play pots game twice again, we get 130 rupees. 140+130=270 the number of rupees is always the number of rupees in total.
Posted: 3/28/2009 4:32 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 5:05 PM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Ah ok. I just thought we would have deposited the rupees from the first game at some point. But yeah if we dont need them all depositing them would only cost time. Good thinking. ^^ Edit: I'm through the route now and it looks very good. ^^ But we should really fidure out if we could use broken sticks on bosses. That might save a few seconds for not getting extra sticks and definatly a lot of time at the bosses, that will go down faster.
petrie911 wrote:
Assuming the rest of it is "Warp to Ikana, do STT", it seems fine. Having 20r left over is a bit annoying, but I suppose it can't be helped.
I say we jsut don't tell anybody. Since it's in the bank nobody will notice. :D
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:04 PM
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Azorae
Player (99)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
Using a different Temple order (GBT-WF-STT-SH) and bomb strategy, I got this route, which requires 2 less Zora Pot games, 1 less banker conversation, and buying 30 less bombs from the shop. This is due to collecting 6 easy-to-reach bomb drops and shooting a bat with a light arrow after finishing Stone Tower Temple. Otherwise, it is just the route MrGrunz posted. (I think..) It also saves enough bombchus to do the old version of the Woodfall Temple Boss Key Skip, which, while taking 2 extra Superflip hovers and 2 extra regular bombchu hovers, has a much shorter setup. Here it is: - First Cycle Collect 200 Rupees and Bank them, get Adult Wallet (200R) - Second Cycle Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG Slide to Great Bay area, Ess+bomb to gate, hover over (18B) (19C) Slide/Ess+bomb/slide to water, Hit owl, get Zora Mask (16B) To South Bay, Zora Pots, SoDT, Flying Zora to Fountain (160R) Bombchu into Fountain, wrong warp to Ikana, Slide to and Hit owl, get Bomb drop by tree (19B) (4C) Swim to Swamp, Slide into Lost Woods, Get Bottle (18B) Zora Slide to BigOcto, Kill BigOcto as Zora, sidestep through water to palace (17B) Get Sonata using MrGrunz's new strat, Get SoS, Get 4 Deku Sticks, Enter Temple (15B) (3C) Get Bow and deathwarp out, Warp to CT, buy 20 chus (13B) (20C) (80R) Exit via WCT, ISG slide to ledge, get 2 bomb drops, slide to Ranch (19B) (20C) Slide towards rock, ESS+pull out bomb, hover in corner next to rock into Ranch (17B) (17C) Get Bottle, SoDT at Dawn for Night of Day 2 Warp to Great Bay, get hookshot, get 2 Eggs (15B) (16C) Warp to North Bay, Deposit Eggs, Go back for last 2 eggs (OoB and Recoil Flip) (10B 13C) Warp to North Bay, Do Pinnacle Rock twice Go to GBT, Do pots again on the way, get bomb drop from pot near turtle (15B) (170R) Finish GBT, get bomb drop from pot, warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot (13B) (9C) Finish Woodfall using old skip with Superflip Hovers (5B) (0C) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 Chus (15B) (20C) (60R) Warp to Ikana, get bomb drop from bush, Complete Stone Tower (get 2 bomb drops inside) (8B) (0C) Light arrow bat for 50R (110R) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 chus (0R) (18B) (20C) Warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot, WW to and Complete Snowhead (4B) (1C) Hover Into Clock Tower (1B) (0C) Moon (0B) xxB = Number of Bombs posessed xxC = Number of Chus posessed xxR = Number of Rupees posessed Hopefully I'm not miscalculating anything. The old Woodfall Boss Key Skip with Superflip Hovers should be faster by about 20 seconds (unless I timed incorrectly), which compensates for using 3 extra Bombchus. If the older one is actually slower, the 3 extra chus can be integrated into the GBT Boss Key Skip and OoB Egg in the Fortress The 6 extra bomb drops save playing the Zora Pot Game twice (16 seconds), a conversation with the banker (10 seconds), and buying bombs from the shop 3 times (4.5 seconds) They are: 2 on the way to Ranch (cost no time if you can get to the ranch on time playing SoDT immediately after Zora Pots, if not ~1.5 seconds) 2 inside STT - 8 seconds 1 in pot outside GBT after completing - 2.5 seconds 1 outside bush on the way to ST - 2.5 seconds Total Gain of ~17.5 seconds from the bomb route, plus about 15 seconds from using the old Woodfall Boss Key Skip Unless I'm wrong, then just disregard this whole post. Just trying to contribute to the planning and discussion.
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:11 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 5:36 PM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Azorae wrote:
Using a different Temple order (GBT-WF-STT-SH) and bomb strategy, I got this route, which requires 2 less Zora Pot games, 1 less banker conversation, and buying 30 less bombs from the shop. This is due to collecting 6 easy-to-reach bomb drops and shooting a bat with a light arrow after finishing Stone Tower Temple.
I'm pretty sure shooting a bird takes just as long as doing a second zora game. Those things fly a long way after you shoot them and you have to switch the light-arrows in first, as it is my understanding that we won't use them against twinmold, due to low magic energy... I'll look at the rest of the route at once. Just wanted to get this out of the way first. ^^ Edit: Hmm getting all of those bomb drops really ads up and at one point you even interrupt an SS to get one. I'm relly not sure if it isn't faster just to get the money and buy those bombs. SL, Petrie, MrGrunz, what do you think?
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:27 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (604)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
I saw a few explosion mistakes, but none of them made anything impossible. I'll test your route later shooting a bat is not possible, because we have no magic after twimmold so the only thing changed are the bomb drops. we actually wanted to do SHT before STT, so we have fire arrows for twimmold you also need 5 bombs to get into the tower early, I think I'll try to get a route with those bomb drops and old woodfall skip. I'm also going to TAS the old woodfall skip. getting bomb drops costs time as well, that's the problem edit: those 10 bombs on the way to the ranch are perfectly on our way :)
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:48 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
MrGrunz wrote:
shooting a bat is not possible, because we have no magic after twimmold
And getting magic to shoot something takes quite some time... And I don't see any other fast way to get money at this point... So we'll have to do the 4 Zora games anyway. Does that even give us enough money, since we are constantly carrying all of our money around? Ofcourse I guess we could re-add the old bank-transfare and cut down on one Zora game. That would save 7 seconds here...
we actually wanted to do SHT before STT, so we have fire arrows for twimmold
That's another good point. The twinmold battle will take quite some time longer with only light and normal arrows...
edit: those 10 bombs on the way to the ranch are perfectly on our way :)
But we still have to break the SS to get them and set up a new one, which takes time...
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:55 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 6:07 PM)
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Azorae
Player (99)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
That's what I just though of; Twinmold. Using Normal Arrows instead of Fire Arrows would mean 6 more shots (which shouldn't be too much slower, assuming both 'molds have the same HP), but would allow shooting a bat after the temple as well as completing Snowhead last. Most of the bomb counts were hastily calculated, I just wanted to know a rough route that used the drops over Zora pots/buying them. The interrupted superslide is stopped right next to a cliff, so you'd have to stop it anyways. You're right about the bat, although because of the rupee situation, doing the Zora Pots game a third time would leave us 20R short and require a bank conversation. So, If we can switch to Light arrows, shoot the bat, and grab the rupee within about 18 seconds, we're golden. Edit: In Petrie's vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AzhiL_3pM, I'm horrible at making hyperlinks) The red Twinmold takes (from the first shot hitting to the last shot killing it with normal arrows) about 8 seconds. The blue one dies to fire arrows in about 10. (If it didn't tunnel, it would take about 6 seconds due to the slow firing time on fire arrows.) Since the Fire Arrows have the equipping animation in the pause screen, it would be very close to the same. Using normal arrows for both would also allow firing at red while blue tunnels, which cost Petrie about 4 seconds.
Posted: 3/28/2009 6:06 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Azorae wrote:
The interrupted superslide is stopped right next to a cliff, so you'd have to stop it anyways.
But you could probably continue an ISS after flipping over the cliff. Well I think the main problem is still twinmold. If he gets the chance to dive in the sand one more time than with fire arrows, the battle will take a long time... Maybe somebody can TAS the battle with and without fire arrows? *unauffällig zu MrGrunz schiel*
Posted: 3/28/2009 6:11 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 8:41 PM)
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Azorae
Player (99)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
Slowking wrote:
But you could probably continue an ISS after flipping over the cliff.
It'd have horrible speed from just a normal backflip, and you'd be flipping (or sidehopping would probably be faster) over it anyways. The time lost is negligible, and it's on the way to the Ranch which we may be early for anyways. Edit: If you watch Mukki's run carefully, after the STT finish cutscene, Link is dropped right next to a tree with a bat almost directly between him and the tree. If you're able to pin this bat to the tree with a light arrow (which I've just tested possible on a completed file without the end cutscene) You can get the rupee to land literally 2 sidehops away, another plus for STT->Snowhead Also, you're right about the 10 rupees. The Zora pots game is quite a few seconds out of the way so that will almost certainly make it faster. Good catch. I assume you want to do 2 games back to back right before GBT then?
Posted: 3/28/2009 6:18 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Ok true you got me there. :D Well let's see what MrGrunz comes up with. But so far your route really looks slightly faster (probably about 30 seconds since those bomb drops really add up). But somebody had to play devils advocate here, it's the only way to find holes, imo. :D Edit: Two other things... If we could get 10r from somewhere along the way we could skip the first zora bottle game entirely. That would save the walking over there, which isn't the fastest as a zora... And the skulltullas in woodfall drop bombs. They are on the way and it might be usefull. Edit: They also drop 5r. So if we kill them both we could skip the first Zora Game... Edit: Uh even better. The bushes at the entrance of the Woods of Mistery drop 5r. You can probably collect 10r while you are waiting for the bomb to explode...
Posted: 3/28/2009 8:11 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (604)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
I'm going to cominated both routes together to find the best one. I'll do that tomorrow the blue and the red mold have a different health. fire arrows + normal arrows is the best strategy and saves probably around 10 seconds ;) I also can't see anything, that makes snowhead faster if we do it as the last temple damn it, swordless TAS will be so awesome =)
Posted: 3/28/2009 8:17 PM
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Azorae
Player (99)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
I just tested Twinmold, and they both seem to die to 10 normal arrows. If the Blue one indeed has enough more health to make the fight more than 10 seconds longer, Snowhead -> STT will be the best option. But for now, Doing Snowhead first would mean an extra 10 bombs required, which means a loss of ~9.5 second from Zora pots and buying bombs, which isn't made worthwhile in STT because of the lack of use of Fire arrows. Also, Light Arrows may make the first Wizrobe battle in Snowhead faster (or may not, if it's fixed turns)
Posted: 3/28/2009 8:21 PM
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MrGrunz
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Joined: 2/8/2009
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you can't beat wizrobe in one cycle, so deku stick and arrows are the best choice there As I said already, I'm going to test a lot of things tomorrow Hopefully, Petrie will come here and tell us everything about Twimmold, so we know, what we have to do and what options we have. it's just awesome, how we try to save every second we can :) here's the new deku palace strategy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxDcMfwTMuM 1. use a Bombchu for the first hover. we have a few chus, we can waste 2. we have zora mask, so we can simply jump over to the ledge instead of deku fyling 3. there are a few pixels, that allow you to do the last hover with only one bomb. it's a lot harder than it looks like. I had just luck with this discovery, because it's mainly up to your position, if you get up there with only one bomb hover ;)
Posted: 3/28/2009 8:28 PM
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petrie911
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
^If we still have 1 extra chu, why not use it to hover over to the fence instead of jumping. If it takes 2 chus to do that, we can use a bomb to hover to the low fence instead. As for arrow damage to Twinmold, here's how it works Arrows--2 damage to both Fire Arrows--2 damage to Red, 6 damage to Blue Ice Arrows--6 damage to Red, 2 damage to Blue Light Arrows--4 damage to both They both have 20 HP.
Posted: 3/28/2009 10:22 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Well do we need magic any time before in STT except for turning it? If not it should suffice to fire one more light arrow after the twinmold battle even if we use fire arrows...
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:20 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (604)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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Slowking wrote:
Well do we need magic any time before in STT except for turning it? If not it should suffice to fire one more light arrow after the twinmold battle even if we use fire arrows...
our plan is to shoot the 4 fire arrows and after that we want to have no magic anymore, so we don't have to equip the normal bow to shoot normal arrows ;) and petrie, I had the same idea already. we have 3 explosives to waste, but if we aren't able to damage us enough before woodfall, we would need 2 of those explosives
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:41 AM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
And where do we waste all this magic? I mean we don't have the goron mask anymore. Sound to me like it will cost time, rather than save it. Btw. I found a proble. We need a bomb once we are in the moon to SS. Otherwise it will take us ages to get to majoras mask.
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:24 PM
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MrGrunz
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Slowking wrote:
And where do we waste all this magic? I mean we don't have the goron mask anymore. Sound to me like it will cost time, rather than save it. Btw. I found a proble. We need a bomb once we are in the moon to SS. Otherwise it will take us ages to get to majoras mask.
that bomb was the bomb I had to save anywhere and for my route, I saved it in the snowhead bridge room ;) we need 6 explosives after the last temple we waste the magic while swimming as zora link over to the small key chest ;) edit: Azorae was right! woodfall boss key skip takes 8 mega flips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapdfKkd3sI&feature=channel_page let's get the route done :)
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:08 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2009 2:11 PM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
MrGrunz wrote:
we waste the magic while swimming as zora link over to the small key chest ;)
Well if e need the 50r at the end, we need the 50r at the end. Nothing we can do about it. Or can we get the 50r somewhere before? Maybe right after we inverted the tower?
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:11 PM
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MrGrunz
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Joined: 2/8/2009
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I want to figure out a route, that beats SHT before STT and skips the banker conversation, so I'll have to leave STT with 6 explosives, what my route did :/
Posted: 3/29/2009 5:09 PM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
MrGrunz wrote:
our plan is to shoot the 4 fire arrows and after that we want to have no magic anymore, so we don't have to equip the normal bow to shoot normal arrows ;)
Wouldn't 3 fire arrows + normal arrows be faster?
Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
Posted: 3/29/2009 5:52 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2009 6:04 PM)
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Azorae
Player (99)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
Snowhead temple will, at best, leave us 8 bombs and 0 bombchus. Then we'd have to buy 10 more bombs and 20 more chus for STT, and since we we only have 70 Rupees at that point, we need to find 40 more rupees. (we have the bat outside of STT if we do STT first). If that way to get 40 rupees takes less time than the extra time on Twinmold without fire arrows and the extra time shooting the bat outside the temple, then Snowhead first would be faster. Keep in mind, however, that collecting these rupees before buying bombs and chus for Snowhead/Stone Tower would require 2 bank conversations (deposit and withdrawl), because we are restricted to collecting 20 rupees on top of the 180 from the Zora Pots game. We basically need to find 40 rupees between buying bombs and chus for Snowhead and buying bombs and chus for Stone Tower, and do it in less than 10 seconds (being generous - I still believe that Twinmold with normal arrows would be just as fast.) EDIT: Comment regarding your optimized old Woodfall Key Skip video: Since we're buying 20 chus right after we complete the Woodfall temple, it would be better to enter the door with 2 chu hovers and a normal backflip instead of the superflip (that's why, in my route, I used 8 bombs and 9 chus for this skip) It also seems to be faster by at least 15 seconds, not counting the rather long room before Gekko's. This is at the cost of 5 chu hovers earlier, basically nullifying the time saved during the actual skip, but we save the time getting into the room (which, from Mukki's run, appears to be about 25 seconds)
Posted: 3/29/2009 5:55 PM
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MrGrunz
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Joined: 2/8/2009
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JSmith wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
our plan is to shoot the 4 fire arrows and after that we want to have no magic anymore, so we don't have to equip the normal bow to shoot normal arrows ;)
Wouldn't 3 fire arrows + normal arrows be faster?
good point I think so
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