Topic by MrGrunz

Posted: 3/29/2009 5:58 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Azorae wrote:

Snowhead temple will, at best, leave us 8 bombs and 0 bombchus. Then we'd have to buy 10 more bombs and 20 more chus for STT, and since we we only have 70 Rupees at that point, we need to find 40 more rupees. (we have the bat outside of STT if we do STT first). If that way to get 40 rupees takes less time than the extra time on Twinmold without fire arrows and the extra time shooting the bat outside the temple, then Snowhead first would be faster. Keep in mind, however, that collecting these rupees before buying bombs and chus for Snowhead/Stone Tower would require 2 bank conversations (deposit and withdrawl), because we are restricted to collecting 20 rupees on top of the 180 from the Zora Pots game. We basically need to find 40 rupees between buying bombs and chus for Snowhead and buying bombs and chus for Stone Tower, and do it in less than 10 seconds (being generous - I still believe that Twinmold with normal arrows would be just as fast.)

we have no route yet, just ideas using normal arrows would be only 2-4 seconds slower, what is not a big deal, but then again, you have to wait for a guay, shoot it, walk over to the big rupee and if you think about it, another pots game would be as fast ;)

Posted: 3/29/2009 6:08 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

MrGrunz wrote:

you have to wait for a guay, shoot it, walk over to the big rupee and if you think about it, another pots game would be as fast ;)

You should spawn after completing STT right next to a guay that you can immediately turn to and shoot into the tree right next to you. The whole ordeal takes about 3 seconds. Also, another pots game would not work, for the reasons I stated. The 40 rupees need to come between the 2 purchases before Snowhead and STT, and we can do this very quickly and easily with the bat outside STT. There is, however, no quick way to get 40+ rupees after Snowhead. Any other time would require you to deposit 20 or more, then withdraw the same ammount, costing 20 seconds. If Twinmold indeed only loses 4 seconds if killed with normal arrows, then I am almost certain STT->Snowhead is faster.

Posted: 3/29/2009 6:47 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Azorae wrote:

MrGrunz wrote:
you have to wait for a guay, shoot it, walk over to the big rupee and if you think about it, another pots game would be as fast ;)
You should spawn after completing STT right next to a guay that you can immediately turn to and shoot into the tree right next to you. The whole ordeal takes about 3 seconds. Also, another pots game would not work, for the reasons I stated. The 40 rupees need to come between the 2 purchases before Snowhead and STT, and we can do this very quickly and easily with the bat outside STT. There is, however, no quick way to get 40+ rupees after Snowhead. Any other time would require you to deposit 20 or more, then withdraw the same ammount, costing 20 seconds. If Twinmold indeed only loses 4 seconds if killed with normal arrows, then I am almost certain STT->Snowhead is faster.

it's just sick, how all those tricks changed the route completely :D one month ago, we had this temple order: SHT-STT-WT-GBT

Posted: 3/29/2009 8:24 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2009 8:53 PM)

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Here's a video of how we'd get the 50 Rupees after STT if we do STT first: YouTube This was done after the first completion of STT on a new file. It takes about 2.5 seconds extra, with about 2 extra seconds to equip the light arrow. This means Twinmold would have to be at least 15 seconds faster with fire arrows for SHT to be faster first, which doesn't seem to be the case. Like you said, Twinmold should take, maximum, an extra 4.5 seconds, so we need to find 40+ rupees that only take 9 seconds after we buy chus for SHT. If we can't, STT first is faster. EDIT: What is the exact number we need for Snowhead Temple, not including the FFWW and Lullaby Skip? (Those 2 seem to be 5 bombs 15 chus total)

Posted: 3/29/2009 8:50 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

all we do between SHT and STT is warping to clock tower and buying chus, so there can't be any way to get 50 rupees I'll correct the wrong explosive things in your route now and if everything works, we have the perfect route, I think good job Azorae with all this =)

Posted: 3/29/2009 8:52 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

In relation to the 100% route, we have a small problem. The Bio Baba heart piece can only be gotted with the Zora mask, but there doesn't seem to be a good place to put it. Perhaps while we're gathering rupees in Termina Field on cycle 4? Any better ideas?

Posted: 3/29/2009 9:09 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

what the heck is the bio baba?

Posted: 3/29/2009 9:35 PM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 4:40 AM)

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

This is what I've got so far... - First Cycle Collect 200 Rupees and Bank them, get Adult Wallet (200R) - Second Cycle SoDT when you are 9 and a half in-game hours away from the Ranch houses (Somewhere between the start of the cycle and equipping the Zora Mask) Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG Slide to Great Bay area, take out bomb while ESSing to the gate and hover over (18B) (19C) Slide, ESS to water, Hit owl, get Zora Mask (17B) Slide to South Bay, Flying Zora to Fountain (16B) Bombchu into Fountain, wrong warp to Ikana, Slide to and Hit owl, get Bomb drop by tree (18B) (5C) Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, get 10 Rupees, ESS through Woods, get Bottle (17B) (80R) Zora Slide to BigOcto, Kill BigOcto as Zora, sidestep through water to palace (16B) Get Sonata using new strat + 3 hovers instead of Zora Jump (if possible), Get SoS, Get 4 Deku Sticks, Enter Temple (14B) (1 or 4C) Get Bow and deathwarp out, Warp to CT, buy 20 chus (11B) (20C) (0R) Exit via WCT, slide to grass near cliff, get 2 bomb drops and 20 rupees*, slide into Milk Road (19B) (20R) ISG slide to rock, pull out bomb while ESSing, hover in corner next to rock to Ranch, Slide to Houses, Get Bottle (16B) (17C) Warp to Great Bay, get hookshot, get 2 Eggs (hookshot room and first recoil flip) (13B) (16C) Warp to North Bay, Deposit Eggs, Go back for last 2 eggs (OoB and second recoil Flip) (7B 14C) Warp to North Bay, Do Pinnacle Rock, get NWBN Go to GBT, Do pots twice on the way, get bomb drop from pot near turtle (12B) (200R) Finish GBT, get bomb drop from pot, warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from pot (11B) (9C) Finish Woodfall using old skip with 7 Superflip Hovers and 2 chu hovers (3B) (0C) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 Chus (13B) (20C) (80R) Warp to Ikana, get bomb drop from bush, slide to and complete Stone Tower Temple (kill Twinmold with 20 normal arrows) (0B) (0C) Light arrow bat for 50R (130R) Warp to CT, buy 20 bombs and 20 chus (0R) (20B) (20C) Warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot, WW to and Complete Snowhead (6B) (1C) Hover Into Clock Tower (2B) (0C) Moon (1B) Updated with more accurate bomb counts. xxB = Number of Bombs posessed xxC = Number of Chus posessed xxR = Number of Rupees posessed *I found out that the bushes on the cliff can (rarely) produce red rupees. If one is manipulated fast enough, that plus the 10 extra rupees from the Lost Woods can buy 10 bombs and skip getting the 2 slow bomb drops in STT. If not, there are probably other red rupees that take less than 4 seconds, for instance, the chest inside one of the egg tanks in Pirate's Fortress. The 20 rupees can be obtained at any point after buying the bomb bag and first chus. Also, Clock Tower Early with 4 explosives for MrGrunz

Posted: 3/29/2009 9:58 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

MrGrunz wrote:

what the heck is the bio baba?

Those are those enemies that hang off of lily pads. Anyways, the HP I'm talking about is in W. Termina Field, under a rock and just outside the GB Fence.

Posted: 3/30/2009 12:34 AM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Azorae wrote:

SoDT at Dawn for Night of Day 2** **If you can get the hookshot, all 7 eggs, the NWBN, and play the Zora Pots game twice before Night of Day 2, skip playing this

Well we are done with the ranch at 5:15 which gives us 12 hours and 15 minutes to do all this. That's more than enough. ^^

*I found out that the bushes on the cliff can (rarely) produce red rupees. If one is manipulated fast enough, that plus the 10 extra rupees from the Lost Woods can buy 10 bombs and skip getting the 2 slow bomb drops in STT. If not, there are probably other red rupees that take less than 4 seconds, for instance, the chest inside one of the egg tanks in Pirate's Fortress.

Really? I can't remember ever getting one of those. But that's really cool. So let's sum up what the pros and cons of this route are: + 2 Zora games less and 1x less walking there + woodfall skip + one less bank transfare - Bomb drops - rupee drops (woods and field) - Twinmold battle without fire arrows - Shooting a bird or blue skull for 50r (depending on if it is day or night) Did I forget something? Edit: Well I tried to get a red rupee from those bushes for quite some time with no luck. Are you sure that they are dropped at night? Well even if they aren't, it's probably still faster to just get 4 blue rupees from here than 20 from a chest or those out of the way bomb drops in STT.

Posted: 3/30/2009 1:21 AM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Slowking wrote:

+ 2 Zora games less and 1x less walking there - 19 seconds total + woodfall skip ~25 seconds + one less bank transfare ~10 seconds - Bomb drops ~8 seconds - rupee drops (woods and field) ~6 seconds - Twinmold battle without fire arrows ~4 seconds - Shooting a bird or blue skull for 50r (depending on if it is day or night) ~4.5 seconds

Times added, it seems pretty clear that GBT->WFT->STT->SHT with bomb drops is fastest. Any other order would add an extra bomb run or have a longer WFT cutscene (which is why we're not doing it first, right?) Also, the guay is outside STT no matter what time it is (in the video I posted earlier, it was 3:00 AM, Night of the Second Day, which is around when we'll be there.) Plus, a bit off topic, but it has the "WTF factor" of not having anything to with the Mountain Village/Snowhead area at all for the entire run, then suddenly appearing there and completely breaking it without the mask that is normally heavily required.

Slowking wrote:

Well I tried to get a red rupee from those bushes for quite some time with no luck. Are you sure that they are dropped at night? Well even if they aren't, it's probably still faster to just get 4 blue rupees from here than 20 from a chest or those out of the way bomb drops in STT.

I've only seen it once, but yes, it was at night. I know that anecdotal evidence is usually disregarded here though so I'll try for a picture or video. But yes, 4 blue rupees would be easier to manipulate and only take an extra 2 or 3 seconds

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:39 AM

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Acheron86

Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417

Slowking wrote:

Well I tried to get a red rupee from those bushes for quite some time with no luck. Are you sure that they are dropped at night? Well even if they aren't, it's probably still faster to just get 4 blue rupees from here than 20 from a chest or those out of the way bomb drops in STT.

I know I've read before that MM has a much higher drop rate of red rupees from bushes... when Link's wallet is almost empty. Someone else around here will probably know for sure.

I will not use self-reference in my signature.

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:44 AM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 6:21 AM)

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

I tried it with an empty wallet, still no luck. Well I'll try it again later... But that's good news. At that point we'll have 0r in our Wallet. ^^ I'm still somewhat skeptical about the fact that the twinmold battle only takes 4 seconds less. I would feel better if someone could try it out (my skill-level is a little low to try it myself) Otherwise the route looks really good, a little faster than the old one and a good deal more fun. ^^ The thing is we'll be much more free in playing the song of double time. We have the following options: - upon entering GB - before pulling mikau out of the water - after pulling mikau out of the water - before hitting the owl - after getting out of the water before going to SGB The queston goes to SL. How much risk are you willing to take? Edit: On the other hand: How lang doas it take to kill that bird flying in front of the ranch entrance at a TAS level? If it's faster than 2 Zora games and one bush it might be a good alternative... And in a TAS-strategy we might want to consider that he drops rupees when you hit them and if you don't pick them up he trys to pick them up himself. At this point you might be able to get a few spin-atacks in... We can alo empty our bow at this point since we'll have plenty of time to refill arrows during the alien hunt. Those bushes in the ranch only drop arrows and magic... Edit: Well it takes 12 arrows to kill him, so I estimate it takes about 10 seconds and he is directly on our way. That makes him WAY faster than 2x Zora game + 20r from bush. Looks like we are skipping the Zora game completely in this run. o.O Though he is invincible for a little time after you hit him. at 12 hits that ads up. Could somebody try it out? ^^

Posted: 3/30/2009 6:18 AM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

I've gotten red rupees from bushes before as well. They seem very rare. I've also gotten them from rolling snowballs, but they have the same dropset as bushes IIRC. The Takkuri (bird outside the ranch) has 24 HP. The most you'll be able to do to him is Deku stick jumpslashes/Elemental Arrows (4 damage) or arrows/jumpslashes/boomerangs/Hookshot (2 damage).

Posted: 3/30/2009 6:53 AM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

I think the bird will take about 12-14 seconds since he is invincible for about 1 second after a hit. Imo it's not practical to switch Deku sticks in for it. We'll switch the bow in anyway, so we won't loose any time on that... The biggest problem I see is that we will have to break the SS for it. Which could take to mch time. Though two zora games take 20-25 seconds, since you have to walk thre and walk away... Maybe we could shoot him out of an ISS. This way we might be able to start shooting him shortly after we start a new slide after the cliff and we could slide into the milk road... (I hope shooting out of ISS even works and I'm not talking total crap here XD )

Posted: 3/30/2009 2:07 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

argh, I'm so close to figure out a mask cutscence skip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAftf9a9fvw if we could pull this off, we would be able to save 3-4 minutes by skipping the cutscence and we would be also able to complete woodfall in one trip azorae, nice route, but there are still a few explosion mistakes. I'll corect them now

Posted: 3/30/2009 2:47 PM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 3:15 PM)

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Afaik we don't beat woodfall in one go since we don't have the explosives / hookshot to do it fast. Otherwise it would probably still be faster to watch the longer cutscene and do woodfall in one go instead of splitting it... Edit:

Get SoS, Get 4 Deku Sticks, Enter Temple (14B) (1 or 4C)

Are those 4C before or after we skip the gap in the fire carousel room? If they are after we are pretty close to be able to do woodfall in one go. I highly doubt that the cutscene will be longer than a deathwarp 2SoS extra and going through half the temple twice... At the moment we are wasting Chus, for example at the Deku temple. If we would save those, I'm pretty sure we could make it. ^^

Posted: 3/30/2009 3:07 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Edit: Sorry accidentally quoted myself instead of editing...

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:29 PM

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Cpadolf

Skilled player (1432)

Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden

MrGrunz wrote:

argh, I'm so close to figure out a mask cutscence skip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAftf9a9fvw

What exactly is it that you are trying to do there? I didn't understand much of the video.

Agare Bagare Kopparslagare

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:39 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

he's trying to kill himself while activating the cutscene. But I'm not sure if it'll work. I tried something similar once... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_riLD9iJOTw&feature=channel_page

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:43 PM

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Wyster

Active player (302)

Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504

I assume you already tried resets?

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:48 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

You can't reset in MM. It only saves when you timetravel, so you would have to do the whole cycle again... Btw. I timed out Tayas speach after woodfall and it's about 38 seconds long. That's faster than two songs of soaring. So doing woodfall in one go is definatly faster if we have enough Chus to do the bosskey skip.

Posted: 3/30/2009 4:59 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

petrie911 wrote:

he's trying to kill himself while activating the cutscene. But I'm not sure if it'll work. I tried something similar once... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_riLD9iJOTw&feature=channel_page

yeah, but as you can see, I was already in the loading zone of the cutscence and was able to die, so this could be possible ;)

Slowking wrote:

You can't reset in MM. It only saves when you timetravel, so you would have to do the whole cycle again... Btw. I timed out Tayas speach after woodfall and it's about 38 seconds long. That's faster than two songs of soaring. So doing woodfall in one go is definatly faster if we have enough Chus to do the bosskey skip.

hmm, I hope, that this doesn't turn out to be useful, because it is a lot more entertaining to not watch the cutscence ;)

Posted: 3/30/2009 5:07 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

The cutscene is obscenely long anyway. Those 40 seconds that Taya talks won't make a difference for the viewer. I'm waiting for your new bomb route. That will show if we have enough Chus left... I think we could even use bombs two times instead of Chus at the FFWW and still have a solid time gain if we can do the bosskey skip in doing so... Btw. since we are probably not going to do the Zora game at all anymore we can move GBT freely around, just as we need it. Keep that in mind. ^^ Edit: Btw. we can't skip the first cutscene anyway since we learn the giants song in there. So even if you figure out a way to skip cutscenes, it won't help with woodfall.

Posted: 3/30/2009 5:23 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

GBT is a good first temple, because all we need are a few bombs and bombchus to beat it I doubt, that woodfall in one trip saves that much time. all it skips are 2 SoS, what are 45 seconds or something + flying over to the temple. so let's compare it: woodfall in 2 parts: 55 seconds cutscence: 38 seconds 17 seconds saved. another SoS to get bombchus is definately not worth, because that would make it slower. if we use bomb hovers to have more bombchus for the skip, this would reduce the saved time a lot. I also highly doubt, that we have enough explosives. I'm totally against this way of beating woodfall temple, because it rips the "WTF" of leaving woodfall temple and watching the fairy cutscence isn't really interesting.