Topic by MrGrunz

Posted: 6/5/2009 11:57 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

as we have so many explosives to waste between shopping 2 and 3, I'm TASing Pirate's Fortress now and my goal is to use as many explosives as possible :D there's nothing cooler than trying to get creative at speed running =) will be uploaded next week, because I'm away for 5 days like slowking said already ;)

Posted: 6/7/2009 12:55 AM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

I'm thinking this duplication thing could be used with the Letter to Mama. You get a bottle of Chateau for it if you talk to Madame Aroma, so you might be able to duplicate it then. This would mean we could cut out a cycle from the 100% route, which would be huge.

Posted: 6/7/2009 8:31 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Since there's no confirmation message like the sale finalization in the curiosity shop when you give the postman/Madame Aroma the letter, you can't pause and switch after selecting it. So no, you can't use duplication to skip the fourth cycle.

Posted: 6/8/2009 3:09 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

After testing it, that's not the problem. You actually can pause before Madame Aroma gives you the bottle. The problem is that the game deducts the item from your inventory as soon as you close the dialog box, instead of waiting a frame like at the Curio Shop. I suspect that this is either because the item is replaced and not consumed, or because the Curio Shop can give different rewards depending on the item. A similar thing happens with the title deeds, but you can't pause with those.

Posted: 6/12/2009 6:49 PM

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Azorae

Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Alright, I think I've come to a conclusion. Unless I'm mistaken, it takes 9 extra pauses to duplicate a bottle over an empty C-slot (26 pauses with 2 available slots vs 17 pauses with 3 slots.) Each pause takes about 2.5-3 seconds (depending on what is equipped), meaning an extra 24-25 seconds of pause time. The best time to get the Bremen Mask would be right before duplicating the bottles, which hopefully means it is past 6 PM when we finish Woodfall. If it isn't, that means that we would need to play the SoDT no matter which route we're using. If it is, we don't have to use the SoDT for either, so the time to play the SoDT should not be accounted for in the difference. Keep in mind that if the SoDT is required it is better to play it early, around the same time as you play the Song of Healing for the Zora Mask. This prevents the withdrawl fee at the bank and lets us enter the shop without using bombchus. Therefore, to find out which is faster we: Take the difference in times between going straight from the owl after warping and going to the Curiosity shop to find the total time lost for collecting the Bremen Mask (Owl -> Bremen Mask -> Curiosity Shop) minus (Owl -> Curiosity Shop) I believe the difference to be very close to 25 seconds Take the total time lost by pausing and equipping items 9 extra times. I again believe this to be close to 25 seconds. Whichever route loses the least time is obviously the faster one. The routes are within seconds of each other, which makes this all the more difficult. More accurate numbers and tests can be a definate help.

Posted: 6/13/2009 2:12 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Speed test, that proves, that bremen mask is the quickest item: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dccRZ1k4J4

Posted: 6/13/2009 11:47 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

And again the finished route brought to you by MrGrunz, Slowking and Azorae: First Cycle get 2r at the very beginning on your sidehop route to the wooden stumps (2r) hear grandmas storys twice and dance with the scarecrow, deposit the 2r get to ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (101r) get to ECT, get fairy, do half a run through termina field to NCT, get 99r from 36 bushes, get magic, deposit the rupees (200r) get to clock tower, wait for 12 O'clock, get ocarina and SoT, timetravel Second Cycle Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Hover over Fence with Bomb and Chu, Let Chu explode on fence and HISS with it to GB (18B) (18C) ISS to Water, Hit Owl, Get Zora Mask, Play SoDT, Leaver Slide to South Bay (17B) (18C) Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, New Fairy Fountain Strat (13B) (9C) SS to Owl, Hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with Bomb down to River, Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, Get 10 Rupees, ISS from Bomb, Get Bottle (15B) (9C) ISS to Octo, Sidehops to Deku Palace, ISG-ISS past Deku Guards, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Use old Zora Jump Strat, Get Sonata + SoS (11B) (9C) Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot + deku nuts on the way to Woodfall Temple, Enter Temple Mega Flips past Gap with 2 Bomb Hovers and 1 Mega Flip, Kill Lizarfos with Jumpslash Strat, Get Bow (8B) (9C) Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Mega Flips, Kill Odolwa (0B) (1C) Warp to CT, Let Chu explode at owl and HISS to Pool, Get Bremen Mask, Enter Curiosity Shop, Create 3 new bottles with Bremen Mask, deku Mask and Deku Nuts, Buy 20 Bombs and 20 Bombchus (20R) (20B) (20C) Warp to GB, Enter Pirate's Fortress, Swim as quickly as possible to Pirate boat and jump on it, jump on land and pull out bomb while jumping, ISG-HISS, pull out Bomb while sliding, Hover past gap with 1 Mega Flip and 1 Bombchu Hover, Enter main area (18B) (18C) Climb Ladder, Bombchu Superslide, Skip cutscence, Get Hookshot (17B) (17C) Skip second Pirate Battle with Bombchu Recoil Flip, Skip 3rd Pirate Battle normal jump, Do 4th Battle normally, Deposit Eggs, Get the rest of the eggs from Pinnacle Rock, Learn New Wave Bossa Nova (17B) (16C) Play Zora Pots Game one time, Go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs from Pot, Enter GBT (110R) (20B) (16C) Mega Flip past Gap, HISS, Boss Key Skip with Bomb Staircase, 2 Mega Flips combined with 1 Bombchu Hover, Kill Gyorg + get 1 heart damage from Gyorg, Get 5 Bombs from pot (18B) (11C) Get back to GBFF, Get 4 Deku Nuts from Palm Tree, Fairy Fountain Wrong Warp with new Strat, ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (13B) (3C) Block Skip, Bomb Long Jump Strat in Bridge Room and kill ice enemy with sword, Scarecrow Song Skip, 2 Recoil flip with Bombs, Beat Wizrobe Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb Damage, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to Torch (9B) (3C) Hookshot other Torch, Mega Flip past Gap, HISS strategy with Bomb for Snowballs (6B) (2C) Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goth with Superslide into cutscence (2B) (0C) Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus + 10 Bombs, Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Get 5 Bombs from plant, HISS up to Stone Tower (20B) (20C) Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (10B) (13C) HISS over to door, Bomb Staircase + Forwards Backflip strategy past Sun Block, Get small key and minimize Magic Meter, so you can only use 4 Fire Arrows anymore (7B) (10C) Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab Trick past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from enemys + 1/2 Heart Damage from enemy, Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with Infinte Deku Stick from Bomb, Death Warp with Bombchu (12B) (6C) Inverted Stone Tower with Recoil Flip of Bombchu and Sidehop to shoot eye, Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip, Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat (7B) (2C) Warp to CT, Clock Tower early with Bomb Staircase and 2 Bombchu Hovers (5B) (0C) SS to Kid, Kill 1+2 Cycle of Majora normally, Kill 3rd Cycle of Majora with Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb (3B) (0C) Changes: - HISS to GB with Bombchu and Bomb HISS in Lost Woods - Woodfall Temple Hover with 2 Bomb Hovers and 1 Mega Flip to skip equipping Bombchus and to HISS with the saved Chu later - Skipping Romani Ranch - Bottle Duplication to beat PF and Pinnacle in one Trip - Bremen Mask after Woodfall Temple - 4 Deku Nuts from Palm Tree before second Wrong Warp - Skipping both Bomb Drops at the second Zora Pots Game - 1 Bombchu Superslides in Pirate's Fortress - Different Strategy in first part of Pirate's Fortress - More Damage from Gyorg

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:23 AM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Like promised I went over the route. Looks really good ^^ I just noticed one problem. Since we are not drinking the red potion anymore we have to know with how much damage we get to the Deku Palace to calculate how much damage we have to take. If we take too much we might even have to get hearts or a fairy...

Posted: 6/14/2009 4:05 AM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

We could always just refill at a fairy fountain. We go to those a few times.

Posted: 6/14/2009 10:18 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

the fairy fountain takes too much time to refil hearts if we don't want to go through half an hour of beeping, we have to have at least 1 3/4 hearts, because we get half an heart of damage at the wizrobe battle. I highly doubt, that we'll have 1 3/4 hearts, but I'll test it. the best thing is, that swordless breaks all 3 pots after playing the sonata, because he gets the stick and the nuts from them anyways, so he can manipulate the fairy from the 3rd pot to fly directly next to him, so he doesn't loose any time. I've noticed, that Gyorg is actually a bad way to damage link, because you're in the water. if I remember right, you loose control over link for 2-3 seconds for each hit, so alltogether, we would loose there 5-6 seconds. any idea for a better place to damage link?

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:51 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

Yeah the fairy from the woodfall pots is what I meant. However if we have enough hearts to live through the wizrobe battle we might just be able to get a heart from the snowballs after him. Then we don't have to take as much damage afterwards.

Posted: 6/14/2009 4:12 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

I've noticed, that if you get hit by an enemy in one of the tanks and you're close to the ledge, link grabs the ledge earlier. I tryed to manipulate the enemy, but I wasn't able to. swordless should be able to do it. if so, we could actually use damage to our advantage ;)

Posted: 6/14/2009 7:03 PM

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JSmith

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428

MrGrunz wrote:

I've noticed, that Gyorg is actually a bad way to damage link, because you're in the water. if I remember right, you loose control over link for 2-3 seconds for each hit, so alltogether, we would loose there 5-6 seconds. any idea for a better place to damage link?

We have a spare bomb, right? Why can't we just drop a bomb during the Wizrobe battle timed to blow us up immediately afterwards? (bonus: we get to FISS off it)

Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

Posted: 6/15/2009 1:12 AM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

I say let Sl do his run up until the Deku palace and then we'll see how much health he has left.

Posted: 6/15/2009 1:02 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

JSmith wrote:

MrGrunz wrote:
I've noticed, that Gyorg is actually a bad way to damage link, because you're in the water. if I remember right, you loose control over link for 2-3 seconds for each hit, so alltogether, we would loose there 5-6 seconds. any idea for a better place to damage link?
We have a spare bomb, right? Why can't we just drop a bomb during the Wizrobe battle timed to blow us up immediately afterwards? (bonus: we get to FISS off it)

forward infinite superslides aren't as quick as normal backwalking, what makes the whole FISS thing pointless.

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:21 AM

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snorlax

He/Him

Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCrf-v0sSsc Maybe the rupee route will be changing.

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:53 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

yep, a little bit we don't get the rupees in the lost woods anymore and we use a bombchu hyper endless superslide in the lost woods pirate's fortress TAS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2GoF2Gqvwk&feature=channel_page

Posted: 6/16/2009 5:49 PM

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Wyster

Active player (302)

Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504

One of the most entertaining and awesome segment of TAS i've ever seen ^^ Can you superslide before/after shooting the beehive?

Posted: 6/17/2009 12:54 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

no, sadly not you need at least about 38 frames or at least something like this to roll after the shoot, but there are only 21 or something and thanks, that you like my stuff :)

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:45 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

MrGrunz wrote:

yep, a little bit we don't get the rupees in the lost woods anymore and we use a bombchu hyper endless superslide in the lost woods feature=channel_page

I don't think we have the Chu left to do it, but one less luck manipulation is always a good thing.

Posted: 6/17/2009 9:27 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

we simply change the chu and the bomb from the woods and the HISS to GB :P

Posted: 6/17/2009 9:33 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

hmm good idea. you should probably put that in the route as this part will come up pretty soon. Btw. could you test out if you can save more money in a TAS through that trick. I suppose even if we save like 50r it won't help us, but you never know...

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:36 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

how real men beat great bay temple: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXgcQY0WYxg

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:55 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Of course, in this case "real men" are little boys with magical masks and way too much knowledge of physics, but that's a minor detail. :) Looking good!

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/21/2009 2:39 PM

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Captain_Forehead

Player (58)

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 872
Location: Utah

Dang it MrGrunz! All of your TASes are making me even more anxious to see what the actual speedrun will be like. Both any and 100%!