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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:01 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Rick wrote:
...desynch on the movie...
I think you're probably using the wrong ROM if that's happening for you with this movie...
Posted: 10/5/2005 4:04 AM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
I'm using the right ROM. It didn't desynch in the first version either, but for some reason it does in the second and third. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to double-check. tool, what version of the ROM are you using?
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 10/5/2005 4:38 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Uh, well actually I forgot that it should be as simple as making sure the checksum matches in FCEU. If you don't see a mismatching checksum in red when you go to play the movie, then you have the right ROM. GoodNES said it was "Who Framed Roger Rabbit (U).nes" for me.
Posted: 10/5/2005 4:44 AM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
That's the same one I've been using. The checksum matches with me. I dunno, things just have a bad habit of desynching on me even though the checksum matches and I really don't know why. I think that would be a conversation for PMs or AIM or something.
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/13/2008 4:26 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
It's been a few years since this game was attempted, eh? Well, I'm thinking of doing it, and I think that if meticulously planned and executed, a time of under five minutes could be possible. There's a few things that I'd need that I'd have to start doing the TAS thing though; Maps of everything (preferably in screenshot format). There's none over at vgatlas.com, I've checked. Memory addresses. The second most important thing. See, what I'd need to do is find the memory addresses for each building in my route, as well as find the memory addresses to the item placement, and what the item is. So if say, I need to go to Building #14 to get the Spring Shoes, I'd need to know what that is (Say, 0D on the items table), then find the memory address for building #14, and compare 'em. I'm also hoping for a couple of glitches that would probably save time. One would be to cross a gap without the Spring Shoes. It would save a good amount of time because I wouldn't have to go out of my way to get them, though it'd be a major route adjustment since I wouldn't be able to use "Death as Shortcut". Getting Benny the Cab as soon as possible would save some time as well. If I can get some help with the maps and memory addresses, I'll start trying. And if this is a boring game to TAS, well...it's not a long one, and I'll make it as entertaining as possible. -EDIT- Searching one of my favorite Game Genie/Pro Action Replay sites, I found a code for FCEU that's apparantly a building modifier. 0090:XX is the code. I'll look into this later.
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/13/2008 7:07 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Yeah, I think a movie of this game would be cool... Not sure what you mean about items and buildings though: is item placement random, and you are looking for a way to see where they are without actually having to find them?
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 8/13/2008 8:34 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
Both, actually. The initial item placement, as it's so far known, is placed depending on the frame you press "Start" on. There's possibly some other factors involved in it, but I don't know how that would roll yet. What I want to know is if the items that are necessary for game completion are in spots where I don't have to go running around the city to find them. If I can get everything I need in just a few particular areas rather than scattered all over the place, it'll save a lot of time. Which is why I need that map so badly. I need it for route-planning purposes. I could probably make one if I could find out what the code is to permanently keep the the weasels at bay on the map screen (They come about once a minute or so).
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/13/2008 9:33 PM
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alden
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
Are there any items that tend to be closer at the start? Once you find an address for one I would venture that the others will be close by in RAM. But even getting one would be a rather tedious task of going out to find the item and then doing a comparison. Well, maybe not. If the game stores the location of an item it would be that way. If the game stores the item content of a location, it would be significantly easier. Only one way to find out I suppose :)
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Posted: 8/13/2008 9:37 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
Right. I can't exactly say what there is for items that tend to appear closer to the start. The only item that is continuously around is the Wallet outside of Valiant's Office (And inside too, it's a little built-in trick to help you with buying things at the store), so we'd just have to find out the addresses of the other items. Once we know where the items are via their memory locations, it'll make things a lot easier and save a lot of needless in-game searching.
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/13/2008 11:07 PM
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Dwedit
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of useless items which always spawn in exactly the same place every game.
Posted: 8/13/2008 11:54 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
There are, actually. I did some research for tool23 a while back when he did a run of this game (which sadly, was fed to a grue). I found out that these items were necessary: REQUIRED ITEMS - Dynamite (To blow up the brick wall that leads into Toontown) - Detonator (To blow up the brick wall that leads into Toontown) - Spring Shoes (Necessary to leap the pits in the caves to get will pieces) - The Will (Necessary to complete the game) - Baseball (Used to lure Stupid away from his post so you can go in and fight Judge Doom) - Whistle (Used for shortcuts and time-saving) Another one that may possibly be required is the wallet, which may be required if the store has one of these items and it's not really anywhere on the map that's convenient. If all six items can't conveniently spawn (this is lumping together the will pieces as all one item here), and five out of six do (and one's in the store), it wouldn't be that huge of a time waster to pick up the wallet and go to the store. So, now that I'm done being long-winded, yes, Dwedit, there's a lot of useless items. :p
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 8/14/2008 6:46 AM
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Mr._Kelly_R._Flewin
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 757
Rick wrote:
There are, actually. I did some research for tool23 a while back when he did a run of this game (which sadly, was fed to a grue). I found out that these items were necessary: REQUIRED ITEMS - Dynamite (To blow up the brick wall that leads into Toontown) - Detonator (To blow up the brick wall that leads into Toontown) - Spring Shoes (Necessary to leap the pits in the caves to get will pieces) - The Will (Necessary to complete the game) - Baseball (Used to lure Stupid away from his post so you can go in and fight Judge Doom) - Whistle (Used for shortcuts and time-saving) Another one that may possibly be required is the wallet, which may be required if the store has one of these items and it's not really anywhere on the map that's convenient. If all six items can't conveniently spawn (this is lumping together the will pieces as all one item here), and five out of six do (and one's in the store), it wouldn't be that huge of a time waster to pick up the wallet and go to the store. So, now that I'm done being long-winded, yes, Dwedit, there's a lot of useless items. :p
The big thing to do is also watch Tom Votava's INSANE run on SDA. I mean that's nothing short of astounding how he makes this game bow down and call him Daddy. Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin Just another random gamer ---- <OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Posted: 8/14/2008 4:52 PM
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Rick
Former player
Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine
Ah hell, right, I almost forgot about that. Well at least you taught me one thing, Mr. Kelly R. Flewin, this game can be massively entertaining! I hope I can make it entertaining enough as my first-ever TAS. (On a side note Mr. K, I read your Kung Fu FAQ on GameFAQs while netsurfing one day, good job on that.)
http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.
Posted: 7/21/2017 8:40 PM
Post subject: Who Framed Roger Rabbit
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
I had originally created this thread in NESDEV to address this issue I am having. https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16226 I have been trying to get either Bizhawk or FCEUX (Old or New PPU) to correlate to original hardware. Bizhawk populates different values than FCUEX, and even the values differ between Old and New PPU in FCUEX. So I have three differently functioning emulators producing different outcomes despite exact same inputs, etc. Changing the Initial RAM State in FCEUX to FF, or 00, or keeping the default 00 FF, does not alter the results since these addresses are initialized by the Rom to 00. I have also observed the same results when I use my Everdrive with both the Front Loader and the Top Loader, probably since the Everdrive works the same despite the hardware. As of yet, I have not been able to correlate either Everdrive with Top or Front Loader, or original cart with either Front or Top Loader with any of these three emulator conditions. For speedrun purposes it is preferred to TAS out 1000's of variations, then mere trial and error. For TASing purposes what emulator would be acceptable since actual hardware conditions don't appear to be met. And which would be used for such a project, what would be allowed. I assume that using a Lua Script in order to write specific values into the addresses of the item spawns is not allowed for TAS projects. Any thoughts or reflections would be greatly appreciated. As mentioned there is a lot more detail in the link to NESDEV that would also be helpful to bringing you up to speed on this project. Corey
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/21/2017 9:31 PM
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link_7777
Experienced player (876)
Joined: 11/15/2010
Posts: 267
The Emulators tab has information about which emulators are accepted. For your purposes both BizHawk and FCEUX are accepted. The submission rules have all of this information, but your suspicions are correct. Modifying memory or starting from a dirty state are not allowed. You can use those things to help you debug, but your final run will need to be controller inputs only
Posted: 7/22/2017 12:45 AM
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Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3821)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2829
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
I'm having a hard time following your post, but if what you want to do is change initial RAM settings, BizHawk has a method in NESHawk to do that. Go to NES->Advanced settings-> initial RAM pattern. There you can set a pattern that will be copied throughout all of RAM at startup. For example 00000000FFFFFFFF will recreate the typical FCEUX start up pattern. Also, if you want to change individual bytes, you can use the hex editor in Tools-> Hex Editor.
Posted: 7/22/2017 5:02 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
All the details are in the link. I had stated that changing the initial RAM state did not result in different outcomes. What is causing different outcomes is whether I use Bizhawk, FCEUX (Old PPU), or FCEUX (New PPU). These three all yield different results and I want to know why. And how I many adjust something in these emulators or modify a memory address or two that would be causing it so that I can get one of these three outcomes to correlate with original hardware. This game initializes its memory so that is not the problem.
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/22/2017 6:28 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
So I have confirmed that changing the core in Bizhawk from QuickNES to NesHawk gives yet another set of values. So FCEUX(Old PPU), FCEUX(New PPU), Bizhawk(QuickNES), and Bizhawk(NesHawk) all yield different results, so four different outcomes. Once again changing the initial RAM State either in Bizhawk or FCEUX does not modify outcomes since the Rom initializes its own values. What changes this? Why such a difference between emulator outcomes? And yet none of these outcomes match original cart with Front Loader, or with Top Loader, nor use of Everdrive with Front/Top Loader. There must be a way to know why and have the ability to sync some of this. Any thoughts?
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/22/2017 6:56 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
I have also confirmed that resetting the game does not retain RNG values so it is not required to power cycle the NES in order to do RNG manipulation.
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/22/2017 7:35 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
I have also confirmed that it does not matter the hardware that you use. I have been able to get the same RNG manipulation for real cart with Top Loader, real cart with Front Loader, Everdrive with Top Loader, and Everdrive with Front Loader. All the outcomes are the same, just can't get any emulator with a TAS editor to sync with it.
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/22/2017 10:28 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
I have concluded that the state of NES emulation is not yet sufficient in order to TAS this game. It is a personal opinion of mine that it isn't the same if the emulator is not synced with the NES, and can't be reproduced on original hardware in the same way, therefore I will not TAS it. This non-sync issue will need to be corrected in the future so that emulators can be utilized to TAS 1000's of variations of this game which would otherwise take weeks. Until that day comes...
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/26/2017 8:15 AM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
Is there a way to modify how FCEUX emulates the game? https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16226&start=45#p200923
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/26/2017 1:47 PM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
Also, I am offering a $200 bounty for the person who figures out how to get outcomes to match in original hardware and an emulator with TAS such as Bizhawk and FCEUX. If interested please send me a PM, and we can discuss the details.
Chambers_N
Posted: 7/26/2017 3:05 PM
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Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3821)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2829
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
It will be basically hopeless to try to match console with FCEUX or QuickNES. NESHawk I can work with, but I would need to know what state you are trying to achieve (i.e. what does it look like on hardware that is wrong in NESHawk.) Also, have you tried Mesen? It is another very accurate emulator that behaves very slightly differently from NESHawk, maybe it will give you what you want.
Posted: 7/26/2017 7:03 PM
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CLChambers00
Joined: 7/21/2017
Posts: 54
Does Mesen have a TAS Editor and a way to watch Ram Addresses? I will write up what I am looking for later on and we can go from there. Thanks!
Chambers_N
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