1 2
6 7 8 9 10 11
Posted: 8/3/2004 1:12 AM
Quote
blip
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Deviance wrote:
find a code that reveals the game's timer so we can see whether using start-select in bonuses is worth it.
If you want to find out if doing something specific is faster, you could test it with snes9x. Record an .smv and take advantage of the frame counter display to compare frame counts. The '.' key toggles the frame counter display. Edit: Unless you're more concerned with how the game tracks time internally...
Posted: 8/3/2004 1:34 AM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
frame counts are good for testing real-time strats, but I want to know the specifics of the game's own built-in timer and whether it stops counting in certain places such as when Diddy's victory theme plays in bonus rooms. I don't think this would really work with a game genie or PAR code, but could there be a way of achieving this through some form of rom modification?
Posted: 8/3/2004 1:51 AM
Quote
blip
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Deviance wrote:
frame counts are good for testing real-time strats, but I want to know the specifics of the game's own built-in timer and whether it stops counting in certain places such as when Diddy's victory theme plays in bonus rooms
It would probably be easiest to use snes9x's built-in cheat facilities to find the address where the timer is stored, and have a peek at its value on occasion. It sounds like Michael is already working on this :) But yes, it should be possible to replace the score display, for example, with the internal value of the timer via a ROM hack.
Posted: 8/3/2004 2:19 AM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
looks like Michaels on the right track; he already found a couple useful codes for this game and the competition cartridge. If this works, it should clear up a few things and maybe even lead up to some new strats aimed at abusing the timer.
Posted: 8/3/2004 2:56 AM
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Sorry, I had to go somewhere, but I'm back home now so I'll continue searching for the proper code. Edit: Does anyone know if the timer runs while the game is paused? Edit 2: I'm not absolutely sure about this since it's kind of confusing, but I think you can tell whether the timer is running based on whether the value at address 7E0046 is changing. Edit 3: Btw, I think I remember someone suggesting that maybe the DKCCC timer starts at 5:01 since it's blocked out by the blackness. I had forgotten that Snes9x lets you look at the values at the different addresses, but I just tested it and the timer really starts at 5:00, not 5:01. Edit 4: I found two other address that seem to be somehow related to the timer, but are used for bigger units of time and change less often. I'm not sure what the difference is between these two address. The two addresses are 7E002B and 7E0047. Edit 5: Forget 7E002B, it changes while the game is paused and I'm pretty sure the timer doesn't.
Posted: 8/3/2004 4:23 AM
Quote
blip
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Good job, Michael. It looks like you've found the timer. I've tested it out and here's what I've found: 7E0046 is part of a 16-bit quantity which increases every frame. This means that 7E0046 and 7E0047 are part of the same number. When the value at 7E0046 reaches 256, 7E0046 is reset back to 0 and 7E0047 is incremented by one. This "frame counter", let's call it, gets reset after 3600 ticks, which is 60 seconds if you assume 60 frames per second. Each time 7E0046/7E0047 gets reset, the value at 7E0048 is incremented by one. This is the minutes value that you see when you go to save your game. If you change the value at this address (7E0048), you can change the amount of time on the clock. So there you have it: if the value at 7E0046/7E0047 is increasing, then the clock is running.
Posted: 8/3/2004 6:06 AM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
I've done some testing with this code and here are my results: bonus rooms and bonus victories cost time; screen fades, pausing, and map events do not.
Posted: 8/5/2004 3:29 AM
(Edited: 8/5/2004 9:19 PM)
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
It seems like Penev gave up on beating my DKCCC score, so does anyone want to compete with me in the animal bonus games? That might be a little more interesting since a lot of other people have scores for them so I would have something to compare my scores to. Edit: I just got a pathetic score somewhere in the 500s for the Rambi bonus game. Edit 2: Rambi - 632 Edit 3: Rambi - 722 (Btw, does anyone have a link to any good videos for the animal bonus games? I think I remember there being some French site that had videos but I don't have the link.) Edit 4: Rambi - 770 Edit 5: Rambi - 840 Edit 6: Rambi - 844 Edit 7: Rambi - 845 Edit 8: Rambi - 872 Edit 9: Rambi - 875 Edit 10: Rambi - 876 Edit 11: Rambi - 888
Posted: 8/5/2004 12:14 PM
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
I think the records are 860s-870s for Rambi, and 999 for the others.
Posted: 8/8/2004 2:34 AM
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I just got 906 in the Rambi bonus game, so now I'll move onto the other bonus games. Edit: I just got 916, and unlike the 906, this time I remembered to record it, so I'll be uploading the zmv soon. Edit 2: Expresso - 802 Edit 3: Expresso - 888 Edit 4: Expresso - 950 Edit 5: Expresso - 962 Edit 6: Expresso - 974 Edit 7: Expresso - 994 Edit 8: Expresso - 999 (time to move onto another bonus game now) Edit 9: Winky - 872 Edit 10: Winky - 917 Edit 11: Winky - 920 Edit 12: Winky - 930 Edit 13: Winky - 93x (the last digit got cut off by some black thing in the background) Edit 14: Winky - 951 Edit 15: Winky - 997 Edit 16: Winky - 999 Edit 17: Enguarde - 918 Edit 18: Enguarde - 929 Edit 19: Enguarde - 940 Edit 20: Enguarde - 955 Edit 21: Enguarde - 976 Edit 22: Enguarde - 993 Edit 23: Enguarde - 999 (yay, I'm done!)
Posted: 8/10/2004 4:52 PM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
I (finally) got my response from TG today, and they're currently putting together a new no-save category for DKC based on what I outlined. Looks like I may submit a run to them after all. EDIT: I just checked their animal bonus records and they aren't too impressive; Rambi is at 858 and Enguarde is at 938. Someone should submit new runs for those.
Posted: 8/10/2004 8:40 PM
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
If TG is willing to accept videos recorded with a digital camera, then I'd be willing to get some scores for the animal bonus games on a real SNES and submit them. If not then I won't be submitting any scores since I'm too lazy and/or cheap to mail a tape to them. Edit: Also, if I remember correctly you need to give them your address in order to register with TG, so that's another reason not to submit times to them. Edit 2: I just noticed that it's possible to register for their forums without joining the other part of the site, so I just registered.
Posted: 8/15/2004 9:27 PM
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
Here's the deal with PAL and NTSC (after a lengthy discussion with Iron Knuckle). Both games use 3 bytes to keep track of your time. As was mentioned, time runs during kong-swaps or bonus games or the Kredits or even the win/lose dance in the bonuses, but not during fade-in/fade-out, pausing or the overworld, candy's, cranky's or funky's. In NTSC: The first byte keeps count of frames. It goes from 0 to 255 and back around to 0 again. The second byte counts 4 second blocks. Each 255 frames is considered a 4 second block. After it reaches 14, it goes back to 0 since 15*4 is a minute. The final byte counts minutes. It only goes up when the second changes from 14 back to 0. In PAL: The first byte also counts frames. The second byte counts 5 second chunks. 255 frames is considered 5 seconds. It goes from 0 to 11 and back to 0 (12*5 = a minute). The last byte counts minutes. There's a fourth byte for hours too, but it's rarely used unless you're slower than an hour. Now, since the NTSC game outputs 60 frames per second, 4s*60hz = 240 frames which means that each 4 seconds you get a gift of 15 frames free of charge, since the chunk counter increments at 256 and not at 241 as you'd expect. In PAL, similar story.. 50Hz*5s is 250 frames so you get 5 frames for free every 5 seconds. Over the course of the game, this turns out pretty bad... 5 free frames for 5 seconds (PAL) vs 15 frames for 4 seconds (NTSC)... that's about 6600 frames advantage to NTSC over the course of 40 minutes, or about 2 minutes worth. Keep in mind that these are frames given away for free, which is just dodgy/lazy programming and can be easily fixed in 1 line of code. In other words, PAL is impossible to beat in 39, or probably even 40, since the NTSC minumum is about 40:10 so far with the current strategies.
Posted: 8/16/2004 2:05 PM
Quote
Contendo
Joined: 7/22/2004
Posts: 6
Is there any place where we can see these 40-minute time-attacks? I'd really love to see how they do it, 'cause my fastest is 45 (game time).
Posted: 8/16/2004 5:19 PM
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
Ya I can send you the SMV movie (find me on AIM, alexpenev1). Presuming you've got the emulator and correct rom, you can watch it. I'll make a movie of 39 soon, so that's going to contain every trick in the (NTSC) book and will be the most comprehensive one to watch, so you can wait a few days for that if you want. What I said about the free frames isn't quite correct. In NTSC, when 2nd byte is at 14 (ie the final 4 second chunk to make up a minute) the frame counter only reaches 16 (not 256) before incrementing the minutes, which equates to 14*256 + 16 = 3600 frames per minute, which is how it should be. I'll have to check what the PAL version does in this regard. It probably also cuts the frame counter off when it's near 59.something seconds in order to not give away any frames. But in any case, I still think something is not quite the same with the timers.
Posted: 8/17/2004 7:04 AM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
2 minutes difference sounds about right between the versions. I think my potential for legit no-save can be as low as 43; if I had more free time recently, I could start runs using the new set of strats and warps. It's amazing though, that 39 can be reached. We've pretty much cut this game open now haven't we?
Posted: 8/17/2004 2:54 PM
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
Yes, collectively we probably know more about this game then anyone outside Rare =D Iron Knuckle tells me that in PAL, the frame counter stops at 184 on the 11th "5 seconds chunk", which is precisely 3000 frames (50Hz @ 50 fps x 60 seconds = 3000, so it appears to be correct). So actually, yes, both the NTSC and PAL versions correctly adjust for the frame counters, and increment the "minute" variable when the frames reach 3600 and 3000 in NTSC and PAL respectively. The difference in the timers must come from somewhere else... Iron Knuckle has an idea already, I'm asking him to provide me a bit more detailed explanation.
Posted: 8/19/2004 4:09 AM
(Edited: 8/19/2004 8:51 PM)
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
Here we go, new SMV ('39 mins): http://geocities.com/spenev/DKC_101pc_NTSC_v1.0_39min_40sec.zip For Misty Mine, you have to press "9" on your keyboard to remove the haze layer, otherwise you can't see anything. Everything was faster than the 40:25 run except I think 3 parts - K Rool, Poison Pond and Torchlight Trouble (each about 1-5 frames slower). I got Squawks early on in Torchlight so you can at least see what's going on (trade off of 10 frames). I looked at the game's internal timer a lot, and it's surprising how many different rolls or jump combinations end up with the same amount of frames (especially when exiting the level). Rambi and Expresso go at the same speed no matter what you do with them, as long as you don't snag an obstacle and lose momentum. I made up lots of time not from the rolling, but from entering/exiting bonuses quicker.. sometimes you can enter or exit a bonus in several different ways that look very similar/identical, but they can actually be up to 3-10 frames apart. It all adds up since there's over 60 bonuses (x2 for entering and for exiting) which is probably 10 seconds all up! Add to that the 20 seconds gained from the Millstone and Vulture Culture warps, and that's already 30 seconds. The hardest parts were: - The upwards-moving platform at the end of Elevator Antics, very tight fit. - The two tires in Rope Bridge Rumble. ARGH! The second one is easy, but the first one is hell. - Rolling underneath the second swinging rope in Blackout Basement. By far the hardest trick in the movie. The light are off and you can't see the rope, so you probably won't notice. - Barreling the final bonus in Forest Frenzy. Looks very cool though. - I decided to kill one of the Krusha's blocking the Millstone warp because it was too hard, but it's possible to move the tire underneath all three without slowing down much. - Jumping over the 9th Army in Platform Perils (the middle of three). - Thinking of ways to make the K Rool fight entertaining =/
Posted: 8/19/2004 5:16 AM
Quote
BillBull
Former player
Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462
Wow, 1 minute game time improvement, 7 mintues real time improvement. Nice work, alex.
Posted: 8/19/2004 6:15 AM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
7 mintues real time improvement
the real-time improvement comes mostly from the video being ended earlier this time before the game credits, but this run uses pretty much all our combined tricks, so good luck to anyone who tries to beat it! :)
Posted: 8/19/2004 4:26 PM
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Everything was faster than the 40:25 run except I think 3 parts - K Rool, Poison Pond and Torchlight Trouble (each about 1-5 frames slower). I got Squawks early on in Torchlight so you can at least see what's going on (trade off of 10 frames). Why did you lose time in K Rool and Poison Pond? Also, you shouldn't have given up time to get Squaks because going through the level at full speed in the dark looks cooler. Rambi and Expresso go at the same speed no matter what you do with them Is that just for level ground? I'm pretty sure you can go faster by jumping with Rambi if you're going uphill. Edit: In Millstone Mayhem, why did you switch to Donkey Kong and then immediately get hit? Edit 2: As I was watching the movie, you died in Tanked Up Trouble. It looked like the tire was supposed to land on the edge platform, but instead it fell off, so when you tried to jump on it you died. Does this happen for you also or do I have the wrong ROM? I'm using Donkey Kong Country (U) (V1.0) [!].
Posted: 8/19/2004 8:21 PM
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
> Why did you lose time in K Rool and Poison Pond? K Rool was one frame slower, and Poison Pond was about 3 frames slower. Poison Pond was perfect in the previous run, so that's one reason. The first time I completed the level it was 10 frames slower so I did it again. I'm not bored enough to spend more than 10 seconds trying to save a single frame >=P >> Rambi and Expresso go at the same speed no matter what you do with them > > Is that just for level ground? I'm pretty sure you can go faster by jumping with Rambi if you're going uphill. Na, you gain time with Rambi only if you jump as soon as you get control of him because he starts up slow and takes a bit of time to accelerate to his top speed. Jumping up/down slight inclines doesn't save any time.. it's only the first jump that saves frames. > Edit: In Millstone Mayhem, why did you switch to Donkey Kong and then immediately get hit? You can't make it into the barrel with Diddy alone. If I kill Diddy (no switch) I have to play with DK after the bonus for a bit and he's much slower. And it's faster to get killed than to switch Kongs inside the bonus. If I did something that looks odd, there's a probably a good reason for it. > Edit 2: As I was watching the movie, you died in Tanked Up Trouble. Nope, I'm not meant to die. The ROM sounds right. Try closing snes9X and reloading the game and movie and fast forward to that place again... it has happened to me before that in some place a movie messes up, but restarting it makes it works.
Posted: 8/19/2004 8:30 PM
Quote
Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I'm not bored enough to spend more than 10 seconds trying to save a single frame That's nothing. You should be willing to spend an hour to save a single frame :P
Posted: 8/19/2004 9:07 PM
Post subject: re:
Quote
alexpenev
Former player
Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 104
Ah, but this game isn't like Super Mario Bros. It's much longer and much more complex, and requires lots of creativity sometimes - so you can't rule out the possibility that someone can figure out some extra roll in some place that can save 10 frames... and do everything else exactly like I did (or recycle my video up to that point in time and re-record from there) and end up 10 frames faster because of it. So why should I spend those extra hours to save 1 frame when the strategy is only 99.9% optimal (because we can't know _everything_) and possibly improvable by someone with a lot of free time on their hands?! :) Alexis' video had a roll from a tire back to solid ground in Blackout Basement near the place with 3 tires in triangle formation - I haven't yet been able to do, for example. In this vid I jump just before about to snag the edge of the ledge. It's a move similar to rolling across the Necky surrounded by two dips near the end of Millstone (not in this vid, since I warp and ignore that place), the roll under the second rope in Blackout or the two tires in Rope Bridge - it has to be pixel perfect. Even with states it takes hundreds of attempts and tests your patience.
Posted: 8/25/2004 5:29 PM
Quote
Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
Tom Votava has informed me that TG has now created new game settings for all the DKC runs allowing a no-save run category. Check it out at http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2981
1 2
6 7 8 9 10 11