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Posted: 11/16/2005 8:34 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Yeah! That worked great hanzou, thanks a lot! It looks pretty cool too. :) Here's the fcm (I think I'll start using DeHacked's microstorage from now on) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/289/7-4_v2.fcm It's 35 frames faster than previous version, which makes it 114 frames faster than my submitted run. Enjoy!
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Posted: 11/19/2005 7:08 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Sup. I thought up a way to qualify for the category of "abuses programming errors" without losing time: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/299/Lala2-7-5_glitch.fcm -hanzou
Posted: 11/19/2005 7:29 PM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
Very nice... I like it ;) Although I wonder if this falt under "abuses program errors" or "shows program errors", since it doesn't really save time.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 11/20/2005 4:49 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Cool! I didn't know you could do that. Though as Baxter said, I don't think it could save any time, but it's a neat trick non the less. :) Anyway, I know I haven't been updating in a while now, but I'll be done with all the mathtests by tomorrow, so you'll be seeing some more updates around the start of next week!
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Posted: 11/21/2005 7:04 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Okay, here's a small status update. I've done level 5-2 231 frames faster, by shooting down the egg, like hanzou proposed in his "stuff to improve" list. Link: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/305/5-2new.fcm It's "recorded from start", so load the savestate named "5-2.fcs", included in my savestate zipfile. And I recommend to everyone who're interested in improving a level to check out hanzou's first post again, it was updated recently.
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Posted: 11/21/2005 7:51 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Looks good! That brings the total improvements so far to approximately 2:30. I'm guessing you already tried shooting the egg immediately, and that turned out to make it reappear too soon? So now you're shooting it after walking around the emerald block, which looks to be at least a couple seconds later than necessary. It would probably take many rerecords to find optimal timing for that part, so you can save this task for some other day. =) -hanzou
Posted: 11/21/2005 8:34 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
As a matter of fact, I have actually tried out quite a few different strategies for 5-2. I'll show you with this awesome picture I made in Paint: If I say "square BC", I mean the square between B and C, I think you'll get the point. As you thought, if I turn up directly when on square C and shoot the egg, I don't have time to push the emerald block into place and get to the bridge behind the snakey before he reappears. The same thing goes with squares A nd B, and all combination of these, if I shoot down the egg while it's down there, I don't have the time to get behind the snakey before he reappers, thus making it impossible to finish the level. It is however possible to make it behind the snakey if I wait on the square between A and the heart, but if I am to do this, I would have to wait for the egg to reach that zone, and that takes to much time too. On the area named "not good either", it's not good either to turn up and shoot down the egg, the waiting time is too long. One possible way of doing it is to walk directly from the "not good either" area, walk up to square D (in doing so pushing the emerald block up), turn right and shoot down the egg, and walk around the emerald block and putting it into place. If you do this you have time to get behind the snakey, however you don't have time to first push the upper snakey into the water first. This means that by doing that you have to walk directly behind the lower snakey after pushing the emerald block into place, shoot him and push him up, and after you pushed him up a bit, shoot down the upper snakey and push him into the water. This leaves us to the last option, the way I do it in the fcm, directly walking around the emerald block, pushing it down one square and then turning right and shoot down the egg. I guess I just could've said "my way is faster hanzou, that's just how it is" and you would have bought that, but being the scientist that I am I have to prove stuff :) PS: If someone proves me wrong with this I would feel very owned after this big post about why my way was the fastest one! :) EDIT:9-3 has now been improved by erasing that that one useless step: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/307/9-3new.fcm This saved 26 frames.
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Posted: 11/21/2005 9:22 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Hey man, sorry but I find it hard to believe that a level like that could have much mandatory wait period. Check this out: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/308/Lala2-5-2.fcm. I'm pretty sure that's a few steps faster than the run you posted. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to come up with this quickly if you hadn't done all that analysis. ^^ -hanzou
Posted: 11/21/2005 9:29 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Let me quote myself: I wrote: "PS: If someone proves me wrong with this I would feel very owned after this big post about why my way was the fastest one! :) " And here I stand, ashamed and owned... :) On a more serious note, great job hanzou! I tend to keep forgetting that you can shoot under an emerald block by just moving it half a square up. So good job there! :)
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Posted: 11/22/2005 3:21 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I'm posting this in a new post so that people will notice this a little better. I've done 6-1 faster now. 120 frames faster to be exact. Comments = very welcome. Link: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/310/6-1new.fcm
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Posted: 11/22/2005 4:23 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Is that 120 frames faster than CAD's 160-frame improvement for a total of 280 frames? Or I'm wondering if it's just 120 frames faster than the original, because it doesn't look that fast. In fact, walking the long way around from where Snakey sits would cause Lolo to backtrack a square only twice, while pushing the egg around apparently causes him to do it four times. If you push the egg over the water on the right side of the arrow rather than the left you'll reduce that to only two, which would break even with walking the long way around. However, what I had in mind with Snakey was shooting him and pushing him left as soon as Lolo grabs the first heart. That would prevent him from needing to walk all the way back to the right side of the room later. Remember you have lots of extra shots on this level. In addition, you should use a shot to shoot the second skull as well. That way you can get rid of that slight hesitation waiting for the second skull to turn away. -hanzou
Posted: 11/22/2005 6:27 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Ooops, I totally forgot that CAD made an improvement for 6-1 some time ago =/. Anyway, although his was 40 frames faster than mine, I managed to take the two lower hearts faster, and by going around the level to grab the last heart I managed to improve his version by 135 frames. Link: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/311/6-1new.fcm And here's a version that uses the snake in the way I think you're talking about, hanzou. But it turns out slower, maybe you see something that can be improved in it. It's currently around 100 frames slower than the movie linked to above. Here's a movie that shows my strategy: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/313/6-1_snakey.fcm And I have timed your version of 5-2 too. It was 20 frames faster than my version before, and I frame perfected it (all movements are exactly the same) and got it an additional 24 frames faster. This means that 5-2 is now 275 frames faster. Link: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/312/5-2new_v3.fcm
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Posted: 11/22/2005 6:38 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
You should still make sure to shoot both skulls! That will allow you to remove that split-second of hesitation near the end. I'll try this level now and see if I can get some better timing on Don Medusa w/ the Snakey strategy. edit: It turns out even as something as simple as blocking Medusa with the Snakey still does about 40 frames worse, so let's stick with the current route. Just make sure to shoot both skulls to avoid any hesitation at the end. And with those extra two shots, for entertainment value I'd recommend shooting Don Medusa twice after you grab the last heart. -hanzou
Posted: 11/22/2005 7:20 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Yeah, okay. Shooting both skulls saved an additional 14 frames, that makes this a total of 289 frames faster than in the all levels run. Thanks for pointing out the skulls thing. I decided to shoot down the Snakey instead after picking up the last heart, you could look at it as a revenge since he turned out completely useless on this level :) Here's a link to the movie now, everything looks pretty much the same: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/315/6-1new.fcm
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Posted: 11/22/2005 10:12 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I've been trying to improve level 7-2 some more... In your first post, hanzou, you say that it can be improved by "exploiting Leeper will shortcut path from jewel box to doorway". If I'm getting you right, you want block the Don Medusa with the Leeper by luring it up to the upper right corner (so the Don Medusa gets stuck between the Leeper and the upper wall), and when all hearts are grabbed, the leeper will vaporize so it's safe to walk straight up to beat the level? Or do you mean something completely different? .)
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Posted: 11/22/2005 11:10 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Oh, blocking Don would be swell and save a ton of time. :o But I'm not sure if that can be done and even if it could it would require tricky maneuvering and impossibly perfect timing to get Leeper through that gap up at the top. What I was referring to was the idea of blocking the center column Medusa with Leeper instead of an emerald block. In the current run, Lolo has to drag two emerald blocks up to that region and it takes up quite a bit of time to haul them from the bottom left of the room. If you can do it with Leeper instead this might not save time initially if you end up on the same Don Medusa cycle, but it would at least save time after grabbing the jewel box. Here are some screenshots I took a while back that ought to convey the idea. You can tell I took these some time ago because there isn't any Lala in them! =) edit: Thought I had a second idea just now, but then I realized it wouldn't work. -hanzou
Posted: 11/23/2005 8:12 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's a shot at 7-2 that includes abusing the Leeper. Take a look and leave a comment. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/325/7-2new_v2.fcm As before, this movie plays 7-2 in the middle of the movie, so load a savestate if you want to skip the part before 7-2! :)
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Posted: 11/23/2005 9:18 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Excellent job. I timed it and it seems to be 192 frames faster than your previous improvement or 448 frames faster than in the original movie. -hanzou
Posted: 11/23/2005 10:05 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's 8-4 done 531 frames faster by shooting down the other Snakey and using him when he respawns: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/326/8-4new.fcm EDIT: Here's another improvement :) This time it's 4-1, thanks to hanzou's tips in his first post. The improvement is 41 frames: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/329/4-1new.fcm EDIT 2: I think the most commonly used word in this thread is... Improvement! Yeah! :) This time it's 9-1. 63 frames faster: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/331/9-1new_v2.fcm EDIT 3: Today has been a very productive day. Here's 9-2 done 698 frames faster: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/334/9-2new.fcm
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Posted: 11/24/2005 6:20 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Wow I didn't think you'd gain a whole 11 seconds on 9-2. On 9-1, I notice that Lolo has to walk around the emerald block to get to the doorway. Maybe I was wrong about the half-push thing, since the square of walking saved at first apparently gets lost at the end because of this. Did your 63 frames come from some other change? Now I'm thinking it might be better to push Don Medusa in all the way, since the time lost by the extra push will be absorbed at the point when you have to hesitate for Leeper. -hanzou
Posted: 11/24/2005 7:21 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Yeah, those 63 frames of improvement came from other stuff. The first thing is that after trapping Don Medusa, I push the emerald bloctfo the left. Because this is a bit faster, I could time it in to grab the heart on the left side of the screen. The best thing to do to see the differences is just to first look at the previous run and then look at this. There are some more stuff that's new, but they're pretty hard to explain, so if you compare the two runs you'll hopefully see what's new. And about pushing the emerald block all the way to Don Medusa, I tried this, and everything seemed just fine, until some serious lag began.... I compared this run and the one I posted, and I loose around 20 frame due to lag on this level, it got worse somehow when I had pushed the emerald block all the way into the Don. Weird... I think I'll keep this run as it is unless you can spot something else that could be improved in it. Oh yeah, I've been trying to improve 9-4, but I can't seem to manipulate Alma any better than I do in the current run... Help me please! :) Oh yeah, thanks for all these tips by the way, they're shaving off a lot of time!
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Posted: 11/24/2005 7:46 PM
(Edited: 11/24/2005 8:29 PM)
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
How strange. Anyway, with only a few levels remaining and a lot more time on my hands today due to Thanksgiving, I figured I'd try out the rest of the apparently improvable levels. Check these out: edit: Whoops! Looks like you already took care of 7-1 a long time ago. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/336/Lala2-9-1.fcm. 59 frames saved off the one you recently posted. I tried a slightly different route and the full Don push. I didn't notice a difference in the lag, but if there is a lag increase then I guess this can be improved further. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/337/Lala2-9-4.fcm. only 38 frames saved, because Rocky wouldn't cooperate. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/338/Lala2-9-5.fcm. 37 frames saved. These numbers are within a couple frames of error. ;) I took 3-4 off the list because I watched your 3-4 again and realized your new strategy doesn't need to backtrack for any emerald block at the end. This just about wraps it up! edit: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/339/lala2-Castle-6.fcm. You might have something better since you mentioned you made a ~50 frame improvement on the boss while back, but anyway, 71 frames saved. ;) -hanzou
Posted: 11/24/2005 8:14 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Allright! Let's get this done with, I have a lot of time to kill on this weekend too, so I'll try to work as hard as I can with this. But before I start I'll make a table of everything that will be improved for the final version. I'll just time C-5 first, be right back... EDIT: Improvement on C-5 is 537 frames. Just for the record. :) EDIT 2: In total this new run will be at least 10892 frames faster, that's 3 minutes and 1,53 seconds. Quite amazing! :) EDIT 3: Haha! This couldn't have started off better! When redoing level 1-5, I managed to improve it by an additional 51 frames: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/340/Adventures%20of%20Lolo%202%20%28U%29.fcm EDIT 4: Has anyone else had trouble watching my 2-4 improvement? Here's the link: http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload2/new2-4.zip For me this starts playing in the middle of level 1-2... Is it something wrong with the movie, or am I doing something wrong here?
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Posted: 11/24/2005 10:30 PM
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hanzou
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Oh, I vaguely recall trying to play that back on November 14th when you posted it, and that is what happened. If the file can't be salvaged, hopefully you can retrace your steps and figure out how to get those 59 frames back. -hanzou
Posted: 11/24/2005 11:00 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Hmmm, I couldn't remember what technique I used there, but I'm starting to doubt that the improvement really was 59 frames. In this version I have now, the improvement is 39 frames, and as I see it, this time 2-4 looks better than before. But I don't know, perhaps you can find if I'm doing something wrong on 2-4. Anyway, here's the first WIP. Floors 1 and 2 are completed: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/341/randil_lolo2_fullrun.fcm This went a lot faster than I thought! Executing a Lolo TAS doesn't take that much time, it's the planning that is the real time consumer here. Well, enjoy.
My own page on this site.
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