Joined: 11/22/2004
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DeHackEd wrote:
How about the open-the-drive-door trick for FMV skipping?
Is that even possible with ePSXe? EDIT: technically, any "input" is acceptable, right? Opening the Playstation isn't input, so I guess that with our current set of rules, that would not be acceptable.
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Yeah, could you record opening your disc drive and then have the emulator make it open on playback?
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That would be kewl.
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Omega wrote:
FODA wrote:
loading time differs from playstation to playstation and from cd to cd. it's far from being frame precise.
It does differ between CD ISO dumps, but I'm certain that the error correction that's dumped along with the ISO files will correct any such differences. And if everybody uses one certain BIOS file, then there should be no problem.
i'm pretty sure it differs form playstation to playstation and from cd to cd since its a physical component and is subject to variations. its not just circuits. its a cd spinning there. the lens get tired and the cd has dust on it so i think its pretty difficult to have ideal conditions to have frame precision.
Joined: 11/22/2004
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FODA wrote:
Omega wrote:
FODA wrote:
loading time differs from playstation to playstation and from cd to cd. it's far from being frame precise.
It does differ between CD ISO dumps, but I'm certain that the error correction that's dumped along with the ISO files will correct any such differences. And if everybody uses one certain BIOS file, then there should be no problem.
i'm pretty sure it differs form playstation to playstation and from cd to cd since its a physical component and is subject to variations. its not just circuits. its a cd spinning there. the lens get tired and the cd has dust on it so i think its pretty difficult to have ideal conditions to have frame precision.
But a Playstation emulator should not show any differences if you use a (somewhat) similar ROM and the same BIOS. Given the fact it's written properly. A digital file can't get dust on it.
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So the emulator just wouldn't include the disc's natural loading times?
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
So the emulator just wouldn't include the disc's natural loading times?
Er, yes it would. There wouldn't be any problem in emulation, so loading times would be rendered as well. And with ideal circumstances, all load times will be the same in frames as well.
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You mean it would emulate exactly how long the disc spins?
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he means all emulators will emulate equaly, but it will never be like a real playstation.
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Even playstations differs from machine to machine. :) Depending on if your cd is scratched or your laser is bung.
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Yes, but I'm not talking about a real Playstation, like FODA said.
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What's the point of an emulator emulating loading times as well? Aren't they unwanted?
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Because you want to make it AUTHENTIC.
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I don't think the loading screens are entertaining enough. :)
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I think loading screen / time are emulated anyway, it has to be there. I remember one time playing "Parasite Eve", I somehow changed video plugin setting that made everything in the game went in double speed, loading time is double speed as well. I don't think it's possible to change loading time anyway, "Parappa the Rapper" game came to my mind. It's the game that plays the song during load screen and even begin "rap" song during load screen and plays on. note - links direct to wikipedia
Joined: 7/28/2005
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Wow. We just got N64 working and we're already...somewhere with PlayStation. Nice. So when does XBox360 speedrunning start? :) As for loading times, I could be dead wrong about this but I figured I'd chime in since as far as games from PC go, I've run the complete gamut of load times and have some understanding of how they work. I've played games from floppies, I've played games from hard drives, I've played games from CDs, and I've even played games from virtual RAM drives, which is a hell of a lot of fun. But I digress. From what I understand you have a "start the now loading screen" sequence, the loading itself, and the "OK the game's loaded now, get going" sequence. For argument's sake, let's say "start loading screen" is fading into the "Now Loading" screen and the "now load the game" sequence is fading OUT of this screen. Now the middle sequence, the loading, may, depending on how the game/console is programmed, only start once the "Now Loading" screen has fully faded in, or it may start earlier (the fade in is done by the system and its RAM, leaving the drive to do other things like start loading the game). However, what happens is that the game makes frequent (for argument's sake, let's say every frame) checks as to whether the game is loaded yet or not, but it WILL NOT start these checks until after the "Now Loading" screen has fully faded in. So basically, if we were playing this game off of RAM in an emulator, the "Now Loading" Screen would fade in and then IMMEDIATELY fade out. Naturally, I could be wrong about this, although I will bet money that a properly-coded emulator designed for speedrunning will give completely repeatable results just like the emulators we have working with speedruns now. Don't forget that many cartridge-based console games do technically have load times under certain circumstances, and they work (FDS ahoy). One cartridge game I know has significant "loading" is "Mace: The Dark Ages" for N64 as the console itself doesn't have enough memory to load everyone's character model at once on the fighter select screen, forcing the game to load whenever you move the cursor to a new fighter (it creates a very apparent pause on a real console if you pay attention to the blinking cursor; not sure about on an emulator). Newer fighting games still apply similar strategies (Soul Calibur 2, at least on PS2, only loads silhouettes initially before loading the actual model, and you can hear the PS2's drive work even though there's no "on-screen" pause). And, of course, some games stream data. FMVs, of course, do this, as do voice (DDR songs as well, for example) and, of course, CD audio tracks. As for "OMG UNAUTHENTIC" dissenters, keep in mind that the PS2 also allows for doubling the PS1 game load speed. It's possible that certain emulators may limit data intake speed to ensure compatibility in case a game is dependent on loading lag (although I think only early, mostly-forgettable PS1 games would have this problem; I think everything from FFVII on should be fine if you jack up the speed), but I think it's best we get something that actually works before we start having a meaningless fight. Having this kind of fight now is akin to people taking stances now over their position on brain transplants. Once someone who actually knows what the realities of the PS1's functionalities are (and isn't just guessing like I'm doing) and actually reliably tests these things out in a recording-capable PS1 emulator, then we can find out the best way of handling things. Let's not put the cart in front of the horse, as they say. One last thing: I'm fairly sure tampering with the CD is a no-no speedrun-wise for the same reasons that "nudging" a cartridge while playing is a no-no for them as well (or baddumps, for that matter). If any speedrunning is going to happen it's going to require verified versions of a game and the emulator is going to have to be able to reliably acquire the information for the game and not just "gloss over" it as the PSX is designed to be able to do to a certain degree. Runners themselves will likely be working off CD images on their hard drive; constant loading and re-loading would wreck the be-jesus out of a CD drive. Playback may be doable off a CD, although I'm sure that anyone having trouble with playback won't get much support until (s)he dumps the CD to an HD image. Phew! OK, I'm done.
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univbee wrote:
Wow. We just got N64 working and we're already...somewhere with PlayStation. Nice. So when does XBox360 speedrunning start? :)
Never quite soon enough, I say!
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I just remade the original movie using an on-screen recorder rather than Fraps. It can be found here: http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/finalfantasyix_0.avi [4.43 MB] I also made a movie that completely glitches up the game. It doesn't actually trigger this graphic garbage via the game itself, but I made it using the GPU recorder plugin. Still very cool to see: http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/dropbox/finalfantasyix_1.avi [1.53 MB]
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oh, nice. It doesn't lag at all anymore. Now just continue from this and finish the game. :)
Which run should I encode next? :)
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Maza wrote:
oh, nice. It doesn't lag at all anymore. Now just continue from this and finish the game. :)
Nah... it's just too annoying to work like that. You could also hear that some sound effects got cut off as I loaded a save state. I don't think it would be worth it.
Joined: 11/2/2005
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What plugins did you use to record the movie?
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Post subject: Re: ePSXe re-recording (FFIX)
Joined: 3/18/2006
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Omega wrote:
A while back, I used two testing plugins that could record GPU and SPU output from ePSXe to create a short movie of Final Fantasy IX. I'm able to use slowdowns and rerecords while using these plugins and then later capture the streams using Fraps when I replay them with different GPU and SPU plugins, like Pete's. I was going to play through the whole game this way, but stopped when I found out its major disadvantages and bugs. Namely, whenever you load a state, any sound or music instrument that was playing at that moment will be cut off. This makes for some very nasty sound bugs. Also, it wasn't possible to properly capture the audio and video streams (resulting in a lot of lag, as you can see during the battle). Fraps was really my last resort. The program is also very prone to "break" the audio (meaning everything will be recorded without sound, requiring that you restart the emulator), which happened everytime you loaded a state during an MDEC. Still, this video is pretty cool, especially if you'd really like to see ePSXe re-recording someday. Some features:
  • uses slowdowns and re-records
  • uses luck manipulation (to get the Mage Masher with Cinna's Steal command)
ffxi-rerecording-concept.avi 4.4 MB (x264)
Hey I want to do this. Can you send me the tools to do so?
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Since FFIX and some other good PSX games have multiple discs, how would you make a TAS movie of them? Would you just offer each AVI seperately? As for load times, I think the decision should be left up to the TASer, and the total loading time omitted from the time calculations regardless. Loading times are a consular limitation based on the medium used for data storage (both memory cards and discs alike). However, some TASes already exist that overcome similar consular limitations. For example, many NES games exhibit slowdown in different places, but that does not occur in a TAS because the emulator uses the PC's processor and a PC processor is faster than the NES processor. Load times are a similar limitation: because a .iso stored on a hard drive can be read much faster than data stored on a disc in a PSX drive, an emulator can be written to take advantage of this to nearly eliminate load times. I personally don't have a problem with this, especially for some games like the PSX Final Fantasy trilogy where load times are near constant (battles have brief load times before them). Of course, omitting the total loading time from any movie's time should be done in an issue of fairness.
...?
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To be on entirely fair grounds, run times are determined by frames, which are not affected by load times. Yes, load times slow down the emulator, but not the game (in terms of number of frames). Technically, loading times can be cut down to a few frames (as someone mentioned). Mupen64 (the N64 emulator) is the emulator which I use to base this statement. There are systems which don't use frames, namely non-console systems such as DOS.