https://youtu.be/Qd5fesxRNs0 (First few seconds are relevant part).
Might be possible to stay in talon trot use talon trot and rat a tap instead of backflip to get onto sheet music in mmm church. My range of directions using the keyboard is limited, so it might be easier on console. If necessary, I think making use of the camera change before going on the stand might help.
update: video of BGS tiptup jiggy. move down slightly while backflipping to honeycomb (maybe for a few frames). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHwIKAXezQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IOuBuymK2w
"Beak Buster" climbing. RBB ladder just for demonstration (since it won't need to be used in TAS).
There seems to be a sweet spot (timing and maybe placement on the ladder) if you time a beak buster properly. (If you time it improperly, it is slower than normal climbing). The only time it is successful in the video is at 0:07. The only places I can think that this will be useful is the vine in the lair near TTC and CCW puzzle and some poles in BGS.
Those are some neat finds anotheruser, I'll mess around with them a bit more.
Getting onto the music sheet without backflipping is indeed possible.
I've mostly been doing routing for the past couple of weeks and actually managed to improve the route by 30+ seconds.
Clipping out of CCW near the flower saves around a total of 30 seconds if you get it first try in each spring, summer, and autumn. Doing this voids you out and brings you back to the lobby and you can proceed directly to the next season. You don't lose your jinjos or notes doing this. I'll write up a route soon.
I found some other small things like pooping eggs for certain boxes and doors which save a small amount of time.
Just wanted to post to say that I am still alive and planning things out, just been busy with school and stuff.
I found some small optimizations and time savers:
http://gyazo.com/17462c3aa3a628801a3a766e8acb83a8 You can make it to the top of MM in talon trot. Just found this now actually, randomly decided to test it again. This should be faster than the other method.
Treasure Trove Cove:
I did a rough timing on console of getting the alcove jiggy normally vs skipping the dance by flying. They look to be very close and I would have to TAS it to determine which is faster.
X jiggy would either be damage cancelled or collected in the water. Not sure which yet. Leaning towards damage cancel because you have to deathwarp at the end of the level anyways.
Freezeezy Peak
It may be faster by a small amount to get the Wozza jiggy during the final Boggy race.
If necessary health wise, you can likely take damage at the end of a beak bomb while heading towards the igloo to set up for the deathwarp at the end of the level.
Gobi's Valley
You can poop an egg into the first wall sphinx inside of Jinxy which saves a bit of time.
I am fairly certain I came up with a faster way to do the matching puzzle, and you can also use the mummy to your advantage to get little boosts across the room when you bounce off him. I don't know yet if this actually saves time but it could maybe be useful.
I want to do further testing on when is best to get the Gobi jiggy. Also I had the idea of shooting the boulder with eggs from a distance and collecting it with the turbo trainers to skip the dance.
Mad Monster Mansion:
Its about a second faster to get the 2 notes on the right side of the well after you exit it.
Rusty Bucket Bay: It is a couple seconds faster to do the code jiggy before the navigation room.
In the warehouse by the yellow jinjo I think it may be possible to talon trot slide jump from the jiggy to the box with the 4 notes on it. I have come close but haven't done enough testing yet.
Click Clock Wood:
It's faster to poop an egg to break the window in Fall.
It's faster to leave Nabnut's house through the window instead of the door because you can move immediately after you re enter the main area, whereas for the door you are forced to wait .4 seconds or so before you can move.
Lots of talon trot slide jumping is possible to cut corners and make paths shorter throughout the levels in general.
Right now I am trying to solidify the route and start planning out my resource usage. I intend to skip the egg note door by Dingpot. The eggs in the Grunty fight respawn extremely quickly and I think you could collect upwards of 20 eggs in the fight just in the downtime.
cool, liking the optimizations, hyper.
I recall sixfifteen doing an alternate method for mm lair jiggy where you roll, flutter off, feathery flap, roll, then rat-a tap rap and you can get the jiggy (but it's harder to do rta at least for me). This skips the beak buster. I don't know if it's still slower than talon trot, but something to test.
(Update: Nevermind, it's similar to the waiting and sliding down the slope, which is slower). I played through ttc and after the lighthouse, I was able to maintain talon trot and fell/slid to the bottom without damage. I'm not sure how I did this (I somehow kept walking on the cliff side longer than usual I think), but something to consider if it is faster or may be possible for saving health.
Small optimization in FP: If you slide off of a box when going to bottles, you can stay in talon trot when learning beak bomb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzFD07RykHs BGS lair jiggy neck clip. I couldn't find a video of this, but I've seen it in streams, so I uploaded one. Still no consistent setup. I saw a few previous posts where a wire frame was used. Anyone want to try using that for this?
With regards to getting the third conga orange pad, I believe that it happens due to rotations within the 90 degree range of the orange when you are on the tree (but shifted more towards chimpy...not sure if this sounds clear...but sometimes, I think conga throws behind him 180 degrees).
I have been able to get him to throw it to the 3rd pad while staying on the tree (after some moving up and down and rotation), but only once (it's very hard to get him to throw the proper distance; I've had several oranges get close very close to the pad but not close enough to trigger it). I think it works well in the route since you just have to rotate a bit around the point of the orange. I think this can be manipulated in tas to get it immediately.
http://www.twitch.tv/stivitybobo/c/1855581 When stiv does it, notice he stays on the tree slightly longer and moves slightly downward compared to his runs now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xppbYurYDys
I apologize for the double/triple post. I think I understand how the third ledge conga egg hit works.
A hit is triggered when it hits anywhere below his head. This includes the arms/hands. Hyper was on the right track when mentioning that it works while conga's beating his chest. I'm still not sure if it's possible to get it while on the switch ledge (probably a lot of precision). I tried to attempt the interrupt the cutscene, but I can't reliably hit conga on the third ledge in real time.
I used the stairs on the right side to "calibrate" the aim, but it doesn't need to be too precise since his arm movements affect it too.
(Thanks to cloakedyoshi's highlight video for helping me figure this out).
Nevermind about this. Kirkq and Cronikeys tried to do this 2 years ago. -Idea for ttc early. There are a few bricks that are in the ground. The smaller ones that look like triangular prisms are solid rectangular prisms that jut into the ground. I'm thinking it might be possible to do the talon trot clip on these small pieces, but would require tas inputs to test. My idea is that because there is water that also exists slightly under, clipping will switch to swimming mode, and then you can swim to the loading zone for ttc. Though some water is not directly under the loading zone, so may need some special jumps to get to it.
-I tried non-tas talon trot slide jumps in CC from bolt pipe walkway and I think it might be possible to get to the mumbo token grating when tas'ed. If it's possible, then it'll be faster to collect notes on the pipe falling down (but might mess up the cycle). Though I don't have a video, the jumping from the original part near the bolt gets slightly closer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhmru0AZVeI
(12/12): Small finding: I tested in CCW winter the last mumbo token in winter and compared it with beak buster vs. talon trot "exiting" as you drop (like when getting the autumn flower jiggy when dropping from the beehive), then flap or rat a tap to not take damage. A conservative estimate is that it's 5 frames faster to do the talon trot thing (flap and rat-a-tap are close) as opposed to beak buster. I think this can apply to other high altitude drops.
(fp hat is too high. However, it is possible to just take one damage jumping directly off the top of the hat with the notes if you touch the water right. Although this isn't in the 100% tas route, I think it might work for the any% route).
(12/17): I figured out how to do the wireframe thing in pj64. Video of the grunty lair clip with wireframe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byCDw-bMpSU
Can monsters push you out of bounds if you're against a corner or a wall?
I'm wondering if for TTC lair, if it's possible to try to talon trot "clip" one the edge/corner of the ship and then wait for the gremlin dude to hit you so you get pushed out of bounds (though I think that is a very difficult setup to test).
Now that finals are over and I'm back from AGDQ and other personal obligations, I am back to working on this. Just going to jump right into Spiral Mountain and start off from where the old TAS got the backflip.
I've found some neat little things that save time but I'd like to save those for the actual project and I'll show them in some WIPs.
To follow up with your theory about TTC early, Cronikeys actually "found" a way to get into TTC early but it was never reproduced on console. The way she did it was clipping into the pipe you use to climb up to the jiggy and then swimming oob over to the chest. The clip was done in the same style as the BGS witch switch jiggy clip. Could be emulator only.
Me and other banjo runners actually spent multiple hours at agdq in the practice room trying to get a set up for the BGS clip and I SORT of found one it's just pretty finicky. Kind of hard to explain so I may make a video later.
Your find about falling from large heights and moving quickly is correct provided the height is in a good range. For example in Jinxy you can roll off, and flutter cancel one frame before you hit the ground and immediately get in talon trot, saving time from not fluttering. May also be useful in winter.
Something that Stiv stumbled upon during agdq is that it's possible to enter talon trot while leaving a level, skipping the animation.
Mostly everything is planned out and routed except for feather and egg count. I want to skip the egg door at the end of the game. If anyone wants to help me plan out egg usage that would be great.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but do you have a solution now for how to manipulate the Conga RNG in MM? I remember that this killed the progress of the last TAS attempt.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
From my testing so far, RNG seems to be mostly dominated by the frame you enter an area. Camera angles could likely change it as well.
When I think of Conga RNG I only think of two things to worry about: Getting Conga to not beat his chest and getting him to throw an orange onto the third pad without standing on it.
Conga beating his chest when you approach him initially seems to be quite rare actually so I am not too worried about that.
As for getting him to throw it onto the third pad, people have been able to replicate this somewhat with a certain series of inputs, though seems to be relatively precise. This likely is not RNG based at all.
Also, the jiggy spawn direction we know how to influence now, by killing/destroying an object at a certain angle, the jiggies will always overlap thus skipping a jiggy dance.
I hope that answers your question. If not let me know!
Hm, maybe using the mad monster mansion bk window room for eggs and feathers? I don't know if you can traverse the room in less than 10 seconds though to make up for the egg door.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc5nhFLC9zU
Example of conga hitting third pad while being pretty stationary on the tree (sorry about the mouse in the video). I don't think the camera matters, though I adjusted it in this example. This is obviously too slow. I'm curious, what were the inputs tried?
If you try replicate how Stiv originally found it, which is when he was jumping off the tree towards chimpy, you will eventually get it.
http://www.twitch.tv/stivitybobo/c/1855581 try copy the movement in this video
EDIT: Just noticed this is the same video you linked a while back, so you already know about that. But anyways, if you try enough times and try replicate that movement it should work eventually, but is definitely not consistent enough for RTA
Yet another CCW reroute which saves 20+ seconds. I got a video this time :D
http://www.twitch.tv/hyperresonance92/c/5939358
I also discovered that like in Banjo Tooie, you can talk to bottles while entering talon trot and skip the animation, probably saving around 4 seconds throughout the run from the moves you learn.
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
I showed hyper already, but you can shoot eggs at the flower hole instead of pooping them in. This should save a few more seconds with the new route.
Also just for future reference here's an info dump on the CCW hole/gobi in general:
from nothing to jiggy requires 3 interactions with the area
3 possible types of interactions are eggs in spring, gobi summer, and gobi fall
eggs in summer and fall will make a "you did something right" noise but don't count for some reason (this should be more thoroughly investigated)
an interaction can only be done once per time the area is loaded
the eggs are repeatable hence the glitch working
the "summer switch" reloads the area, so technically two interactions in the first visit to spring are possible without having to go into any unnecessary loading zones
gobi summer is skippable, gobi fall is skippable, or both are skippable
the three interactions means the flower has 4 phases (no flower, a flower, a bigger flower, and a bloomed flower)
summer gobi only appears when the flower is in 'a flower' state
fall gobi only appears when the flower is in a 'bigger flower' state
gobi disappears when you unload the area (e.g. using the fall or winter season switch)
the jiggy doesn't transcend seasons, so whatever season you perform the last interaction in is the season you will have to collect the jiggy in
if the last interaction is done in spring the game will softlock
bypassing the softlock with a loading zone by gaining control during the cutscene and heading to mumbo's (like in hyper's route) causes the state of the flower to save from 'bigger flower' to 'bloomed flower' but dying/save and quitting/resetting does not
gaining control is possible by getting hit when the cutscene is starting
while moving around with camera lock the hitboxes don't always work (this needs to be more thoroughly tested - specifically whether killing a wall bird's cutscene fixes camera lock.. if it's even possible to kill one while in that state)
getting hit by the bull seemingly doesn't work (hasn't been thoroughly tested. whoever tests this (i probably will) will need to check not only all of the bulls states but also his body vs head seem to have different properties)
the softlock occurs because the game is trying to return control to gobi, who isn't there in spring (ever)
if the flower is spawned in spring, getting it as bee is possible
shoutouts to ezazar, purplerupees, hyper, and whoever else knew about the egg interaction glitch. afaik it was never documented before ezazer (or maybe purplerupees). i wanted to info dump because it's an odd but extremely integral part of the ccw routing now
--
side note: a speedrunner (kaptainkohl) was able to get what was thought to be a pal-exclusive oob in clanker's cavern on ntsc console. no one else has been able to replicate despite hours of testing. there's a video of him doing it though and it's easily possible on emulator (due to collision detection bugs in Mupen caused by 32-64 conversion) and PAL (again, due to teeny tiny differences at a machine code level.. i LOVE version differences) so whether or not it's "allowed" will probably need to be looked into.
i'm not really even sure if it saves time. it lets you walk underwater. for now i'm inclined to say it's a hardware error for kohl (see: random back in time glitch happening for one guy's cartridge a few pages ago), but there's really no way to know for sure unless another runner on ntsc is able to get it.. so if you wanna help then jump into this wall on console!)
Link to video
~it's a mystery~
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
AnotherUser wrote:
Nevermind about this. Kirkq and Cronikeys tried to do this 2 years ago. -Idea for ttc early. There are a few bricks that are in the ground. The smaller ones that look like triangular prisms are solid rectangular prisms that jut into the ground. I'm thinking it might be possible to do the talon trot clip on these small pieces, but would require tas inputs to test. My idea is that because there is water that also exists slightly under, clipping will switch to swimming mode, and then you can swim to the loading zone for ttc. Though some water is not directly under the loading zone, so may need some special jumps to get to it.
This might help you or give you ideas related to TTC
Link to video
What's in that video isn't possible in the game and is just an emulator bug, though. At least as far as we know. I tried it for many hours, but couldn't get it on console.
I don't think we can use CEN64 for any serious testing yet. But interestingly enough, the emulator seems to work better with the classic "problem games" so far.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
andypanther wrote:
I don't think we can use CEN64 for any serious testing yet. But interestingly enough, the emulator seems to work better with the classic "problem games" so far.
I'm going to try to not get too off-topic and I'm speaking in lay generalizations. Most of what I'm saying is relevant to the BK TAS.
I'm moderately familiar with Mupen's code (I've read it all and know how most of it works) and can say most of its problems are due to the fact that it's emulating something beyond the scope of what 32 bit software can do. BK, BT, DK64, Blast Corps, Conker's Bad Fur Day, etc.all use a similarly programmed engine that, especially in BT/DK64's case, has a lot of 64 bit calculations occuring concurrently with 32 bit calculations. The juggling the software (mupen) has to do while switching between these values is what is causing a lot of the problems. With a single line change in the code, I can make some jumps harder, some more clips possible, and vice versa. The problem is at the bit level, so Mupen is basically hopeless in 100% accurate emulation.
There is, however, a patch or bandaid available. It's something the 32 bit sibling of mupen, Project 64, has done for years: have an adjustable "counter factor" and Vi Refresh Rate. Neither of these have a hardware counterpart. They merely serve the purpose of changing the micro-calculations that occur at a machine code level. Changing the counter factor makes the jump at the opening more difficult or easier. Changing the counter factor makes the jump to Clanker's tooth more difficult or easier. Changing it can make NTSC perform "PAL exclusive" glitches, such as the RBA that uses a clip instead of the cauldron. A more extreme example is with Donkey Kong 64 where changing the counter factor can literally make you move at the speed of light and clip through literally everything in the game.
Mupen64plus has recently added this bandaid (again, not lines of code that represent anything in the actual hardware). It hasn't been rolled into Bizhawk yet (I was working on it but I got sidetracked.. someone else might have taken over while I was gone for most of the Summer). BK is TASable, emulatable, somewhat accurate, etc. on mupen-rr and current release of Bizhawk, but with the next release adjusting the counter factor would make it more accurate to console but it enters a fuzzy area with movie recording because it would guaranteed not sync with anyone who had their emulator set to a different counter factor.
Blah blah... all that is to say, CEN64 is being called an N64 "simulator" because it is attempting to handle the games as they were intended. As such, it can only run on beefy computers with 64 bit processors and will incorporate the hardware intensive conversions/translations whatever they're called of the calculations. The majority of N64 games were primarily 32 bit. Rare really pushed the system to its limits, so it will likely be a long while before CEN makes games like them cycle-accurate.
So for this TAS, it should be started on Bizhawk with the latest mupen64plus rolled in (It's more complicated than just compiling the code of mupen64plus and dragging and dropping - about 20 files and hundreds of lines of code need to be changed. I already documented most of it, but I took a break over the summer that sort of pushed that aside.) Doing the TAS on this version of this emulator would give the best results for the foreseeable future (until the next-gen of N64 emulators become viable on consumer grade hardware).
All that is to say:
1) The only way to guarantee a glitch is not a bug with the N64 emulator is to test it on console. This is true for most N64 Rare games currently.
2) A spec of dust landing inside your Nintendo 64 could potentially cause different glitches to occur in Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie and the other games I mentioned. So one person getting a glitch does not mean it is possible based on the software of the game. For an example, one person's cartridge desynched the intro and gave them 'back in time.' Another example, one person's cartridge let them clip through the floor in Mumbo's hut. Another example, one person's cartridge of Banjo-Tooie let them clip through the door into the weldar fight early. Another example, one person's cartridge let them fall out of bounds in the 810 Note Door room.
3) This is exactly why PAL glitch differences exist for BK.
It really sucks. Best approach is reproducing known glitches on multiple (at least 2) consoles before incorporating them into the TAS route. I'd hate to see a TAS use something that isn't actually possible in the game, which right now is a lot of things (obviously nothing that diverges from the RTA route).
Thanks for explaining all this stuff!
The emulation of the Rare games really is all over the place, and it will probably take a very long time until we have an emulator that is even "ok" with its accuracy. Until then, the best we can do is trying to work with what we have - Just like you're doing it right now, Cronikeys. I'm absolutely fine with not using tricks in a TAS that can't be verified, so please don't get discouraged!
And I just randomly remembered something completely irrelevant: Another (apparently very unknown) difference between versions is, that some copies actually show more Stop 'n' Swop items in the secret ending! Specifically, I'm talking about the egg in MMM. Well, at least my old PAL cartridge does it... I love how many secrets those games still hold from us ^^
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
andypanther wrote:
please don't get discouraged!
You have no idea how much I need words of encouragement these days for banjo-kazooie haha.. i've found so many things that have ended up being "emulator bugs" and not actual game glitches. fake ttc early is probably the biggest. i'm glad i thoroughly (jumped into that wall for like 15 hours) tested it on console, but RIP my hands and it's still hardly conclusive. Ugh. I've been primarily glitch hunting on console for the last few months for this very reason (so I don't find fake clips or fake jump possibilities.. which is probably a bigger concern for the tas routers)
andypanther wrote:
And I just randomly remembered something completely irrelevant: Another (apparently very unknown) difference between versions is, that some copies actually show more Stop 'n' Swop items in the secret ending! Specifically, I'm talking about the egg in MMM. Well, at least my old PAL cartridge does it... I love how many secrets those games still hold from us ^^
2 things: one, that's cool thanks for sharing. two, that reminded me:
Blast Corps by Rare has a glitch where you can die on the credits screen. For the longest time nobody knew how it worked until this year Graviton (a speedrunner of the game) meticulously figured out it has to do with the direction you're facing when pressing start on the intro screen. I'm bringing this up because in Banjo-Kazooie, in-game demo desynchs, like in the SNS screens or any cutscene really, are extremely common.
Occurrences I know about:
banjo missing the carrot at the end
dying in mad monster mansion intro demo causing back in time glitch (happened on ntsc console alledgedly without gameshark - and it's just a guess that this is what happened because the runner's story was spotty. see earlier tasvideos post on it)
dying in RBB during intro cutscene causing BIT glitch (might have happened on xbla - saw this on an old 2010 casual forum post)
falling off the ledge while getting the TTC egg in end SNS cutscene
The exact cause is unknown but it probably (definitely in my opinion) has something to do with how that Blast Corps glitch works.
Link to video
It's on my to-do list one day when I feel like staring at MHS (I use pj64, sue me) for hours, but thought I'd share it here in case any number-oriented people here are so inclined to look into them. I don't have a save state for any of the listed things, but there are videos floating about.
Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 159
Location: Philadelphia
Good luck with the tas, Cronikeys! It looks like you've amassed quite a fortune of knowledge about the game and I don't think anyone else could quite do it justice :)
