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Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I was wondering what you guys think about maybe running this game and what you think about how long it would take to complete it with our tools.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Unless some huge glitch or shortcut was discovered, this run would be around 4:15+, give or take. There are just too many unskippable cutscenes, not to mention tedious fights.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
This would be so incredibly epic... I don't think it will be done just yet. There isn't much that even CAN be done in terms of luck manipulation, since each enemy and attack are assign the EXACT same value each time, and the only thing to be gained out of a TAS specifically is perfect reflexes for action commands... at least that's all I can think of. The nature of the game means there isn't much that can be done to sequence break, i.e. the physics and moves aren't all that exploitable... Paper Mario is kind of overzealous with its collision boundaries anyways.
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
This is one of my all time favorite games, hehe. I was waiting for someone to bring this one up. The SDA run is about five hours long, give or take. But it is still not perfect. This game is definately worthy of a TAS.
Joined: 6/15/2004
Posts: 9
don't we still have some graphical problem with that game?
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
Oh yeah, that too. Menus are glitchy.
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
4:15 isn't much longer than some of the SNES RPGs are. I'd say Secret of Mana, Lufia, and Chronotrigger are all gonna end up about that long. (If not longer.) I dunno. I'm mildly interested in seeing a run of this, but I wouldn't really be disappointed if it never happened.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
Aye, there are some graphical problems in the game when it's played by emulator. Such as the Menus, they take forever to come up. And the Background tends to flash quite a lot in a lot of areas. I don't know about any others as of yet. But those are the main problems I've seen.
Joined: 7/13/2005
Posts: 19
Hmm..there is a badge that lets the spin move (z) go faster from the badge shop in mushroom kingdom after chapter 1 if I remember correctly, that's all I can think of that can be exploited.
Attempting:Snoopy - Magic Show (GB)
Joined: 9/23/2005
Posts: 8
Can close call misses be manipulated? If so... Power Rush, Mega Rush and Close call would be a neat combo +6 attack plus avoid anything...plus Mario would always be on 1HP...(so Peril status shows up). Thats about the only idea I can come up with. It won't save the time of you walking or anything but it should help with battles and what to spend level ups on (since you'll want to be at 1HP ASAP) so its probably not that usful.
Joined: 3/19/2006
Posts: 24
I would try to do the speed run for Paper Mario, Except for the fact that i suck. It would take a long time for me to beat it.
Skilled player (1513)
Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland
I agree that 4:15 sounds like a possible TAS time. I haven't watched the SDA speedrun yet, but skipping normal enemies and finding a leveling-up place somewhere might bring a good result. Speed Spin Badge is a must after 1st chapter. Unavoidable battles could be passed either by killing enemies fast with items like Shooting Star or scaring away with Fright Jar. In Dry Dry Outpost there's a magician behind boxes in alley (can't remember name) who grants powers for Mario once in a while in battles, increase damage or experience gained. I don't know if it happens only once in three turns or is it random. Maybe it depends on how much you pay her? I have just recently started playing for first time and only final battle awaits.
Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
To heck with glitchy graphics and menus! After all, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time's menu takes a while to come up just like in Paper Mario and it actually affects the length of the run! Besides, I'd love to see Mario zip by enemies by a hair.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 141
Unless I'm mistaken, it is possible for Mario to dodge literally every attack. Some are just easier than others. But even that, if you happen to have to get hit, there are Boo's Sheets and Bow's Hide ability. If that is true, then it's possible to zip through the game and only fight essential enemies and bosses. And the "Danger Mario" build would be recommended to be able to kill in minimial time. The cut-scenes will be annoying, though. :P
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
Sketchie wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, it is possible for Mario to dodge literally every attack.
Uh, no. I think you're thinking about Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. You can, however, minimize each attack's damage with the action command after you get the Lucky Star.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
I haven't played this in a long time, so my memory may be fuzzed, but: There are a few special attacks, such as Shrink Stomp that have extra effects if you time your action command perfectly. These could be abused like heck on bosses. Also, perfect power bouncing plus spike/flame shield takes down anything in one (loooooooong) round. Is there a Pup-Ddown badge in this game? What about All-or-nothing? Finally, you can stock up on Mystery items in the boo area...
Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
JSmith wrote:
Is there a Pup-Ddown badge in this game? What about All-or-nothing?
Indeed there are!
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 7/31/2005
Posts: 128
Location: Virginia
Sketchie wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, it is possible for Mario to dodge literally every attack.
I think you're thinking of the sequel (at least I am), where Superguard negates damage and can hurt the opponent. I don't think we're going to be seeing Gamecube TAS runs any time soon, though.
Working on a mod of an old favorite in my spare time. PM for updates!
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 66
Hello, I am new to the site and this will be my first post. Right to the point: I'm got very into Paper Mario recently and I think it's a great and very underrated game. You can figure out how to beat any battle mathematically before it's even fought. I'm currently going through a run of the game without using badges, items,or partner upgrades and so far it's been possible without any (or at least very little) additional leveling up-I've gotten past chapter 4. Here are my suggestions: Out of battle you can avoid all of the "random" battles. Getting the speedy spin badge would be needed to save a lot of time. You can spin dash-jump cancel to get around everywhere and minimize time. You get the Power Jump badge automatically right at the beginning, and it should be useful for doing more damage and saving in battle time. You also get the close call badge which makes enemies miss you if you have 5 hp or less. I believe that all attacks can miss you so this can be manipulated. It would also be helpful to keep Mario at 10 max HP so you can easily get him in danger and make him invincible (for the TAS purposes anyway). Even avoiding all the "random" battles, you still get enough star points to level up a few times throughout the run and you can use those for more FP (depending upon what the speed-run maker decides to do more BP may be needed) so that you don't have to waste time collecting FP healing items. The close call badge will take maybe a couple extra seconds to get, if that. The Mega Rush badge is kind of out of the way, and the extra damage it gives will save surprisingly little time in the battles you can use it for. It will also take some extra time to get Mario down to exactly 1 HP. I'm not discounting its usefulness completely though. The Power Rush badge is even more out of the way and even though it's more readily usable, it may save a turn at most for maybe a couple battles. Also, Power Rush and Mega Rush do not stack. After Chapter 5, you get Sushie, and you can upgrade her to Ultra rank before you have to fight any battles with her. At Ultra Rank she gets Tidal Wave which seems to have unlimited damage potential. My computer is crappy so the emulation lags sometimes and one time I was doing tidal wave at half-speed emulation and I got Sushi's damage up to 14. The button prompts kept going off the screen so if you were playing frame by frame with save states you could theoretically get her damage up to whatever you needed it to be and beat any enemy after chapter 5 in a single (very fast) turn. I think you get 5 seconds to push buttons, which is 300 frames. I'm not positive that the damage is unlimited though. Even if it isn't, I'm sure you can get the damage up really high and beat anything in say a maximum of five turns. If you put all your level ups in FP you should have all the FP you need to finish these battles without even healing it. This will not work for Power Bounce since the damage keeps going down and won't hurt some enemies, and Power Bounce also lasts for a lot longer. I don't believe that any additional leveling up is necessary since with the TAS setup you can probably beat the game with only 10 more FP and that's only 2 level ups. Bow can also scare away all the (normal) enemies after her first upgrade which is not out of the way at all, and I believe you can get a fright jar with minimal path straying. I know how to win all battles before chapter 5 without taking any additional time to get/use items, badges, or upgrades, but going out of the way to get such upgrades may save more time in the long run. I'll be willing to work on this TAS with someone but I don't really know anything about frame-by-frame playing or how to optimize the out of battle movements. I'd probably be more helpful just in the planning.
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
I think a good general strategy for this game would be to go all-out offensive and manipulate Close Call, Lucky Day, and/or Pretty Lucky to never take damage. Then you could concentrate all on attack and never have to worry about defense. The best way to do this (assuming enemy misses can safely be manipulated in almost every situation) would be to have Mario in peril (1 hp) the whole game and reap the benfits of the Mega Rush badge, which increases Mario's attack by 4 for only one badge point. The bagde isnt found until Tubba Blubba's castle, but before then a different strategy could be used. The following badges are badges that would help with this strategy by boosting offense and luck of enemies missing whenever possible: All or Nothing (4 bp) - Bought at Rowf's Badge Shop after Chapter 4 (100 Coins) - Mario's attack power will go up by 1 if he successfully uses the action command. If not, his attack power goes down to 0. Close Call (1 bp) - Goomba Road - When HP is 5 or lower, enemy attacks fail 1/4 of the time - this should be able to be manipulated to never take damage during the run Lucky Day (7 bp!) - Received from Goompapa after the letter trading sequence - causes some attacks to miss regarless of HP - would make Close Call manipulating easier maybe? Mega Rush (1 bp) - Tubba Blubba's Castle - When Mario's HP drops really low and he's in "peril", his attack power goes up by 4 Power Bounce (2 bp) - Koopa Bros. Fortress - For 3 FP, Mario can bounce on an enemy continuously until you miss an action command - this would be great for boss battles early on before you had a lot of power, bosses could be defeated in one turn with tools P-Up, D-Down (2 bp) - Crystal Palace - Your attack power goes up by 1, but your defense power goes down by 1 - a nice alternative to Power Plus, since defense doesnt matter anyway Power Plus (6 bp) - Shy Guy's Toybox; Traded by Merlow for 25 Star Pieces - power goes up by one (2 if you wear both) Pretty Lucky (3 bp) - Traded from Merlow for 5 Star Pieces - alternative to Lucky Day Speedy Spin (1 bp) - Bought from Rowf's Badge Shop after Chapter 1 (50 Coins) - spin dash goes futher and faster - this is a must Spike Shield (2 bp) - Dry Dry Ruins - Allows Mario to safely jump on spikey enemies without getting hurt None of theses badges except Power Bounce require FP, so most of the upgrading could be used for Badge Points. Health should never need to be upgraded. One thing to consider: Mario's base power with the Ultra Boots is 4 when you first hit the enemy (an action command hits twice and makes it 8). The badges above increase this Power by another 8 (AoN 1, MR 4, P-up 1, PPx2, 2). So now Mario's base jump damage is 12 (24 with action command). If you use a Super Jump Charge (4 fp, 2 badge points, Bought from Rowf's Badge Shop after Chapter 5 (100 Coins)), your jump power goes up by another 3, making it 15. If you then use a Power Bounce, Mario's attack will be 15+14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1+1+1+1.... which gives 124 damage! This is the most exaggerated case, and you probably wouldnt have Super Jump Charge, but this just goes to show how you could easily defeat any boss in the game in one turn. With the boss aspect taken care of, we now have to consider enemy battles. The vast majority of random enemy battles can (and should) be avoided. This means a minimal amount of level ups, but level ups are not really needed. The only thing they're needed for is bp, since hp will always be low and fp will only be needed for Power Bounce in the boss fights. The badges listed above dont really require much bp at all: Lucky Day and Pretty Lucky are probably not necessary at all, and the Power Bounce badge need only be equipped for boss battles. If Mario is at a low level when he reaches a boss, bosses will give him tons of star points, enough for one or two level ups each, which would be more than enough for the suggested badge combination, especially because many of these badges arent available right away so there'd be time to level up from bosses before reaching these badges. If there are some unavoidable battles that arent "boss battles," you could just use a Fright Jar (which gives no star points but oh well) on them (only 5 coins at Shroom Grocery). Fright Jar isnt guaranteed to scare away all enemies, but this could probably be manipulated to work. If you absolutely have to fight an enemy and a Fright Jar wont work (very unlikely), itd be very easy to kill them without using fp or even letting them have a turn in most cases. Baisc strategy: if there are 2 enemeis, Mario attacks one, partner attacks the other, done. If there are 3 or more enemies: Mario attacks 1, partner attacks one, remaining 2 enemies attack and miss, Mario and partner take turn 2 and finish battle. Better strategy: if there are 3+ enemies, kill them all in one turn by option A: sacrificing some fp and using a move such as Sushi's Tidal Wave, any of Koopers' attacks, Quake Hammer, Multibounce, etc. Or, since we wont have much fp, the better option B would be to stock up on Mystery bags in Boo's Mansion (only 1 coin each). Then manipulate these mystery bags to be a Thunder Rage every time, which does 5 damage to all enemies. If the enemies have more than 5 hp, you could use double or triple dip to do 2 or 3 Thunder Rages, do a parter ability that attacks many enemies, or use Star Storm. But there wont be many required non-boss battles that a Fright Jar wont work on. So the way I see it, do a damageless run using maxed out power. Avoid all possible battles since they cost time and you dont need to level up much. Use maxed out Power Bounce for boss battles, and use the level ups you get from them to supply bp, never needing to increase hp of fp. I think this would be the best overall strategy. Thoughts on this? Is anyone thinking of doing this run? I could help make it or just contribute strategies or whatever is needed (I dont think I could or would want to do the whole thing by myself). This would be a very awesome game to TAS and I'd love to see a run of it. :)
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 66
My post seemed to go ignored =( You get some of it right thegreginator but you also go overboard on some things, especially when it comes to power vs. time. I'm pretty sure all you need is Close Call to avoid every attack in the game (not 100% positive about this) It only costs 1BP, and I don't think the other two "lucky" badges are needed. There's no attack that does more than 10HP damage to Mario (in any battle that you would have to fight) so you could get into danger status and activate Close Call without any outside work. You may not need the Mega Rush badge, and it does take a little excess time to get. It may not save as much time as you might think, especially when you take into account that you have to get mario to 1HP, but on the other hand it might actually end up saving time-not sure yet. Before then, you can depend on the Power Jump/Power Bounce Badges which you get relatively early. I don't think you would need any of the badges you mentioned except for close call and speedy spin (mega rush and power bounce might come in handy. MIGHT) Mario's Power with the Ultra Boots is 3, not 4. Most (practically all) of the badges you suggest getting to boost power would take waaay too much time to get. You only get coins from random battles and hitting blocks so you're not likely to have very many coins at all and you need 50 for the speedy spin. Collecting star pieces also takes a LOT of time. I'm not positive, but I believe that as the damage goes down with power bounce you won't be able to hurt enemies that have defense, so the damage is actually limited. This also takes a really long time and would require a lot of manipulation (not like that's a problem) If playing on an emulator the menu opening has lag that counts to total time, so we would want to change Mario's equipment as little as possible. I suggest leaving the power jump and close call equipped until you get power bounce. Actually power jump may be better than power bounce in every boss battle it's used, not sure yet. The most Star Points any battle (or boss) gives Mario is 55, even at level 1, so there will not be that many level ups. There should still be more than enough though, especially since you're forced to fight random enemies from time to time. I don't recommend upgrading BP though since I think you would really only need 3, but you might have to upgrade it once if mega rush comes into play. Any of the other attack up badges seem like too much of a hassle to me. Fright Jar could be used to scare enemies away until you can upgrade Bow (her upgrade is not out of the way at all). The time it takes to get ahold of fright jars/money for fright jars might be in excess of the time it takes to just win some of the battles however. Again, getting mysetery bags would take time, as would the time it takes to use them. Things like thunder rage and starstorm, even though they cause more damage, have a long animation time, so total time might actually be shorter if you use weaker, but faster attacks. You also totally ignored what I said about Sushi, upgrading her to ultra rank gives her tidal wave which I believe has UNLIMITED DAMAGE POTENTIAL and executes much faster than Power Bounce. It costs 6FP, but by the time you get her in Chapter 5 you should have a lot of FP from level ups if you mostly (or totally) ignore BP. Obviously, HP should be ignored. The only battle you would have to use it twice in a row is the lava piranha and thats 12 FP which is only 2 level ups. You should easily have 15 FP by then. I admit you have to go a little bit out of the way to get Sushi's rank upgrades, but not that much. The alternative would be to get/equip the Ice Power badge to use Power Bounce, and the in-battle time of Power Bounce plus the out of battle time to get the Ice Badge (I forget how out of the way it is) would probably take more time than upgrading Sushi. Any other strategy would definitely take longer.
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
You probably know about about this game then me TGPrimus. I considered Sushi but didnt think it was feasible because the fp was so high. What is the max damage you can get with a perfect Tidal Wave? If this is enough to take out a boss (coupled with an attack from Mario) then this might be a good idea. I'm assuming that the planning should be done mostly for the boss fights since almost every random battle can be avoided. I agree that some badges wouldnt be worth the time it takes to get them, I was just throwing out ideas. I definately think Mega Rush would be more beneficial over Power Rush though. 2 more damage per turn would definately add up, and getting Mario to 1 hp wont be that hard, especially if you choose when to do defensive action commands. Once he's at 1 hp, he will stay there for at least an entire chapter, until he levels up. For the Sushi strategy, what would you do before that? Sushi is gotten relatively late in the game (2nd to last partner). I think we might as well work on planning this run now, even if no one has stepped up to say they'll do it. That way the planning will be ready for them. I am considering working on this run (hopefully with someone else) after my SMW Small Only. As far as planning, we should start by listing out every mandatory battle in the game so we can find the best methods for winning those battles individually and as a whole. (Let's say a mandatory battle is any battle that must be entered, even if a Fright Jar will work on it.) We can also figure out when it would be worth it to go out of your way for a badge, and whether more attention should be paid to bp or fp. The one definite thing as I see it is that we will never upgrade hp and either use a danger Mario or peril Mario strategy most of the time for lots of attack power. Also, speedy spin is probably necessary. EDIT: This SDA topic might be helpful.
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 66
The FP is kind of high for Tidal Wave, but I don't think there's a limit on the damage for it (not positive about this though, honestly). One time I got it up to 14 damage and the indicators kept going offscreen so I assume it will go forever, or at least long enough to get maybe 30 or so damage? The animation for the attack is kind of long though. By normal means I can only get maybe 6-8 of the indicators depending on luck, at half speed I got 14, frame by frame you can feasably get 300 if there's no actual limit on the damage. Sushi does come kind of late, but if she really does have unlimited damage with this ability she'll be helpful for more important battles, especially final bowser. You only need say 15 max FP to use tidal wave as much as it's needed, and you're pretty much guaranteed at least two level ups throughout the game so FP should be a non-issue. As for whether using Mega Rush (or possibly power rush) would save more time than it would use, I think the only way to find out would be to actually do it both ways and see which was faster. I have no idea what the result will be but based on current gameplay and ideas I'm leaning towards Mega Rush being at least slightly slower. Before that we would have to depend on power bounce, and again I'm not sure whether or not it will work on an enemy with defense; I'll have to test that ASAP. Even without any badges or upgrades, victory is still possible on everything up until you can get Sushi (I have actually done this). To find the fastest method I guess we would just have to figure out each different way and see which was fastest. Things we need to pay attention to: Fastest way to get coins for speedy spin/fright jars/other badges Smallest number of partner changes Smallest number of menu openings. Everything else like shortest battle time and fastest route should be fairly simple. Here's a list of Mandatory Battles and my suggestions for each: Jr Troopa 1 - no action command yet Now you get Power Jump and Close Call Blue/Red Goomba - Power Jump to the full extent of FP Goomba King - use goomnut tree, attack-still no action command Magikoopa - beat ASAP with action commands Now you get Kooper 4 Fuzzies - do 1 dmg with mario jump (I believe it's faster than hammer), then power shell twice in a row. This will kill one and forfeit its attack animation which is longer than the jump Koopa Troopas - Fright Jar, or beat as fast as possible Now you get power bounce More Koopa Troopas - Usually they can be beaten in one round, Fright Jar may be faster but I doubt you'll have money for it, and you NEED to save. Now you get Bombette More Koopa Troopas, easy with Bombette FP 3 Bill Blasters - I doubt Fright Jar works on them. They can be beaten equally fast with Kooper or Bombette using FP, just heal before. Bombette is probably the better choice as I would have her out for the next battle as well and partner swaps should be minimized. Fake Bowser + Koopa Bros. - This one will be tough, either Kooper or Bombette may be faster and it will depend heavily on how much FP is at our disposal. Bomb does 5 dmg and can knock down the Koopa Bros. tower in one turn. Power Boucne takes out any Koopa Bro on its back. Jr Troopa 2 - Power Bounce, if it will work. Otherwise Bomb away. 3 bomb + 3 hammer = dead. There might be a faster method with items but I doubt it. 3 Pokey Mummy Battles - get first strike with Bomb, then just use Bomb to kill the rest. I'm not sure if the enemy types for these battles can be manipulated or not-if so, make sure there's only two Pokeys and no bats. Fright Jars could be faster. 2 Stone Chomps twice - yet again, use Bomb. You might be able to scare them away, not sure. Tutankoopa - Break out Parakarry, Shell Shot and Power Jump. I'm not sure if Tutankoopa's attacks can be manipulated or not. If so, make it so he never knocks your partner out. Now you get Bow, and you can upgrade her before using her so there's probably no more need for Fright Jars. The upgrade will take a few seconds but Spook will probably save time in the long run. Now you get the Mega Rush badge (possibly) Tubba Blubba's Heart - Power Bouncing him to death right away is probably fastest. Tubba Blubba - Same thing Jr Troopa 3 - Same thing Big Lanter Ghost - Light up with Bow's attack, then Power bounce to death Now you get Watt Shy Squad, Stilt Guys, Shy Stacks - Power Bounce I'm sure General Guy - Power Bounce if possible. If not, Power Jump + Watt works fine. You might want to take out the light bulb first but you may not have to, I'm not sure if you'll need Watt or not to make it faster. Fuzzipede - Power Bounce Now you get Sushi and can upgrade her once, it's slightly out of the way. Two Putrid Piranhas - Spook Three Putrid Piranhas + W Magikoopa - Spook There's two upgrades in the Volcano, but I'm positive one is faster. Get Sushi to Ultra Rank. Now you get the Ultra Hammer. Lava Piranha 1 & 2 - Tidal Wave Jr Troopa 3 - Tidal Wave 4 Monty Mole Battles - Spook, but if there's only one killing it may be faster Lakilester - Tidal Wave 3 Lakita + Y Magikoopa - Spook Huff n. Puff - Tidal Wave 3 Bloopers - Tidal Wave Now you get the Ultra Boots Jr Troopa 4 - Tidal Wave Monstar - Tidal Wave Duplighost - Fright Jar, or kill easily, or Spook 3 White Clubba battles - Spook Crystal King - Tidal Wave Koopatrol Battle - Spook (probably) Bombshell Bill Blaster battle x3 - Tidal Wave Duplighost - Spook Jr Troopa 5 - Tidal Wave Bowser 1 - Tidal Wave Bowser 2 - Tidal Wave Bowser 3 - Tidal Wave There's still some unanswered questions though: Is Tidal Wave really unlimited damage? Can Power Bounce keep working on an enemy with defense? And a lot more to figure out.
Former player
Joined: 6/4/2006
Posts: 267
Location: CO
Power Bounce will work on an enemy with defense, you just subtract say 2 from each bounce if it has a defense of 2. Also, there may be times when Power Bounce will need to be used over tidal wave in the interest of conserving fp (and maybe even faster in some cases). The Jr Troopa battles come to mind for warranting a power bounce. As far as Power Rush vs Mega Rush: Power Rush is a side-quest with peach where she has to put it in the transporting chest (between chapters 2 and 3). This will probably take 1-2 minutes since peach is so slow. Then, Mario has to go up to shooting star summit to open the chest, which is probably another minute or two. Mega Rush, on the other hand, you can get immediately afterwards (chapter 3) in Tubba Blubba's castle. It isnt far out of the way, just in a sideroom, and will take a minute max to get. Not only is it faster to get Mega Rush, but it will save lots of time in battles, since it gives Mario 2 more attack than Power Rush. Example of where it could be used: Jr Troopa 4 has 20 hp and we have ultra boots which do 3 damage+4 for Mega Rush=7. If we had any of the attack boosting badges it would only take 3 hops to beat him (8+7+6=21). If we dont, it will take 4 hops (7+6+5+4=22). Whether 3 or 4 hops, this would be much faster than using tidal wave since tidal wave takes around 5 seconds and 3 (or 4) power bounces take maybe 2 seconds. This would also save 3 fp as opposed to tidal wave. Jr Troopa 4 is just an example, but I'm sure there are many more cases where Power Bounce-Mega Rush or anything-Mega Rush would save time and fp. I think power bounce should be used in cases where there are 1-2 (parter takes out the other one), and tidal wave when there are 3-4. Two questions: can you make your partner attack first in this game (I know you can in TTYD)? Is riding on lakilester faster than the ideal combination of spin dashing and jumping? This site could be very helpful in planning. It has info on just about everything in the game. Paticularly useful is it tells you how many star points you get from each enemy and boss depending on your level, so knowing the enemies we have to face, we can calculate exactly when will get level ups and know when and how to get Mario's hp back down to 1 for Mega Rush (or 5 for Power Rush). Also, check out this video of someone getting Power Bounce without getting Bombette first. This could save a lot of time. It also makes you wonder if you can do this with other walls, maybe it needs testing... EDIT: If someone can provide a savestate of after you have Sushi, I can do testing on Tidal Wave.
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 66
What I mean about the Power Bounce/defense thing is will it keep counting down to 0 if the enemy has defense and then stop doing damage? So say you're attacking an enemy with 1 defense with power bounce and you do 3, 2, 1, will it keep doing 1 or will the defense absorb the 1 and you'll start doing no damage? If so that could be bad. I agree that Power Bounce would be faster on Jr. Troopa 4 in the scenario you suggest, but keep in mind Mario would have to be at 1 HP to activate the Mega Rush badge and since a) you get fully healed at the end of the chapter and b) Jr Troopa has an attack power of 5, getting to 1 HP in that battle would be impossible. To get to 1 HP in another battle would take even more time, so even if Power Bounce + Mega Rush in and of itself would be faster, activating the combo would take longer than a single Tidal Wave. There may be other scenarios where Power Bounce+Mega Rush works though. It's not all that out of the way. Power Rush is definitely way too out of the way, I'd say Peach's trip on her own would take well over a minute (including some dialogue about the treasure chest) and Mario getting to shooting star summet from where he starts out in Toad Town would take a really long time and probably account for many turns in battle and I don't see it saving that many frankly. I suppose we'll have to test it out. I don't see us getting any attack up badges, they're all just too out of the way for +1 attack power and almost certainly not worth it in the grand scheme of things. To answer your questions, yes your partner can attack first. I'm almost positive spin dash+jump is a lot faster, especially with perfect reflexes (you can jump for as little time as possible). Getting on and off Lakilester takes a bit of extra time too. Again we'd have to test it (and a lot of things) out. My Aim name is ImperialForest, I can provide you with a save state with Sushi with tidal wave. I really hope the damage is unlimited or at least really high as this will save a lot of hard work, especially if defense cancels power bounce.
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