How is this remotely any differently than up+down or hitting a,b,a,b on every frame of a movie?
There is physically no way for the buttons of a normal unmodified controller to do that... especially in beat to the frames. TAS is all about input that is impossible to perform on a console.
It's entirely different. Up and down can never be pressed at the same on a real controller without removing the D-pad. The tilt can be adjusted on an N64 controller with no modification.
As for a,b,a,b on every frame, yes, this probably couldn't really be done, but you wouldn't have to rip open your controller to try.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Joined: 7/29/2004
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I think people are missing the fact that there are 3rd party N64 controllers that have more than 63% tilt. That said, I don't really care. It is exactly like left+right or up+down. If you remove parts of the controller, you can physically do these things on the official controllers. I think that a TAS is all about exploiting how a game is programmed using all available glitches. If they didn't think about speed properly, and programmed it to 100% tilt, then good news for us, we can exploit it.
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From what I've understood this does not sound as "bad" as up+down/left+right, and considering that's legal I definately think this should be too.
Exactly. This requires no physical modification of an N64 controller to reproduce. It's something you can really do on a console. If we allow tricks that can only be performed on a console through physical modification of hardware, why not allow a trick that can be done with no hardware modification whatsoever?
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
no. not exactly. people seem to be missing this point. it cannot be done on an authentic n64 controller-- not even with the tilt trick. this is because of percentile compensation in opposing directions, and don't say it can be re aligned in mid game. that would require a pause. it's fine to say it's okay, but not for that reason.
If I understand what you mean, you're talking about the fact that re-centering will cause you to lose tilt in the opposite direction of the one that gains tilt. Point taken. But it could be re-aligned on the fly by, as you say, pausing the game. Technically we could still do that by putting L+R+Start into the emulator, but why bother? In spite of the loss of tilt in the opposite direction, you could still do this on a real console by re-aligning on the fly, if you could "overcome human limitations of skill and reflex", which is the whole point of a TAS.
It sounds like we all agree that it is physically possible to do this on a real console, and your objection, nico, is that you could never really pull it off in real life. A TAS allows you to do things that you could never really do in real life. I only have a problem with things that couldn't be done in real life, regardless of human limitations, if the hardware simply doesn't allow it (up+down).
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Well, it depends on what hardware you use. There could be controllers that separate the D-pad into four buttons, just as there could be controllers whose sticks can reach the entire range of input.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
no, that isn't my point. my point is that in a speed run on the console or on an emulator, realignment would never be an option because by simply pressing the start button, this would make an unbypassable pause-- slowing down the game. so by saying that it's the same thing as just allowing 100% isn't true because just allowing 100% doesn't account for the mid game pausing.
and don't say it can be re aligned in mid game. that would require a pause. it's fine to say it's okay, but not for that reason.
pull out control, set stick in opposite of desired direction, plug back in. no pause required.
So again, this COULD be done in real life, except that it would require a pause or for you to remove the controller. Thanks to frame advance, even inserting a pause wouldn't be a big deal, but I don't think it's necessary. The point is that an N64 controller can be made to accept more than 63% tilt in real life, regardless of the fact that it would cost you some time to do it. There have been times in human history when someone, using a real N64 controller, has sent the input for 100% tilt to his N64 game. I could do it right now. I couldn't press up and down at the same time, but I could have my N64 controller send a 100% tilt. Because it isn't an input that could never be done in real life, I have no problem with it being used.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Note that increasing the range of your input plugin will decrease the amount of precision control you have for finer adjustments (unless your joystick is really good, I guess). So for something like Mario 64 (and probably many other games), when you're sure it wouldn't do anything extra it's probably better anyway to use a range closer to the "real range" so as to get better control.
There should be no question if certain 3rd party controllers have the ability for 100%. Heck you can just make your own controller right? Correct me if there aren't any 3rd party ones like that out there, and no way to make a controller with 100%. If I was participating in an actual human competition like goldeneye and 100% allowed me to get more time than some weirdo using a 63% controller, HELL YEAH I would get a controller with 100% access.
Perhaps not the same thing but it does mean that forcing a "63% rule" is somewhat arbitrary... in any case, no matter what controller you have, you can force it to be aligned to allow 100% in any direction (and realign real-time to get 100% in other directions). So, I really dont' think there is any other position one can take in this community other than allowing 100%.
that isn't true either. default diagonal allows for something like 45 left & 55 up for example. some diagonal inputs will never be able to go to 100 since the most the tilt trick will gain is 50% more, which would be 95%-- not 100%. 63 isn't arbitrary. it's pretty significant seeing how everyone up until now has been playing using that range. i'm not saying to put a restriction on it; i'm just being difficult.
i can say that because of the obvious manifest reference to the n64 console. really, what is the point in you posting that? it doesn't add to anything, nor it does say anything a reader wouldn't already understand. come on.
Well, I'm saying the edge values aren't exactly the same all the time, even on the same controller. The elastic can wear out and change how far you have to push the stick.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I don't think this topic warrants this much discussion... even ignoring all the precedent, allowing 100% will yield the runner more flexibility which can only lead to better movies. Good movies is what the site is all about. But if a runner feels like using 63% than by all means do.
Im sure most games cap out the input in software anyway making the topic mostly moot.
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