Topic by EEssentia

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:07 AM

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EEssentia

Joined: 4/13/2009
Posts: 431

I fail to see how a "serious" TAS cannot be made. You just have to use different strategies. How is that different from any other run? All TASes made optimize to run as fast as possible in emulators, DESPITE emulators not being 100% correct. I can apply the same argument here.

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:13 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

How about you just ask itspersonnal if he wants to make the TAS instead of trying to convince him that being accepted to TASVideos is the most important thing for a TAS to accomplish?

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:16 AM
(Edited: 10/29/2013 1:22 AM)

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kirbymastah

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84

EEssentia wrote:

I fail to see how a "serious" TAS cannot be made. You just have to use different strategies. How is that different from any other run? All TASes made optimize to run as fast as possible in emulators, DESPITE emulators not being 100% correct. I can apply the same argument here.

Save for the fact that you arbitrarily save several minutes from inaccurate load times, as well as changing room/enemy states because of premature loading, and some impossible OoB tricks because loading times are instant? You seriously fail to realize how much loading times affect prime games. It changes the run completely. Try to learn more about the game before arguing about it? <_<

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:18 AM

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EEssentia

Joined: 4/13/2009
Posts: 431

kirbymastah wrote:

Save for the fact that you arbitrarily save several minutes from inaccurate load times, as well as changing room/enemy states because of premature loading, and some impossible OoB tricks because loading times are instant?

So? Different strategies. So what?

You seriously fail to realize how much loading times affect prime games. It changes the run completely. Try to learn more about the game before arguing about it? <_<

No, I understand completely. I have played the game and I have seen speedruns of it.

Abahbob wrote:

How about you just ask itspersonnal if he wants to make the TAS instead of trying to convince him that being accepted to TASVideos is the most important thing for a TAS to accomplish?

Best suggestion ever.

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:26 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

Do you even realize how long it would take to make a full TAS of Metroid Prime? You make it sound like a TAS is something that just appears out of nowhere. Are you going to build a house on crappy foundation? I don't think so. It's a HUGE time investment. If you want to see a TAS so bad, do it yourself.

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:32 AM

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delroth

Joined: 4/3/2013
Posts: 4

FWIW, Dolphin does emulate disc read timing and seek timing - completely inaccurately, but there is a delay added when loading data from the emulated disc. Has anyone actually tested changing this delay and checking if it has any effect on what you're talking about in MP? As far as I can remember, nobody reported any result related to this, so you're not even sure if that issue comes from disc delay or not. If it does come from disc delay, then you need to figure out whether it comes from bad read speed emulation (doubtful - sequential read on a GC DVD is pretty fast, around ~10MB/s) or bad seek speed emulation. A good way to check that would be to trace all the DVD operations done during a MP room loading and computing the estimated time spent seeking vs. reading. Bonus points if you can patch IOS on a real Wii to give you the exact time spent in each DVD operation. No developer is going to care about an issue if people spend years complaining loudly about it without at least trying to analyze and debug it.

Pierre "delroth" Bourdon <delroth> Dolphin Emulator developer

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:39 AM

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Patashu

He/Him

Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017

TASes shouldn't rely upon emulation inaccuracies to produce strategies that are physically impossible to reproduce on console.

My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu

Posted: 10/29/2013 1:44 AM

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EEssentia

Joined: 4/13/2009
Posts: 431

Abahbob wrote:

Do you even realize how long it would take to make a full TAS of Metroid Prime? You make it sound like a TAS is something that just appears out of nowhere. Are you going to build a house on crappy foundation? I don't think so. It's a HUGE time investment. If you want to see a TAS so bad, do it yourself.

I realize a TAS is a huge time investment, but of course, me not a TASer, I cannot comprehend exactly how much. I do not have the patience - or currently - skills to make a TAS, so I am not going to do it. I am not going to force anyone to do it. But I am going to encourage someone to do it. Everything is changing. Software. Hardware. Emulators. Games. And yet, companies keep pushing out new software and hardware, even knowing that it will be obsoleted soon. Yet, even knowing so, they push them out in iterations, iteratively making them better. I can understand that people are unwilling to commit time to something if they are going to have to undo it later due to changes. I can understand that. I can also understand that unless people are willing to take a risk and making something--anything--things will never become done at all. I really want people to feel that even if they invest a year in a TAS that is wildly outdated when it comes out, they should feel proud of their investment and the time they've invested in it. They have created a new production that, at the time it was started, took into account the state of the art techniques that existed at that time. Seen from a different perspective, it takes some years from when a new trick enters the pipeline to when it arrives on the other end. Also, it doesn't need to be a full TAS. A short segment is fine. It doesn't have to use the latest and greatest tricks either. Simply anything at all would be nice. But let's leave it at that. I don't want to upset anyone, and I don't to force anything upon anyone. I simply want to express my thoughts. That's all. I have uttermost respect for TASers around here and I want it to be mutual.

Posted: 10/29/2013 4:28 AM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1706)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

kirbymastah wrote:

Save for the fact that you arbitrarily save several minutes from inaccurate load times, as well as changing room/enemy states because of premature loading, and some impossible OoB tricks because loading times are instant? You seriously fail to realize how much loading times affect prime games. It changes the run completely. Try to learn more about the game before arguing about it? <_<

Can anyone try this to see if it matches the behavior on Dolphin?? Edit: And if it proves the behavior of Dolphin is legit, then can this argument end?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 10/29/2013 4:53 AM

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RachelB

She/Her

Player (127)

Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579

If anyone actually cares, and doesn't just want to complain, feel free to test this, as per delroth's suggestion: diff --git a/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp b/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp index bc6c44f..825c275 100644 --- a/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp +++ b/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ static const u32 DISC_TRANSFER_RATE_GC = 5 * 1024 * 1024; // Disc access time measured in milliseconds -static const u32 DISC_ACCESS_TIME_MS = 1; +static const u32 DISC_ACCESS_TIME_MS = 100; namespace DVDInterface { 32 bit windows build here.

Posted: 10/29/2013 5:33 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

I can test it tomorrow, I need to pull a new build since mine doesn't have disc_access_time.

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 10/30/2013 9:46 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

So did anyone test Rachel's build or not?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 10/31/2013 2:11 AM
(Edited: 10/31/2013 1:05 PM)

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kirbymastah

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 84

AngerFist wrote:

So did anyone test Rachel's build or not?

Abahbob said he'll test it yesterday. Be patient <_< People will test it whenever they have time to do so, and when people try it, they'll post here

Posted: 10/31/2013 6:22 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

Sorry, I was busy TASing Wind Waker >.> I'll get around to it. Rachel, I'm interested in how you chose those values. Were they guesses?

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 10/31/2013 1:24 PM

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RachelB

She/Her

Player (127)

Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579

I did not put any thought into it.

Posted: 11/1/2013 12:42 AM

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gngbng

Joined: 11/7/2012
Posts: 23

approx_access_time = magical_seek_coeff * abs(dest_offset - cur_offset) + 30 / rpm ? Just an idea. I'm not a rotational media scientist.

Posted: 11/1/2013 3:07 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

I tested Rachel's build, load times were still too fast, loads on frigate atleast were non-existant. When I get around to it, I'll do some more testing from OoB manually loading rooms and rebuilding dolphin with different load speeds and access times and see if I can get something close. Idk when I'll get around to it, I've been working on my TWW hack and the TWW TAS a bit recently.

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 11/1/2013 10:50 AM

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OmnipotentEntity

He/Him

Player (36)

Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623

Abahbob wrote:

I tested Rachel's build, load times were still too fast, loads on frigate atleast were non-existant. When I get around to it, I'll do some more testing from OoB manually loading rooms and rebuilding dolphin with different load speeds and access times and see if I can get something close. Idk when I'll get around to it, I've been working on my TWW hack and the TWW TAS a bit recently.

According to this spec sheet the average seek time is specified to be 128ms and the data transfer speed maxing out at 25 Mbps. So even with the patch it's still about 2x as fast as spec'd

diff --git a/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp b/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp
index bc6c44f..bae1e3e 100644
--- a/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp
+++ b/Source/Core/Core/Src/HW/DVDInterface.cpp
@@ -19,10 +19,12 @@
 #include "../Movie.h"
 
 // Disc transfer rate measured in bytes per second
-static const u32 DISC_TRANSFER_RATE_GC = 5 * 1024 * 1024;
+static const u32 DISC_TRANSFER_RATE_GC = 3125 * 1000; //25 Mbps
+//static const u32 DISC_TRANSFER_RATE_GC = 3 * 1000 * 1000; //24 Mbps
+//static const u32 DISC_TRANSFER_RATE_GC = 2 * 1000 * 1000; //16 Mbps
 
 // Disc access time measured in milliseconds
-static const u32 DISC_ACCESS_TIME_MS = 1;
+static const u32 DISC_ACCESS_TIME_MS = 128;
 
 namespace DVDInterface
 {

Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.

Posted: 11/1/2013 6:42 PM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

For whatever reason, I'm having issues building Dolphin 4.0 in VS 2012. I guess I can't help, sorry.

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 11/1/2013 11:13 PM

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SoulCal

Active player (333)

Joined: 1/19/2010
Posts: 383
Location: Texas

Abahbob wrote:

For whatever reason, I'm having issues building Dolphin 4.0 in VS 2012. I guess I can't help, sorry.

Is 4.0 good for TASing now? I may try some TAS on 4.0, since it should technically be the most accurate emulator, but from what I see, load times on it are insanely fast, and therefore inaccurate compared to a standard gamecube.

Posted: 11/2/2013 1:23 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (432)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

1) Get on 4.0.1. 2) In case Rachel's build does not work the way we want, have a look at this: http://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/code/27731/tree/trunk/vice/src/drive/ It's the emulator Vice. According to Lioncash (coder at dolphin) it emulates specifically loading times. Maybe a large portion of its code can be used for dolphin? What do you say Omnipotententity?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 11/2/2013 2:04 AM

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RachelB

She/Her

Player (127)

Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579

Abahbob wrote:

For whatever reason, I'm having issues building Dolphin 4.0 in VS 2012. I guess I can't help, sorry.

You mean 2010? We just moved to vs2013 yesterday, so if you don't want to install that, just go back a few revisions.

Posted: 11/2/2013 3:35 AM

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Abahbob

Player (33)

Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island

Oh, VS 2012 doesn't work? I guess I'll go back a few builds and use 2010 again.

IronSlayer wrote:

Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".

Seems legit.

Posted: 11/4/2013 4:50 AM

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