Post subject: Rockman 1 Segmented Competition.
Player (86)
Joined: 3/8/2005
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Same as Omeg's Megaman2 idea. using Rockman.nes as the rom. Submitting best times on each level seperately. this is Glitchless! Start recording your play at the boss menu screen. For the 6 Bosses, stops when you have recieved the dropping power. For the Wily stages. Due to powers not comming back, i decided to make it the best time of all 4 played at once, same fcm. Gutsman - 1:44 -Vatchern Cutman - Elecman - Iceman - Fireman - Bombman - Wily Full -
Post subject: Re: Rockman 1 Segmented Competition.
Editor, Active player (297)
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How segmented?
Joined: 11/22/2004
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Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
"Rockman.nes" is not very descriptive. I assume you mean the Japanese version of the game. "Rockman (J).nes" is more descriptive.
Player (206)
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What if you want to play ElecMan before CutMan?
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Recently I started making a tool-assisted glitchless Rockman movie. <p/>Because of the restricted goal of the movie (no glitches), these techniques raised some controversy during the making of this movie. <p/><ol><li> Jumping when the ground trembles (Gutsman fight) without losing balance <ul><li> It only requires perfect timing. Just jump at the right moment. You can rely on it with some training if you're lucky. </li></ul><li> Lifting a brick without the brick disappearing (brick duplication) <ul><li> It only requires perfect timing. Just lift the brick at the earliest possible moment. Often done accidentally in the presence of multiple bricks. </li></ul><li> Switching weapons during jump/falling and thus teleporting through an enemy <ul><li> If it's forbidden, it means that you are not allowed to switch weapons in the vertical tunnel at the end of the Bombman stage, because if you do, you'll likely teleport through an enemy as you fall. </li></ul><li> Grabbing the bottom of ladder and suddenly elevating by 24 pixels <ul><li> Most people do it always in the Elecman stage, by accident. </li></ul><li> Releasing ladder quickly and regrabbing it when shooting, to avoid delay </li><li> When passing a ladder, grabbing ladder and immediately releasing it for a small sudden horizontal movement </li><li> Switching weapons immediately after an enemy hits you and thus regaining control with less movement <ul><li> If it's forbidden, again you have to define circumstances in which you are not allowed to switch weapons. </li></ul><li> Entering Cutman's room in the "ouch" pose, and thus falling into the inside of a guts brick, which you can zip through <ul><li> I did it accidentally. See: <a href="https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockcut.avi">https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockcut.avi</a> (440 kB) </li><li> If you do it accidentally, do you have to start over because it's not an accepted gltch? </li></ul></li></ol><p/>So I found out that "no glitches" is actually quite vague. it's difficult to decide, which features of the game count as "glitch". <p/>Taskmaster Vatchern, can you please elaborate on what is allowed and what is not. <p/>(Edit: Yes, I realize this thread is about non-tool-assisted competition. But my point is "what are glitches".) <p/>I'd also like to hear Kelly Flewin's opinion on this.
Player (206)
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Maybe you can ask all that on the Twin Galaxies message board.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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Ladder tricks are allowed. Weapon switching to cancel "being-hit" animation is NOT allowed, but to pass through enemies or shots IS allowed. Under no circumstances can you be inside a solid object, so even accidental falling in Cutman's boss room is NOT allowed. Jumping to avoid stun in Gutsman's room is intentional. The brick duplicationw as never brought up at TG. I've never had it happen to me in normal play, YMMV.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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Boco wrote:
Under no circumstances can you be inside a solid object
So this is forbidden too? I did it at 100% speed with only a handful of retries. https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockheat.avi (790 kB, Rockman 2)
Player (206)
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Ooh, that's a good trick.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
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Bisqwit wrote:
Boco wrote:
Under no circumstances can you be inside a solid object
So this is forbidden too?
Yes. The only exception is if the character isn't under control at the time (like in Woodman's stage when you can pass through walls during the scrolling animation).
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
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If it's tool-assisted, but glitchless, what authority decides what's allowed and what's not? And why is all this being posted in a thread about a non-tool-assisted segmented run?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (206)
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Well... What about how your arm can stick through the walls when you're up against them? Or when you take a hit and you can walk through enemies? Does stuff like that count?
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JXQ wrote:
And why is all this being posted in a thread about a non-tool-assisted segmented run?
Because the topic is not "tool-assisted techniques", but "what is a glitch", and this thread is about making a glitchless movie.
JXQ
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Bisqwit wrote:
this thread is about making a glitchless movie.
I did miss this, apologies. My first question still remains, however.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/22/2004
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Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I think that in order to accurately determine what should be allowed, you need to take a look at why you're doing this. Why do a tool-assisted run that avoids glitches? I think it's because you want to show what the perfect gameplay is like using the thematic context of an unassisted run; as such, you'd have to look at what a speedrunner would or would not do.
  1. Jumping when the ground trembles (Gutsman fight) without losing balance
    • Something a speedrunner would not do. It's too unreliable to use, and add to that the fact it's at the end of a segment rather than at the beginning. It's much more convenient and consistently rewarding to simply jump high when Guts Man is about to reach the ground.
  2. Lifting a brick without the brick disappearing (brick duplication)
    • This is a viable tactic, and I want to do it the next time I record a serious single-segment Rockman speedrun.
  3. Switching weapons during jump/falling and thus teleporting through an enemy
    • Yes, it's allowed, in my opinion. You're only required to stay away from the Select button.
  4. Grabbing the bottom of ladder and suddenly elevating by 24 pixels
    • I see no reason why this should be disallowed. Very easy tactic.
  5. Releasing ladder quickly and regrabbing it when shooting, to avoid delay
    • Again, easy tactic that's very doable.
  6. Switching weapons immediately after an enemy hits you and thus regaining control with less movement
    • Again, that's just taking advantage of a good situation, and when has speedrunning ever been about anything else? I'd say it's allowed.
  7. Entering Cutman's room in the "ouch" pose, and thus falling into the inside of a guts brick, which you can zip through
    • This is a more difficult question. If I were to say that this should be allowed, it would be inconsistent with my legalisation for the Rockman 2 segmented speedrun, in which it's not allowed to do such things in Bubble Man and Heat Man, where they're present and easily doable. For that reason, I would reluctantly say no. However, the reason why I disallow these tactics in Rockman 2 is because Ureta did not use them for his version of the run, and I feel it would take the run to a different tier if we were to use them. So if you take that into account, the answer would be yes.
This is what I hate about avoiding glitches. You can't avoid the need to dictate someone else's route, and that's never a good thing.[/list]
Player (86)
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Omega says: Jumping when the ground trembles (Gutsman fight) without losing balance: This can be done in a speedrun if done with extremely good luck and timing. ive done it a couple times, but not often. Its also not really a risk in the gutsman stage since you can easily start over until its done. Same as Megaman2 Airman stage, jumping on the edge of those enemys at the beginning. Usually a speedrunner will start over until properly done. This is Allowed. Lifting a brick without the brick disappearing (brick duplication): Can be done with the 1 frame perfect timing. I wouldn't really consider this a glitch, if you can get lucky and time this right, i take my hat off for you. This is Allowed. Switching weapons during jump/falling and thus teleporting through an enemy: This isn't really allowed at TG i don't think, but it doesn't really help that much to a better speed unless done in bombman gate room. I use this sometimes myself in my speedruns. This is Allowed. Grabbing the bottom of ladder and suddenly elevating by 24 pixels: I am really against using this. It is doubtful the programmers actually wanted this to happen. It is kind of like zipping, which is a glitch. But, this is easily done by mistake. I will allow this. Releasing ladder quickly and regrabbing it when shooting, to avoid delay: Why wouldn't this be allowed :), This is allowed. When passing a ladder, grabbing ladder and immediately releasing it for a small sudden horizontal movement: Again, like Omega said, very easy tactic. Allowed. Switching weapons immediately after an enemy hits you and thus regaining control with less movement: Allowed yes. If you actually use this in a good spot to save time :). Entering Cutman's room in the "ouch" pose, and thus falling into the inside of a guts brick, which you can zip through: Im going to say No for this. This is a glitch useful or not, it is a glitch. This is Disallowed. This is what I hate about avoiding glitches. You can't avoid the need to dictate someone else's route, and that's never a good thing: If someone's route uses glitches, then they should make a glitched speedrun instead of glitchless. :P.
SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
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Bisqwit wrote:
It only requires perfect timing. Just jump at the right moment. You can rely on it with some training if you're lucky.
isn't that the case of every TAS ? every trick ? basically, they're just commands that a human could reproduce if he had "perfect reflexes". one could justify any glitch this way... but if it's done without tools, then it's maybe "legal"...
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Player (206)
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Oh, yeah, and the programmers of Super Mario Bros. 3 didn't want you to jump when the Sledge Bros. hit the ground, either. Sheesh.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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I just realized that I still have a Guts Man in 1:42 on my hard disk which I never submitted. There's still improvement possible during the boss fight.
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i just made movie.. and im beating only Gutsmanboss http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/853/GutsmanBOSS-Shinryuu.fcm i think i can do it much better somehow.. :)
Player (86)
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http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/854/Vatchern-realtime-7.fcm My NON segmented rockman run. 25:45. Dont see how 24:00 is possible.
Player (25)
Joined: 4/23/2005
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Location: Germany
Its hard to tell the different about a glitch and a trick which save time. For me a glitch is something what happen, but what no programmer have ever think of. So slide through walls fast is for me a glitch for sure. And jump at the top screen to fall to the next screen at the bottom is a glitch too. Another glitch for me in this Mega Man game is the Pause and Start again to hit Bosses more times with the same shot. For me its more a glitch where the programmers have made an error. Get hit or equip weapons to get invisible and run through enemies are more a trick which save time. So I would maybe accept this. But the problem in the Cutman Boss is, that you stand in a solid wall after you get hit. So at this point is more a glitch.
Last TAS finished: Final Fantasy Adventure (4.0 Warp Glitch Run) WIP in the moment: Tail Gator (GB) Matty