I guess I'll post it here. So, to talk about a TAS of this game...I have a couple problems.
First off, lag. The game doesn't emulate lag correctly and it would be impossible to playback an input file on TASbot; the game lags so much less on emulator while on the actual GBA it's pretty laggy. So I'm wondering if it would be okay if I did a TAS of this even though it's much smoother than the game on actual Hardware? I know the last submission was pretty accurate but truly, I couldn't do a TAS without TAStudio with my keyboard because of keyboard ghosting, and I'd rather stick to Bizhawk. Plus I don't even know how they did it.
Another thing I'd like to ask is about categories. This game is repetitive. You play the first half, then the second half, then the last part. The first and second is almost the exact same. It would be a very good TAS game if we do both. If we do both it definitely requires more optimization, despite the fact it may be more boring. So I was wondering if I should do the Birth section or no? IMO it would be far more entertaining if we could just skip to the second half of the game.
If I should do the Birth section anyways, I would probably do 100% instead of Any% instead (I am not the best at optimizing, 100% is far easier to optimise than Any%), so my question is:
Any% that starts at the second half of the game? (Would start from SaveRAM, not Save State)
orrrrrr
100% that starts at the beginning?
Also, referring to an exploit that I found.
CatlyNat wrote:
Also, another exploit.
If you jump when the screen is about to scroll, you use the jet on the first possible frame that will not bump you into the wall. However, instead of doing that, you do something else.
You jump, and while your in the air, you can use the jet 2-5 frames earlier than normal without bumping on the wall, thus saving a couple frames. Though you need at least a level 1 jet, or else you may be wasting time.
I thought this is TAS only, but I found out you can intentionally waste time while the screen is scrolling to the right. Enemy waves spawn on Camera Position, not on Player Position. The camera can take time to catch up to you, thus as long as the camera doesn't stop moving, you don't lose time. Since the enemies despawn earlier than intended by jumping and putting the camera as high as possible, you usually save time. I don't know exactly how much time, but at least half a second each wave, which is a lot for a TAS. Current Birth% TAS that was rejected can definitely save at least 10 seconds. (30-40 seconds because NTSC-J is wayy faster than NTSC-U)
i'm votin for the 100%,i don't think the 2nd half would be accepted,just like the first weren't,at least you should do the full any%,no skipping any half
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
Hi,
I work actually on this game for "any%" and "100%" branch. This is a first WIP for "any%" playing on hard difficulty: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/40427458929885725
Thank to Kurabupengin for his commentary.
Hi,
I work actually on this game for "any%" and "100%" branch. This is a first WIP for "any%" playing on hard difficulty: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/40427458929885725
Thank to Kurabupengin for his commentary.
30 seconds in and I notice you didn't know about a little trick that can save about maybe 20 seconds overall in 100%.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/336960190735843329/337567731606093825/Faster.gif
Basically, when an enemy wave ends, you'd jump and dash. It ends the wave earlier and lets you move to the next screen earlier. I did not do it very optimally in the gif there but I managed to save 5 frames from this alone. So...hope that helps :)
Although besides the little time saver, you did quite a good job on stage 1. I wish you luck with the TAS.
30 seconds in and I notice you didn't know about a little trick that can save about maybe 20 seconds overall in 100%.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/336960190735843329/337567731606093825/Faster.gif
Basically, when an enemy wave ends, you'd jump and dash. It ends the wave earlier and lets you move to the next screen earlier. I did not do it very optimally in the gif there but I managed to save 5 frames from this alone. So...hope that helps :)
Although besides the little time saver, you did quite a good job on stage 1. I wish you luck with the TAS.
Thanks for your help, I think remake the first level for have a good comparison and beat the game faster.
It's a great optimisation, but i view that the hornet, move at a different position, indeed, enemie appear to the screen with a RNG factor, linked at player's position and her move, i use this luck manipulation for have optimized screens. I go to manipulate luck to includ this new trick and save time, and post a new WIP this weekend, if I have time to do a lot of tries!
I viewed than you had a problem to the difficulty choice!
I can understand that you do a comparison between speedrun and TAS, but the "speedrun" community search to reduce time, forcing them to choose easy difficulty for more simple executions and try easy deathless, due to don't have a tools assisted for make the run.
You make a TAS, so you cannot doing like if you don't been assisted by a numerous tools to choose difficulty max.
Easy and normal don't have a challenge, because you start the game with a maximum power, enemies are very easy to beat & bosses are not bosses!
Take 2 damages to dying, in hard difficulty!
Don't TASing, if you haven't a max challenge, because challenge is entertaining factor, but more hard to make!
And, if you think this game is repetitive, I answer to you simply, where is entertainment when you use the same strategies to beat the game fast, because indeed, to kill enemies in normal mode, you use laser, move to new screen, laser, move to n... ect!
You find it's entertaining?
I find not!
In hard mode, you must find the best solution to beat enemies fast, and to do it, you use a numerous actions and different powers to obtain a fastest game and create an epic fights, to entertain viewers!
For me, TAS is an art, not just a world record!
AMAZING WIP, it looks really good,which run are you going to do?is the initial route the same for both runs?
Thank you,
yes, I work actually on this two runs.
No,in "100%" it isn't the same route, it have some differences and more boss fights, I think "100%" is more interesting than "any%", because it is more difficult to choose a good route planning and have the best inventory gestion (power) to beat the game fast.
But "any%" is more fast than "100%", and don't start as "100%" branch.
And, if you think this game is repetitive, I answer to you simply, where is entertainment when you use the same strategies to beat the game fast, because indeed, to kill enemies in normal mode, you use laser, move to new screen, laser, move to n... ect!
Actually, Normal Mode is much harder than Easy Mode. Easy Mode is repetitive, but Hard Mode is just as repetitive as Easy Mode. Normal Mode is most balanced. You only have 5 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 5. In Hard Mode you have 3 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 3. Hard Mode is, while more impressive to those who are EXPERIENCED with the game, more boring to the general audience than Normal Mode. Normal Mode is a balance between Easy & Hard Mode, and is certainly the least repetitive mode.
Easy Mode uses EX moves too much, Hard Mode takes too long with certain bosses. Normal Mode has a balance between EX moves and normal attacks. Unlike Easy Mode, the EX gauge does NOT fill up with EX attacks, so EX moves aren't as repetitive as Easy Mode, whilst you have more of a balance so normal attacks don't always have to be used compared to Hard Mode. All in all, I think Normal Mode would actually have more entertainment than Hard Mode.
zoboner wrote:
No,in "100%" it isn't the same route, it have some differences and more boss fights, I think "100%" is more interesting than "any%", because it is more difficult to choose a good route planning and have the best inventory gestion (power) to beat the game fast.
Actually, in the past I've found it easier to route 100% over Any% (or, what I like to call it, "True Ending"). In Any% you need to hesitate, "which people to go for and which not?", while in 100% you simply go for everyone, and it makes it easier to route, for me. Maybe I'll post my RTA route sometime next week, if you'd like. (Would need to write it down) Although the route is for Easy Mode, it would work just as well for Normal Mode I'm pretty sure.
Actually, Normal Mode is much harder than Easy Mode. Easy Mode is repetitive, but Hard Mode is just as repetitive as Easy Mode. Normal Mode is most balanced. You only have 5 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 5. In Hard Mode you have 3 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 3. Hard Mode is, while more impressive to those who are EXPERIENCED with the game, more boring to the general audience than Normal Mode. Normal Mode is a balance between Easy & Hard Mode, and is certainly the least repetitive mode.
Easy Mode uses EX moves too much, Hard Mode takes too long with certain bosses. Normal Mode has a balance between EX moves and normal attacks. Unlike Easy Mode, the EX gauge does NOT fill up with EX attacks, so EX moves aren't as repetitive as Easy Mode, whilst you have more of a balance so normal attacks don't always have to be used compared to Hard Mode. All in all, I think Normal Mode would actually have more entertainment than Hard Mode.
You say that normal mode is more balanced, and it's clearly true, but if in hard mode, you must changed your strategy to beat the game fast, then you should choose this difficulty.
You must understand, that in a TAS, it's normal to choose max difficulty, because you are assisted, and don't worry for the entertainment!
"Normal Mode is most balanced. You only have 5 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 5. In Hard Mode you have 3 EX uses, and you can NOT go over 3".
This explanation, explain perfectly, why you should make this TAS in hard mode, because normal mode is a lot of easy than hard mode, and this only reason will justifying this choice.
Amy wrote:
Actually, in the past I've found it easier to route 100% over Any% (or, what I like to call it, "True Ending"). In Any% you need to hesitate, "which people to go for and which not?", while in 100% you simply go for everyone, and it makes it easier to route, for me. Maybe I'll post my RTA route sometime next week, if you'd like. (Would need to write it down) Although the route is for Easy Mode, it would work just as well for Normal Mode I'm pretty sure.
"Any%" route planning is very easy, when you know in advance how to manage the power points, and for this I did a lot of try, with RAM addresses (all of "power points" addresses) tested on boss fights and numerous part of game, to permit me a best analysis of "power points" management, after, when you know all of this information, then game is a simple "beat 'm all" where you have must search to finish the level quickly, and to reach game ending.
In "100%" branch it's more hardest to choose the power you want upgrade , because you must to save all of characters, who give 1 "power point" and you have a difficult choice to do!
For ex: in level 3, you must fight BIG-X in "100%", then that you skip this fight in "any%", this who complicate "power points" management, because you are obliged to act compared with all of additional bosses, that you go meet.
In some spots (ex: BIG-X lvl), you must doing a choice: to make a detour for take "power points" and kill BIG-X more quickly or kill BIG-X slowly but don't make a detour! but for instant, I don't have try this solution, maybe it's not possible!
For know which solution is more fast, you must try all of them, and believe me, for make a perfect route planning it's lot of hardest than "any%" branch!
Thank for your vision & knowledge of this run.
Actually, in the past I've found it easier to route 100% over Any% (or, what I like to call it, "True Ending"). In Any% you need to hesitate, "which people to go for and which not?", while in 100% you simply go for everyone, and it makes it easier to route, for me. Maybe I'll post my RTA route sometime next week, if you'd like. (Would need to write it down) Although the route is for Easy Mode, it would work just as well for Normal Mode I'm pretty sure.
"Any%" route planning is very easy, when you know in advance how to manage the power points, and for this I did a lot of try, with RAM addresses (all of "power points" addresses) tested on boss fights and numerous part of game, to permit me a best analysis of "power points" management, after, when you know all of this information, then game is a simple "beat 'm all" where you have must search to finish the level quickly, and to reach game ending.
In "100%" branch it's more hardest to choose the power you want upgrade , because you must to save all of characters, who give 1 "power point" and you have a difficult choice to do!
For ex: in level 3, you must fight BIG-X in "100%", then that you skip this fight in "any%", this who complicate "power points" management, because you are obliged to act compared with all of additional bosses, that you go meet.
In some spots (ex: BIG-X lvl), you must doing a choice: to make a detour for take "power points" and kill BIG-X more quickly or kill BIG-X slowly but don't make a detour! but for instant, I don't have try this solution, maybe it's not possible!
For know which solution is more fast, you must try all of them, and believe me, for make a perfect route planning it's lot of hardest than "any%" branch!
Thank for your vision & knowledge of this run.
Big X takes a hit or two less without the detour. "To know which solution is faster, you must try all of them", well, sometimes it's kind of obvious to know what's faster and is not faster. You only do 1-2 extra damage per Power increasement, so after maybe 5 hits you did 6 hit and Big X took me about 15 hits I think (don't remember it). Okay, I agree for this case it's better to try out both, but it's not always necessary to try 2 or more solutions (if it's obvious) :P
About Normal Vs Hard mode, I was thinking about it yesterday night and I did realize that I let the most important part slide past me, the optimization in fights is harder in Hard Mode. Just...do Hard mode, better off this way.
In general, I wish you luck with the TAS. <3
Big X takes a hit or two less without the detour. "To know which solution is faster, you must try all of them", well, sometimes it's kind of obvious to know what's faster and is not faster. You only do 1-2 extra damage per Power increasement, so after maybe 5 hits you did 6 hit and Big X took me about 15 hits I think (don't remember it). Okay, I agree for this case it's better to try out both, but it's not always necessary to try 2 or more solutions (if it's obvious) :P
About Normal Vs Hard mode, I was thinking about it yesterday night and I did realize that I let the most important part slide past me, the optimization in fights is harder in Hard Mode. Just...do Hard mode, better off this way.
In general, I wish you luck with the TAS. <3
Yes, I agree, sometimes, it's clearly easy to choose the best route, and don't have to make a numerous tries to find a fastest solution!
Thank for your encouragements.
considering how fast is the hard mode WIP,i really have no concerns about the difficulty chosen anymore,it looks like it will be entertaining no matter what
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/40577027770620198
This is a new WIP. I TASing on Bizhawk 1.13.0, because I had a big problems with 2.0.1 and I made this change to have a comparison and know if it's due to emulation or a bad rom!
Indeed, I had work long in the input file, to replace some inputs, because emulator add lag inputs and create desync, it's a nightmare to make this TAS!
I can note, that it's not an emulation problem, because I have same problems with this 2 versions of Bizhawk, and my TAS of "double dragon advance" run well!
It's ROM's problem, but I made some tests with US, EU and hack versions, and problem is persistant!
I go to buy, smart card reader & usb programmer to dump my original cartridge to can continue this job!
Maybe, some person have a solution?!
I going to ask in Bizhawk bug report section.
grassini wrote:
considering how fast is the hard mode WIP,i really have no concerns about the difficulty chosen anymore,it looks like it will be entertaining no matter what
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/40703573752895350
The adventure continue, always with same movie desync problems.
Modifying input file to continue this TAS!
It's not a big problem, but simply, I goes to had to make this in more time than I expected, because I must check the movie to modify inputs in file any time.
I hope, that I'll have not other problem to finish this run!
Rage against the desync.lol
The second level is a "shoot'm up" genre, I know that auto-scroll, can be disappointing, for some viewers, but be haven't afraid, this game is well made, then you'll to forgot them!
Post an movie to watch on youtube later.
thank you for providing encodes,for those who haven`t noticed,they`re on the WIP page
you had one meter left at the end of the Artificial Sun Boss,are you saving it for later?
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
thank you for providing encodes,for those who haven`t noticed,they`re on the WIP page
you had one meter left at the end of the Artificial Sun Boss,are you saving it for later?
Indeed, you are a great observant, but in fact, I have an other strategy, who can save more frames for this fight, but I haven't want to spoil the surprise, for all follower, because, when they'll watching this once finish, I hope they'll haven't impression to watch the same TAS!
If you follow this, I piece of advice you to watch on youtube, because some more optimized parts will be in a next bk2 file, so that on youtube you'll only watching the next level, nothing more ;)
Thank you to comment and continue in this way, because I'll can miss some stuffs or strategies!
Oh yeah btw emulator runs the game inaccurately (emulates lag incorrectly), the actual cartridge on actual console is laggier than what the emulator runs it at. Like, a lot laggier. Idk if it's a problem for the site but it would make it impossible to play the movie back on actual console
Also, it's possible to finish 2-1 way faster.
Defeat every single enemy faster = can save like 10 seconds in TAS just in 2-1 alone.
(I noticed you didn't defeat all enemies asap at 3:50)
Otherwise a really good WIP. (:
Oh yeah btw emulator runs the game inaccurately (emulates lag incorrectly), the actual cartridge on actual console is laggier than what the emulator runs it at. Like, a lot laggier. Idk if it's a problem for the site but it would make it impossible to play the movie back on actual console
Also, it's possible to finish 2-1 way faster.
Defeat every single enemy faster = can save like 10 seconds in TAS just in 2-1 alone.
(I noticed you didn't defeat all enemies asap at 3:50)
Otherwise a really good WIP. (:
Yeah you are right, verified this on console will be impossible due to a lag inputs!
I go to use this stratégy to level 2.1 and thank you to say that ;)
Thank to follow and for all constructive commentary!
It looks like it's been some years since there was a thread actively discussing this game, so I hope enough time has passed to warrant a new thread being made.
I've been working again at making progress at a TAS of this game, after taking an overly-long break. Included below is a recording of the progress I have so far, up to 4-2, complete with the TAStudio interface so that inputs are visible.
A couple of quick notes on the movie:
- It's done on Easy difficulty. I saw in previous threads that people were discussing playing on Normal/Hard, with the reason given that you have fewer Super attacks and need to be more tactical to avoid taking damage, but in most cases enemies are killed fast enough to not take damage to begin with, and I minimise the number of Supers I'm using as it costs close to 2 seconds every time you start one. Easy is also the current standard in RTA runs of this game, which is the environment I come from, and I hope to find potential improvements for RTA strats in the making of this movie. More than anything else though, it's just faster. Easy difficulty = shorter movie file.
- The upgrade route, up until the point I've reached, is to simply put every point into Laser. A significant investment is required in Punch before enemies actually require fewer punches to kill, and the Punch stat does nothing in any autoscroller segment of the game where you are flying and forced to use the Laser. Jet is also not taken because you have virtually infinite Jet usage whilst grounded, and it's only your air mobility that is reduced, and moreover it's not always better to chain boosts in the air as it costs several frames to initiate a boost.
Link to video
Any comments/suggestions are welcome.
Oh neat. I wasn't aware of this game before now. This was definitely a very cool looking and entertaining TAS so far. I'd like to see more!
There shouldn't be two threads for the game though. There's no problem in bumping and old thread if there is something new.
Keep it up!
Just for the record,there's no rule against necroposting on this site. In fact, having only one thread is preferred.
MODERATOR EDIT: That is indeed correct, so I've merged the two threads and deleted the resulting duplicate post. — moozooh
