if you take the red jar on that screen, leave and come back, the door will be gone.
you can despawn keys that way too. eg the key at the top right of palace 1.
not too useful unless you wanted to do a made up category like any% no door fairying.
if you take the red jar on that screen, leave and come back, the door will be gone.
you can despawn keys that way too. eg the key at the top right of palace 1.
not too useful unless you wanted to do a made up category like any% no door fairying.
Hi, I'm new to the community, please forgive me if I'm posting something in the wrong place.
I had a question about the non-glitched run, and the routing of the TAS done by inzult and RisingTempest. In the early game it's amazingly efficient with experience, so much so that a good amount of experience seems to be just thrown away near the end. It looks to me that by spending a little bit of extra time collecting experience in palace 5, it would be possible to get to magic level 7, which in turn would allow you to skip the entire trip to new kasuto to get the final magic jar.
Probably I'm missing something, obviously other people have spent much more time thinking about this than I have. But let me explain what I have in mind, so somebody can tell me where I'm wrong? This has been bugging me for a while now.
So let's say in palace 5 you spend some extra time getting to the magic 6 level up at 2200, ideally just as you beat the boss. In the current TAS the exp total is at 1600, so this would require 650 extra experience points in the palace. I'm not sure how much time that'd take but it seems like it couldn't be more than 15 seconds, if you kill a few extra fire wizards or something. Then, the palace gem would bring you all the way up to attack level 6, at 3000. After that, you just skip the final magic jar, play through palace 6 as quickly as possible, and then the gem there would bring you up to magic level 7. That way you can cast thunder with only 7 magic jars.
So the routing is almost exactly the same, just some extra time in p5 getting 650 more experience, and skipping the magic jar. If this works it seems like it must save time. I suspect there's something wrong, like maybe somewhere in p6 or p7 you don't have enough fairy casts, since magic level 7 only makes thunder cheaper, but not fairy. I watched through the video a few times and didn't see anywhere obvious where the last jar is necessary, but it moves so fast I probably missed something important.
Hey there. You need to have collected all the magic jars in order to be able to learn the thunder spell. It is true that the late game experience is more or less pointless in the current run. I would be shocked if it's the best option as-is. But sadly that idea won't work.
Ah, thanks! I figured I was missing something simple. Too bad, it would fit together so well.
I guess then the only theoretical use for the extra experience would be either going for A7 (which seems impossibly high), or leveling slower in the early game, (which is so splendidly efficient it's hard to imagine you could save any time at all).
Anyways, thanks for the great run!
It was fun to make, I'm glad it's fun for people to watch. I also find it fun to talk about, so I'm happy to answer questions!
The big problem, if you want to call it that, with the xp route is you need Magic 5 for Palace 4 in order to be able to get through efficiently with lots of doors to fairy past in a row. Sword levels are also very useful early, with Sword 3 being needed before Palace 3 in order to kill monsters without needing to slow down a lot. But once P4 is done, additional levels are pretty useless. Magic 5 is already enough for the Great Palace and we manage to get up to Sword 5 basically just by virtue of killing enough stuff for red jar drops, which is good enough for efficient TAS kills on bosses. Sword 6 is taken only because there's no choice; you can't skip levels forever.
After a 12-year break, I'm planning another attempt at the non-glitched run. Let's get all three of our names on this thing as co-authors, or four+ if anyone else has some hot tips.
I'm just getting start preparing, but I tested Link's elevator positioning and found that it wasn't optimal. So already that's a few frames saved on each elevator. Next I'm going to investigate the leveling plan. It might be a while before I actually start playing.
I could use notes, memory addresses, scripts, etc. Particularly something to help with the darkness in the caves. I have the addresses mentioned earlier in the thread. Thanks.
I'm a bit surprised the elevator position is still bad. I spent quite a bit of time trying to eke out every pixel. Anyway, here are some things. I know you probably have most, if not all, of these addresses anyway, but just in case.
0070 b s 0 Link Speed
004D b u 0 Link X Position
03D6 b u 0 Link X Subpixel
00CC b u 0 X position on screen
0029 b u 0 Link Y Position
0516 b u 0 Overworld Spawn Timer
0026 b u 0 Overworld Steps
00C2 b u 0 Enemy 1 HP
00C3 b u 0 Enemy 2 HP
00C4 b u 0 Enemy 3 HP
00C5 b u 0 Enemy 4 HP
00C6 b u 0 Enemy 5 HP
00C7 b u 0 Enemy 6 HP
05E0 b s 0 Large Six-Count
05DF b s 0 Small Six-Count
0777 b s 0 Attack Level
0778 b s 0 Magic Level
0779 b s 0 Life Level
0793 b s 0 # of Keys
0785 is the memory address for if you do/do not have the candle. If you poke the value to 1 with a cheat, you can just have the candle. IIRC this affects the way the invisible moas move later on for some reason, but other than that you can just leave it on or turn it off with no ill effects.
I thought I had Pasky's hitbox viewer, but I guess not. I'll get in touch with him.
Additional Things:
I would be surprised if the XP route was optimal given that there's still waste. I know you said you were looking in to this, but look in to it.
I'm sure you'll check the following things, but I know there are lost frames on the Barba fight. Realized I made a mistake when I changed where I took the sword level in the currently published TAS and didn't start attacking soon enough. I strongly suspect the first Rebonak fight is bad. Unsure on other fights.
In Palace 5, the alternate route of killing Gooma, returning for the flute, then using save & continue is always worth considering. It was used in the previous version of the published movie, but wound up being slower for the current one due to a difference in leveling. Off the top of my head, I think it moved the eventual forced level in my XP route to after Thunderbird.
I am looking at my spreadsheet comparing the current run to the old and as usual my notes are awful. I'm sure they made sense at the time. If you want to look at it anyway I'll provide.
I'm a bit surprised the elevator position is still bad. I spent quite a bit of time trying to eke out every pixel.
After more testing today, I learned that although I do improve the positioning, I don't save any frames. I didn't know that the game would screw me. I improved the positioning by more than a full pixel, but then the game forces me to walk an extra pixel before the black transition screen appears. Maybe it's different at a leftward exit; I haven't tried. This image sums it up (Inzult is the top 2, I'm the bottom 2):
I'll take anything you guys have and see if I can find a use for it. Thank you for the tips. I'll examine every aspect that there is to examine. I'll post notes and WIPs regularly.
I experimented something with glitching. I think getting the candle the glitched makes a certain heart container not appear.
Be especially careful when doing a 100% glitched speedrun as some items may disappear sometimes.
We haven't seen a 100% TAS yet. We would like to see that.
The plan is
1. Convert the game to math ✓
2. Check the travel route
3. Check the experience route
4. Gameplay
Step 1 is done. It's a big spreadsheet like this:
Step 2 is in progress.
-I checked the current method of restarting after Midoro Palace (Swamp), and it is better than walking straight to Island Palace by about 350 frames.
-I did a rough estimate comparing the current method of backtracking after getting the flute to backtracking after defeating Gooma in Sea Palace. It was too close to call. The differences both add up to about 4550 frames. I'll probably end up having to play both routes.
-I wonder whether it's really necessary to do the healing lady in Saria, even though Link needs only 2 seconds. I know it means no sword beam.
-I'm thinking about a few creative longshots but don't expect them to work. The experience route is where there are more likely to be improvements.
If you can get the bots and bats to behave, I'd imagine you can save time here.
I'll have to see how much fighting is necessary in Death Mountain. Theoretically I would want to avoid fighting as much as possible until I get Downstab. I just need to end up with Attack 3 and Magic 5 by the end of Island Palace, assuming that there's no creative way to go 4-4 instead.
One idea for possibly slightly improving the experience route is not is getting Attack 4 from Carock followed by Attack 5 from the Maze crystal. If I instead get Attack 4 at the Maze crystal, I get Attack 5 at the Sea crystal and Magic 6 at the Rock crystal. (Canceling Magic 6 would force Attack 6 at Thunderbird.)
Although I would have to fight Gooma/Barba/Thunderbird at a lower Attack level, I would save 29 frames from not having to take an additional level cancel. And, what makes it worth considering, is that this way also may not require casting Reflect on the 2 wizzrobes in Maze Island, which appears to take about 61 frames. 90 frames v. 8 extra hits on each of the 3 bosses?
The bare minimum the extra hits would take overall is 48 frames, assuming you don't need to add additional delays to adjust for boss knockback or avoid being ejected too far. It shouldn't take 40 additional frames to make those sorts of adjustments since only Gooma really has knockback. Tbird you can do sets of 3 hits with 6 or 7 (I forget) frames of cooldown in between, Barba is much the same. It sounds like that would work as a time gain.
I didn't realize that there were two magic cancels that I'd avoid. The current route from the Maze is
Maze - Attack 4 (1000)
Maze - Attack 5 (2000)
Sea - Magic 6 Cancel (2200)
Rock - Attack 6 (3000)
Rock - Magic 6 Cancel (2200)
What I proposed in the previous post was
Maze - Attack 4 (1000)
Sea - Attack 5 (2000)
Rock - Magic 6 (2200)
So I would get (29+29+61=) 119 frames in exchange for (8+8+8=) 24 more boss hits. So it should almost certainly be faster.
Another idea I looked at was
Maze - Attack 4 Cancel (1000)
Sea - Magic 6 (2200)
Rock - Attack 4 (1000)
Rock - Attack 5 Cancel (2000)
Here I would get (184+61=) 245 frames but it means (20+11+32+20=) 83 more boss hits. It has to be slower than the first idea. The problem is Rebonack II and Barba force 1000 points before the Rock crystal; otherwise it could have been worth (184+184+61=) 429 frames for 95 boss hits.
I've been accepting 3-5-1 as necessary at the Maze. I'll check if there's any possibility of working with 2-5-1. But the likely macro-XP route is the 3-5-1 route that ends 5-6-1. Once it's settled I'll start planning the micro-XP route. Then I can play.
Magic 5 is indeed mandatory to make the current Maze strategy work. It also makes the current Sea strategy work. Magic 3 is sufficient for Rock and magic is not relevant for GP.
At some point or other, I considered using death abuse rather than magic levels in Maze and Sea. It gets pretty complicated, because you can stick taking Magic 4 and/or 5 in there somewhere to refill as well.
Magic 3 adds 2 deaths to Maze, Magic 4 should only add 1. Taking magic 4 inside Maze adds 0 if it can be taken before the final cast of fairy before Carock.
The current route for Sea is fairy, fairy, jar, fairy, fairy, death, fairy, fairy, jar, fairy gooma. A cursory glance says magic 4 adds 3 deaths here. This is, of course, too many and might be why I discarded the whole idea in the first place. But it might be possible to switch things back around and stick with Magic 3 until Maze, then take Magic 4 inside and 5 on the crystal in stead of Sword levels.
Magic first was originally prioritized to save time on gem refills and waiting around for xp, but that shouldn't be an issue at this point, I don't think.
Also, I am not sure why you are taking Magic 6? Does skipping it still eventually force Attack 6? nevermind i am a dumb
Interesting idea there. I could have 4-4-1 at the end of Island. That would also save 29 frames by avoiding the Attack 4 cancel. But a whole death sequence takes about 337 frames. Add 83 frames walking to the Red Ironknuckle to strike the death blow. So we need to make up (420-29=) 391 frames. I went through the scenarios that play out afterward and death takes too much time, even if we didn't need Magic 5 in Sea. Theoretically I could still use Reflect on wizzrobes and get Magic 5 before Carock without death. But then we walk out of Maze at 5-5-1, like the current run, but slower.
On the way to the Hammer, would it be a waste of time to try to get experience from small p-bags instead of dairas? Or do dairas need to get gutted for being in Link's way?
Maze - Attack 4 (1000)
Sea - Attack 5 (2000)
Rock - Magic 6 (2200)
So I would get (29+29+61=) 119 frames in exchange for (8+8+8=) 24 more boss hits. So it should almost certainly be faster.
Nevermind, it was all a waste of time. The right drop isn't possible without Reflect on the wizzrobes. The current experience macros are best, I think. I'll look over the options one more time though.
On the way to the Hammer, would it be a waste of time to try to get experience from small p-bags instead of dairas? Or do dairas need to get gutted for being in Link's way?
One particular red daira needs to be killed inside the Hammer cave, after the elevator. It throws an axe on the way back too quickly to avoid, which knocks you back into the previous room.
Additional dairas get in the way one or more times, and they are killed in the published run, but it might be possible to damage past them, or hit them with your sword then run past.
I'll take anything you guys have and see if I can find a use for it. Thank you for the tips. I'll examine every aspect that there is to examine. I'll post notes and WIPs regularly.
Step 2 is in progress.
-I checked the current method of restarting after Midoro Palace (Swamp), and it is better than walking straight to Island Palace by about 350 frames.
-I did a rough estimate comparing the current method of backtracking after getting the flute to backtracking after defeating Gooma in Sea Palace. It was too close to call. The differences both add up to about 4550 frames. I'll probably end up having to play both routes.
-I wonder whether it's really necessary to do the healing lady in Saria, even though Link needs only 2 seconds. I know it means no sword beam.
-I'm thinking about a few creative longshots but don't expect them to work. The experience route is where there are more likely to be improvements.