I have sort of a good news/bad news for this movie (which I'm very excited about by the way, good work). Saver (aka CrystalSaver) recently found a fairy glitch to skip force encounter tiles. PresJPolk explains it here https://www.twitch.tv/presjpolk/v/88313660
Basically you walk in, cast fairy, tap left until the fairy disappears, then move right to exit the other side. This seems quite similar to the famous Zelda screen wrap technique
I have sort of a good news/bad news for this movie (which I'm very excited about by the way, good work). Saver (aka CrystalSaver) recently found a fairy glitch to skip force encounter tiles. [...] Basically you walk in, cast fairy, tap left until the fairy disappears, then move right to exit the other side. This seems quite similar to the famous Zelda screen wrap technique
Do you know if that works from both sides, or just when going left -> right? Does work both ways.
Arc: If this does work both ways, does the current mp at trap 18 have enough to take an extra casting of Fairy?
I have sort of a good news/bad news for this movie (which I'm very excited about by the way, good work). Saver (aka CrystalSaver) recently found a fairy glitch to skip force encounter tiles. PresJPolk explains it here https://www.twitch.tv/presjpolk/v/88313660
This glitch is a great discovery. But is it acceptable to use it in this category? (Where my judges at?) PresJPolk calls it a wrong-warp glitch. And he specifically says near the end that he thinks it should be banned in most categories. I thought we were keeping speed/fairy exploits in the other Zelda II category.
Pokota wrote:
If this does work both ways, does the current mp at trap 18 have enough to take an extra casting of Fairy?
If I were to use this glitch, I would use it on the 3 bridge crossings (Traps 16 and 15), and then I would pick up that red jar at Secret 20 and use the glitch on all 3 Traps in The Valley of Death.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California
Arc wrote:
(Where my judges at?)
Sup, dogg. Fair bit of warning that I haven't watched all of the VOD yet, so I may be a bit uninformed. Take this with a grain of salt.
I would personally allow it given what I know about it right now, but there are two caveats to this. One is that's just my personal opinion, and it shouldn't be treated as an official judgement, and the other is that I would still not recommend using it in this run until there's some more information about it from the RTA community. We're definitely going to need more information, most importantly the extent as to which this can be used to skip/break the game, because as far as I'm concerned that's the biggest factor involved in whether or not it should be used in the run.
Judging it right now, if all it does is skip those overworld encounters, then I feel like we could allow it, but if it breaks far more than that similar to the warp glitch run, then yeah it shouldn't be used at all. Either way, it's still much safer to not use it at all. We wouldn't reject the run for not using it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Functionally, this seems different than falling off the top of the screen as fairy. What seems to be going on is that the single map trap screens have only one exit but where you end up is based on which way you're moving? It doesn't work on the tunnel to palace 3, for example. On screens like that, you just use the exit that is there, regardless of which way you move over it. Same for the second exit in Saria. So you couldn't skip bagu if you magically already had fairy when you got there. You can't warp from SW Hyrule to NE Hyrule. Fairying off the top of the screen uses a unique exit that isn't meant to be accessible.
Also, you don't need to be fairy to do this. As Link, if you are completely still, 1 subpixel away from the screen transition, hit towards the edge, then away, it works the same. There's no reason you couldn't walk at normal speed, manipulate your subpixel (if possible!), hit a&b right before you transition to kill your speed, then towards and away to skip any trap you want.
I've convinced myself it's fair game, and can't come up with a method to destroy the game with it (so far). I haven't tested up then down on elevators, though...
nothing happens
Arc wrote:
If I were to use this glitch, I would use it on the 3 bridge crossings (Traps 16 and 15), and then I would pick up that red jar at Secret 20 and use the glitch on all 3 Traps in The Valley of Death.
and on the traps on the way to darunia. and maze island. and on the way to hidden town/palace 6 area.
it's work.
edit: abusing exits in this manner is a bit gray, i suppose, and i wouldn't blame you if you didn't do it either. perhaps some viewer feedback is in order.
That's a cool glitch! Hard to believe it wasn't known about until now.
I'm not sure about using it in this particular run though. Isn't it meant to be a glitchless category? The 'goals' of the orignal run said it avoided unintended exits, and this certainly seeems like one.
And if you do use it, why not use left + right and just call it a non-warp glitch run? Seems messy to me.
Still cool though!
It will be so awesome if someone find a way to do something like this in Simon's Quest. It's my long-cherished dream. In Simon's Quest in order to go in next room everything you have to do is touching right or left side of the screen while actually walking. If there is a way to skip for example left side trigger then wraps to the right side of the screen and then touch right side trigger you can do pretty much what ever you want.
Inzult is right; you can do the glitch without fairy:
So you can skip over every forced encounter tile in the game.
Although I think I would need one at Darunia for the drop count.
But there are ~18 skippable encounter tiles with the glitch.
It would break the path through Maze Island.
I'm with everyone in the camp of 'this is cool but we need to think about it more.'
I suggest that Mr Arc finishes his awesome run without the glitch and adds it to the submission-text-list of glitches he forego. That way, his run being publishable and obsoleting the current glitchless any% run should be ok.
However, that does not rule out a future run using the glitch being able to obsolete Arc's run, so that debate would still be needed.
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
Very interesting that it can be done without fairy. Doesn't change my opinion of the live run category ruling though.
It's fun! I just see it as a wrong warp, since you're getting the game to take you to the wrong tile.
If people really want to run it live, I'm suggesting a new category for it. In fact max, skav, jn, and I just hashed it out: Any% No Scroll Lock. Early hammer, thunderbird skip, these new skips... just not the scroll lock which allows early p7 and the barrier skip.
As for TAS categories I'm not sure...
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
In my testing, no. You can't ever change the connectivity of rooms with this. It only changes where you land in the overworld, so you can't skip anything inside a dungeon or other sidescroll encounter.
Well the real question here is whether or not your run is glitchless, or whether or not it's avoiding the gamebreaking left+right glitch only. Ultimately up to you, Arc.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
It's not technically glitchless, it has skipped entering a name, for example, for a long time. Nor does it not abuse the way the game handles screen transitions, we use that to get onto ceilings after a fall. Those are both very minor and don't much affect the overall gameplay, though. I'm not sure you could even make a glitchless run if you wanted to, there's some janky stuff going on that you never even see; based on how the game keeps track of what overworld items are taken and what aren't, it's possible that something is wrong and you'd never even notice. Who's to say a red jar somewhere isn't flagged as taken by accident.
The consideration for this particular abuse being in this branch of the tas is more aesthetic, I think. Is this more of a "whoa, neat" trick, or a "this isn't zelda 2" trick
I think that it makes the most sense to publish both versions as separate branches.
I'd call the version that I'm working on now "any% no gamebreakers." It appeals to the purists who don't want to see sections of the game get cut out when they weren't meant to be cut out. This is "real" Zelda II.
After that, I also want to make "any% encounter warps." This version somewhat breaks the second half of the game. I estimate that it would cut out approximately 2 minutes 15 seconds of gameplay. I think that it would get a higher entertainment rating, as well.
But I don't think that it should obsolete "no gamebreakers." I admit that personally I love Zelda II and wouldn't mind seeing many different categories for it. (And I don't think the FDS version should be obsoleted by NES, either.) But, objectively, Zelda II is a beloved classic—it gets ratings in the high 8 to low 9 range. Beloved classics get multiple branches published. Super Metroid has 7 published movies. The Legend of Zelda has 5.
"Encounter warp" would serve as a middle ground between strict "no gamebreakers" and the true "any%" which fully breaks the entire game in 5 minutes.
Basically, I would put all of the gamebreakers like superspeed, warping, and fairy falls in a #BasketOfDeplorables that should stay out of a "clean" Zelda II run. But the encounter warp is in a lower tier of deplorable gamebreakers and deserves its own branch.
if we're moving to 3 categories, i think it it should be 1) as glitchless as possible 2) anything goes besides l&r 3) anything goes
this also takes a bit of work. As glitchless as possible might well be slower than the published movie, even.
While I agree with Arc that Zelda 2 is a belowed game deservant of many branches, I fear that a judge would not allow a separate brach whose only difference is 2 minutes of gameplay cut from a 45 minute movie.
And while we're talking of categories: What about 100%? Is 100% different enough from any% (collecting 4 more hearts, 5 more spells, 3 more items, and perhaps maxing out levels)? I daresay it'd be way more different than the two any% runs at least, so perhaps a 100% category should forego the glitch, while a any% should have it (or vice versa).
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
Inzult wrote:
if we're moving to 3 categories, i think it it should be 1) as glitchless as possible 2) anything goes besides l&r 3) anything goes
this also takes a bit of work. As glitchless as possible might well be slower than the published movie, even.
I think if you're going to go this route, 2) should be "anything besides l&r or scroll lock." That way you actually get to show off the small glitches. The big glitches possible with l&r or scroll lock just drown out all the small glitches.
It's not just the 2 minutes. The parts that are going to get cut are the most challenging aspects of the TAS. Optimizing those parts takes real skill. While I said the 43-minute version would probably get a higher entertainment rating for demonstrating the encounter warp and cutting time, I would be sure to give it a significantly lower technical score. Personally I would be among those who watch the 43-minute version and say it's a pussified version of Zelda II and less impressive than the 45-minute version. I don't see why either version has to win out over the other; just let them both exist and individuals can decide for themselves which one they prefer.
In The Legend of Zelda categories, you have the regular run and the swordless run with only a 2-minute timing difference. There are 5 separate Super Metroid runs that fall within the 38-46 minute range. I don't think that the similarity of movie length matters.
I am more open to allowing some other gamebreakers into the proposed third "middle ground" category in addition to the encounter glitch. I am more concerned with defending the "no gamebreakers" category from being wrongly obsoleted by gamebreakers.
Basically,
-Keep the current "clean" branch
-Keep the current "true any%" branch
-Create a third branch with the encounter warp and perhaps some other gamebreakers as well
I would like to see 100% categories as well, but that is not the most pressing concern at the moment.
Does "true any%" skip any crystals? If so, I propose the following:
"any%" under our traditional "complete the game as fast as possible" condition
"glitchless" (or whatever you plan on naming this submission's branch) for this branch you're working now
"all crystals" for the middle ground. Since the game-breakingest game breaker of wrong warps isn't completely exploitable when you still have to place all the crystals...
I am for "all crystals," which I think equates to the "no superspeed or scroll lock" suggestion by PresJPolk for the new branch.
So the third branch allows
-Encounter tile warp
-Glitch Town right exit
-Fairy out-of-bounds
Right? We good?
I understand the wrong warp argument from PresJPolk, but I actually disagree even for RTA. For TAS I think it should definitely be allowed. I'm all for having a category where you specifically skip this trick though.
My argument is that it is very much the same as the encounter skips we do now. In that trick we hit an enemy and a force encounter at the same time to get the game to put us in the wrong encounter, in this one we exit an encounter headed the wrong direction to get the game to put us on the wrong tile. I feel like these two are on the same level of broken, but one is more intuitive, easier, and more well known.
They are "very much the same" because neither one completes the forced encounter. But they do so in ways that are metaphysically different in principle. With the encounter warp, you end up somewhere that you're not supposed to be. With the random battle fight, you end up exactly where you're supposed to when overworld enemies touch you—a random battle. It happens before reaching the encounter tile. And after a random battle, you're supposed to start on the tile that you were stepping toward.
It's more consistent to say that the encounter warp is "very much the same" as the Glitch Town right exit and the fairy glitch. They are all minor gamebreakers that cause you to end up somewhere you're not supposed to be. We'll utilize them in a TAS, just in the proper category—minor gamebreakers (a.k.a. all crystals). It'll be a beautiful, creatively rich TAS. Perhaps more people will prefer the minor gamebreakers category to the no gamebreakers category, but they're not in direct competition with each other because they have different limitations. No harm in having both.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California
All this category discussion's making my head spin, but I guess the plan checks out on my end. I would prefer a more robust category than just "glitchless" as the third category though, something like "glitchless 100%" or whatever the equivalent would be for this game, so it would actually have some significant difference.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
So you can skip over every forced encounter tile in the game.
Although I think I would need one at Darunia for the drop count.
But there are ~18 skippable encounter tiles with the glitch.
It would break the path through Maze Island.
I'm with everyone in the camp of 'this is cool but we need to think about it more.'
