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Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
RingRush wrote:
...variety of emulator issues (most notably no version emulates lag properly and has reset recording). [...] In an unrelated note, I do have an emulator that runs the game reasonably well and has TAS tools (although lacks reset recording and thus cannot do a full game run). I am planning a few short, unoptimized demonstrations of some routes and tricks that a full TAS would use, so maybe expect those in the next few weeks.
I've been working on the emulator again for the BK crew (hyperresonance) and thought I'd kill two birds with one stone by addressing some of the DK64 issues. A couple hours ago I fixed saving in Bizhawk for DK64 (it was a minor fix), so full-route 'theory runs' are doable now. My next plan is to tackle physics issues. Mupen64plus has updated since it branched into Bizhawk (in lay terms, Bizhawk is using an old n64 emulator "core") so I'll either a) be updating Bizhawk to latest M64P (more complicated than it sounds), or 2) legitimizing the "Bizhawk" branch of M64P and fixing issues parallel to the m64p team Also, Isotarge (realtime runner) is working with me on the emulator. He has more experience with the game so he'll be a better judge of accuracy than me for specific tricks. - AFAIK Ringrush will be doing an Any% run for tasvideos without prior sram. That route is completable now, but I insist to anyone reading that you hold off on optimizing any TAS until I fix some of the physics issues (vines/trees teleporting you out of bounds, improper lag emulation, and intro/cutscene demos desyncing). The solutions to a few of these have already been found, so they just need to be rolled into Bizhawk. TLDR: The full route of DK64 is tasable now (now as in right now). On a scale from 1 - 10 the game's accuracy is at like a 6 for bizhawk (7 for my branch of mupen-rr) and my goal is to get that closer to an 8 before a TAS is started.
TAG
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This has tickled my fancy, so what type of errors did you fix? And how? It would be great to get a very technical explanation of these fixes
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
Joined: 7/12/2011
Posts: 142
Location: Indianapolis
TAG wrote:
This has tickled my fancy, so what type of errors did you fix? And how? It would be great to get a very technical explanation of these fixes
the problem with saving was "fixed" by just updating something in bizhawk's game db (the thing that sets the config for each game) the physics issues will be fixed by attempting to make the interrupts that happen during the game's loop simulate hardware-conditions. it's a complicated fix that doesn't have that great of a solution (hence me aiming for 8 instead of 10). http://datasheets.chipdb.org/MIPS/R4300i_datasheet.pdf (see: frequency) i'm not going to provide any more explanations so as not to derail the thread. if you have any specific questions for me you can ask via pm or in the bizhawk/n64 emu boards.
TAG
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Posts: 407
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Good to know ;$
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
Glitcher
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Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
Hey folks, I've been trying to reproduce the orange lag trick on emulator to access Angry Aztec early. After hours of testing, I've determined that it's simply not possible to do on PJ64 because it doesn't emulate lag properly, but the trick CAN be done on Bizhawk. However, since PJ64 is my main emulator, I want to ask if one of these two things is possible: 1 - Change PJ64's video settings to accurately emulate lag 2 - Convert Bizhawk's save files for PJ64 Ta muchly. EDIT: Never mind. I used a a glitch that was discovered last week to defeat Dogadon in Fungi Forest with DK. This means I can beat Fungi Forest at the start and access Creepy Castle early, skipping Angry Aztec entirely. Orange lag, be damned! :D
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Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
The route doesn't go to Forest or Aztec or even unlock any kongs. Myself and other DK players have been planning the TAS for months now. We're waiting on a new version of BizHawk that is being worked on that emulates, among other things, loading times correctly. The current route cannot be completed with the slightly longer load times currently present. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT5BwCjg1EU This isn't optimized at all, but it is a sample of what the TAS might look like.
TAG
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Location: In Oblivion
It will come soon and I will watch for sure
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
TAG
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 407
Location: In Oblivion
Glitcher wrote:
EDIT: Never mind. I used a a glitch that was discovered last week to defeat Dogadon in Fungi Forest with DK. This means I can beat Fungi Forest at the start and access Creepy Castle early, skipping Angry Aztec entirely. Orange lag, be damned! :D
wow there is even more proof Dogadonkey exists. does this mean I can change my name back to Oblivionwalker now?
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
TAG
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Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 407
Location: In Oblivion
hey all, i am trying to get sixty force to save DK64 as well, is there some sort of developers version around? i would like to know.
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
Joined: 3/1/2009
Posts: 64
I figured I should post this for RingRush. The impossible 10 minutes are now possimpible (cue the awesome music) Link to video
GamingAori
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Joined: 1/26/2014
Posts: 35
is this game tas able i mean no emulator can run it good :/ so casual is not really possible so tas isn't possible too?
I'm new and I'm german. My english isn't the best sry ^^
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Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
There is no emulator that can currently do everything needed to make what I consider an acceptable TAS of the game. I currently use a modified version of BizHawk made by Cronikeys for my YouTube channel, but I've been delaying working on a full game TAS until emulation some day improves. Here are features that I think an emulator needs to have: (1) TAS tools - Duh. Bizhawk has this. (2) Proper saving - The version of Bizhawk I have has this and maybe some of the newer main versions do too. Not all emulators do though, but this is absolutely essential to basically any route in this game. (3) Fixed graphical spiking - This doesn't have to be 100% fixed, but with the version of Bizhawk I use it can get really bad in certain areas ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLdZZn19uVw for example ). This isn't an absolutely essential fix, but it is extremely distracting sometimes, especially with Tiny. It invites the viewer to question the validity of the run and distracts the knowledgeable viewer from what is going on. If graphical spiking was just one or two frames every 30 seconds that would be acceptable, but in a lot of areas there are more spiked frames than unspiked frames. Apparently some emulators are better than Bizhawk in this regard, but I have't verified this myself. (4) Fixed random tree warping / telegrab - There is a glitch in the game where after a technique called tag barrel storage, if you grab a tree or climb a ledge you can teleport to another location. However, on emulator, sometimes this will happen randomly with no prompting. The version of Bizhawk I use seems much better about this than, say, project64, (especially with regard to random grab boosts) but there are still several places where I need to go out of my way to avoid mysterious teleports while climbing trees. It turns out this isn't important for any%, but it would be a nice fix for, say, a low optimization tool assisted demonstration (LOTAD) of 101%. This is supposedly related to graphical spiking. (5) Accurate lag emulation - Lag is SUPER IMPORTANT in DK64 and serves as the basis for how many tricks work. The emulator I use is pretty good, but not perfect about this. It is certainly good enough to do a TAS, although any improvements here would be welcome. A fun test of this is to watch the intro demo - if it desynchs and DK falls into the water, it is probably because lag isn't emulated correctly. (6) Proper photos - When the camera is used to capture a fairy, a photo will appear on screen for a few seconds to show what you just took a picture of. Some emulators this doesn't work on; the one I use it does. However, the photo stays on screen for too long before transitioning to the fairy cutscene. It looks weird, and it costs a few seconds each picture, and it would be really great to fix this. It isn't a dealbreaker though if this can't be fixed. (7) Better loading time emulation - Some areas like DK Isles or Frantic Factory take noticably longer to load on emulator than console, and may exhibit what I call a "double-clutch" load (you'll know what I'm talking about if you watch the load). For most games this can be dismissed as a "whatever" minor time loss, but this actually breaks the route for any% due to a universal timer trick called Intro Story Glitch. I really, really, really want better loading times (it doesn't have to be perfect, but something similar to console please or even a bit faster if need be) before starting on any any% run.
Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334
RingRush wrote:
(3) Fixed graphical spiking - This doesn't have to be 100% fixed, but with the version of Bizhawk I use it can get really bad in certain areas ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLdZZn19uVw for example ). This isn't an absolutely essential fix, but it is extremely distracting sometimes, especially with Tiny. It invites the viewer to question the validity of the run and distracts the knowledgeable viewer from what is going on. If graphical spiking was just one or two frames every 30 seconds that would be acceptable, but in a lot of areas there are more spiked frames than unspiked frames. Apparently some emulators are better than Bizhawk in this regard, but I have't verified this myself.
I always thought this was a videoplugin problem, isn't it?
Nis
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Joined: 6/6/2014
Posts: 19
the 101% "lotad" was just posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nIfy8LO054 It's bascially a TAS that won't pass submission checks.[/video]
Youtube: 4232nis *SM64 TASer
Isotarge
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Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
Phallosvogel wrote:
RingRush wrote:
(3) Fixed graphical spiking - This doesn't have to be 100% fixed, but with the version of Bizhawk I use it can get really bad in certain areas ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLdZZn19uVw for example ). This isn't an absolutely essential fix, but it is extremely distracting sometimes, especially with Tiny. It invites the viewer to question the validity of the run and distracts the knowledgeable viewer from what is going on. If graphical spiking was just one or two frames every 30 seconds that would be acceptable, but in a lot of areas there are more spiked frames than unspiked frames. Apparently some emulators are better than Bizhawk in this regard, but I have't verified this myself.
I always thought this was a videoplugin problem, isn't it?
"Graphical Spiking" or more accurately "Bone Displacement" is not a problem with current video plugins but rather a core timing issue. You can read more about it here I have reported the issue to both the Mupen64plus and Project64 development teams
TAG
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thanks issac for the bone displacement faq. i understand everything now. at least i don't have to worry about it since its fixed in my emulator without any bad side effects.
I’m sorry. Really I am... I am so sorry for what I did. Forgive me.
Isotarge
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As some of you may be aware, I have discovered a workaround for the long standing bone displacement issue plaguing high level N64 emulators running DK64. This is an improvement over my previous workaround (used in the 101% LOTAD) as it retains audio emulation. I have created a custom build of BizHawk in which the workaround is automatically enabled when emulating any version of the game. Included with this build is a copy of the latest version of my glitch hunting and TASing Lua script framework, ScriptHawk, and the most accurate emulation settings are selected by default for DK64. I would appreciate the community testing this build, checking for side-effects caused by the workaround. If the feedback is positive I will attempt to get the workaround integrated in to BizHawk for the next release. Here is a link to download the build https://mega.nz/#!3IYVlCwb!0ptpQcJB0Mf0qEYamzdM1_W-m0z7dSOJy1vCzG7yV-w and you can read more about my research here https://docs.google.com/document/d/15XNghhrc-thXJpbKzWWuHXl-NXdzcaDLEf7poFVruh8/edit
Isotarge
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Isotarge wrote:
If the feedback is positive I will attempt to get the workaround integrated in to BizHawk for the next release.
Due to universally positive feedback from the DK64 RTA and TAS community testing the build I have integrated the workaround in to BizHawk as of version 1.11.8. Thanks a lot to the testers that helped out. Enjoy!
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Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
Guess I should probably post this stuff here, since it involves DK64 and TASing. Been working on A button challenge stuff off and on since 2014 and finally started uploading stuff these last few months. And honestly some of the strategies are super cool. Channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7NpaX5YZ5pyXiibLU2E7fQ/ Here are some sample videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6KBsuppwaI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9NYxIQUvU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_72SBL0h3fE Videos on this channel are supposed to build successively off each other, so there are probably a lot of references to tricks you might not understand. Hopefully this pastebin helps a little: https://pastebin.com/u4VYcB16 Edit: Oh, looks like the any% TAS was never even posted here. Yeah that's a thing from a year ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1ydz98KtNw
Eagerestwolf
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Joined: 7/17/2018
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Location: United States of America
Now that RingRush has completed 2 any% TAS's for DK64, has anyone considered 101? I'm asking because if not, I'd like to take up the reigns and attempt to do it. DK64 glitches and routing for 101 are extensively documented. For the time being, I think following the standard speed run route will probably be the best option, just with that TAS-only flair. I don't know of any glitches that would really help 101, ICG takes too long to set up to be worth it since I would have to collect everything anyway. Here is a tentative route I'm considering:
    - Do the training grounds somewhat as intended, then phase angle clip out
      - I think in this situation, it would make the most sense to phase angle clip out and get Simian Slam later to save time
    - Banana Fairy Island next to get the camera and shockwave - Creepy Castle next, this serves a few purposes:
      - Using a phase angle clip in Troff and Scoff room, I can clip into the loading zone for King Kut Out fight and unlock all Kongs - Since Creepy Castle is the last level of the game, Cranky, Candy, and Funky should have all of the end game upgrades - This will enable me to do the levels in whatever order is fastest, regardless of moves - This solution does have a downside though: I have to grind rainbow coins before going there
    - Then basically figure out the fastest or most efficient routing, with added TAS flair of course
Bloopiero
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There have been several 101% LOTADs actually, with the most recent being, I'm pretty sure, this one. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/497894869
Whale eat again
Eagerestwolf
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Bloopiero wrote:
There have been several 101% LOTADs actually, with the most recent being, I'm pretty sure, this one. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/497894869
Yeah, I knew a bunch of LOTAD's had been made, but I was thinking of making a full on TAS by tasvideos rules.
P.JBoy
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I fully support the prospect of anyone TASing 101% DK64
theballaam96
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Eagerestwolf wrote:
Bloopiero wrote:
There have been several 101% LOTADs actually, with the most recent being, I'm pretty sure, this one. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/497894869
Yeah, I knew a bunch of LOTAD's had been made, but I was thinking of making a full on TAS by tasvideos rules.
I'm glad that you are interested in the world of TASing Donkey Kong 64. As someone who made the LOTAD Blooperio linked, it's good to see new people looking into full-game TASing outside of myself and RingRush. However, for 101%, I feel like I should give you the warning that if you want to go for it, it's a HUGE task for a few reasons: - The run would be 4 hours long, where TASing DK64 usually is 1 year ot TASing for 60-90m of gameplay (if you go for TAS quality). Obviously this means a huge time investment, but people do make long TASes and spend years on them. However, those games don't suffer from the biggest problem DK64 has. DK64 tends to have huge game breaking discoveries that happen every year or two: - 2012: Lag clipping - 2014: Tag Barrel Storage - 2015: Telegrabbing, other tag barrel related stuff, Dogadonequick - 2017: Phasewalking, Phasefalling, Spawn Snagging, Orangstand TBS Noclip - 2019: Crash Climb These are just the big discoveries that either save minutes or are widely applicable that would affect routing. There are lots of things that get discovered semi-frequently too. The longer your run, the bigger the risk of some-to-most of your run falling victim to this. This is some of the reason why 101% has only been LOTAD'd at this point in time (People don't tend to have 2 years minimum to dedicate to one TAS when there is a large risk of being "glitch-invalidated". 7 months to make a 101% LOTAD (The length of time it took to make the 2019 LOTAD) gets relatively close to TAS-level execution for lower risk and more time to do other things). - In terms of TASVideos rules, you're running into the problem of spawn snagging and optimal TBS movement. I'm working on a "No Levels Early" (NLE) TAS at this point in time and if you want it to be remotely optimal, there are a tonne of sections which you will have to do under locked cam. Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKTxvVsfxq0&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Ballaam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9IKUBaTJHk&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Ballaam These add up and generally people prefer to see what is going on, where you are going etc. For NLE, there's going to be at least 10 sections like this of varying length. For 101%, given how much spawn snagging helps with the slow GBs, you're talking at least 25 (Factory has 5 just off the top of my head). ROUTE In terms of route, whilst there have been a few new tricks since the 2019 101% LOTAD, it won't be massively dissimilar route wise. The whole "LOTAD" thing with the 2019 LOTAD is just that the execution isn't 100% in-line with TAS expectations and also that there are a few hacks used for viewer watchability (note that whilst hacks are used, the sequence of events are exactly what it would be if the hack weren't used). If you are serious about wanting to TAS 101%, you can DM me on discord @ theballaam96#6738 and I will help you get started with the basics. DK64 TASers don't tend to check TASVideos forums much, so any WIPs or questions won't be answered until several days later if you decide to post in here.
theballaam96
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101% TAS WIPs Start - Enter Aztec 1: https://youtu.be/1ZdjCLoFe-Y Aztec 1: https://youtu.be/FXqkua8SA8g The route does exhibit a fair resemblance to the 2019 LOTAD (4:11) route, but will have some ik-level rerouting and Owl Race Skip in it (which affects the level order and does do some interesting stuff to route this in) https://youtu.be/YiGA7NyNQoQ Owl Race Skip saves about 1m, some level rerouted should save another minute. The obvious goal is for the optimisation to bring the TAS down to sub 4. Given that the 2019 LOTAD doesn't use angle scripts to optimise movement direction, and some minor movement techniques like roll wiggling and ostand jumping weren't known either for the majority of development if the 2019 lotad or at all, I remain hopeful
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