Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
Yeah, I knew about Hanzou's run, which I compared my test run to.
What speaks against a 1-player run would be that the current published 2-player run obsoleted the 1-player cathegory. But on the other hand those runs are almost 5 years old and people might look at it differently these days.
Maybe I'll go for TASing both runs - time will tell...
Nothing to add except that I loved/hated this game as a kid and would love to see it get properly thrashed.
Edit: The rom that's used for the test run is actually Snake Rattle N Roll (U) [b2]
I don't want to create another thread, so I comment here.
I'm planning to do a 1P Warp version. There's already a published (and obsoloted because of wrong ROM used) version, so I'm gonna redo it with using Aglar's tricks and implementing more improvements.
Some things I observed:
Stage 1 - you can avoid the 2 lag frames and be faster by 2 frames by letting go of R (saves 4 frames)
Stage 8 - you can manipulate both which "fish towers" should breed and when and where they should swim. My experimentations shows that even if I spawn them as fast as possible (spawning the blue and yellow on right "fish tower" on 1st and 2nd frame) won't save time in eating the yellow fish. This means that the 1st moment I can eat the yellow fish is 126 frames. While, eating the blue one is faster by 10 or more frames. So this route will be changed too.
edit (forgot to write down): The time they spawn depends on previous inputs that changes the RNG (more than 100 times within a frame). On different values, different spawn will start. For example if 0x0012 is equal with 9F or A0, the right ones will breed out instantly.
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Nice to see some interest in the game! I'd rather see an improvement of my warpless run or the 2-player warpless run though. Judging from this submission thread, of the run that obsoleted the warped category, it was obsoleted partially because it was highly improvable but also since they didn't think it was different enough from the warpless and thus wasn't needed - and I pretty much agree with this.
I'd most of all like to see an improved version of the 2-player warpless run, since the current one have much room for improvement (especially level 8). The lag management will be very tedious tough which was mostly why I didn't do that run.
Joined: 4/17/2010
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Aglar wrote:
I'd most of all like to see an improved version of the 2-player warpless run, since the current one have much room for improvement (especially level 8). The lag management will be very tedious tough which was mostly why I didn't do that run.
Can you please write down these improvements? I've never played that game, but it looks VERY promising in terms of strategy testing. You even mentioned you can do a quick 2P run in a few days. Also, your submission text doesn't contain any useful info on tricks.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
feos wrote:
Aglar wrote:
I'd most of all like to see an improved version of the 2-player warpless run, since the current one have much room for improvement (especially level 8). The lag management will be very tedious tough which was mostly why I didn't do that run.
Can you please write down these improvements? I've never played that game, but it looks VERY promising in terms of strategy testing. You even mentioned you can do a quick 2P run in a few days. Also, your submission text doesn't contain any useful info on tricks.
In terms of improved strategies and tricks that I've already confirmed - there's a shortcut in the beginning of level 4 (which is used in the 1-player run), and in level 8 you can start with two extra food pieces at the beginning of pool 2,3 and 4 by eating a final one with each snake just before exiting each pool. Then I'm sure that you can gain lots of time by better precision and and minor strategy changes in the eating process.
That submission text was rather lousy, yeah. I can update the submission text later with more stuff as I quite easily keep track of things I've done in TASes, I could even add the text to a "Snake rattle 'n roll" game resource page if an editor first creates it.
I also must say that after such a long time staying away from this game, I'm sort of interesting in trying it again. The 2-player run would surely be a lot easier to make with TAS-edit than the old way I used for testing it before. It'll still most likely be a very advanced, sometimes tedious, project and very mentally challenging to do by yourself so would you be interested in a co-operation?
Joined: 4/17/2010
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Sure, I'm just afraid to compete with you in anything ha-ha. Especially after you check this one out. Ask me about any functionality as it has been developed for almost a year with me testing literally every new feature.
http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/SnakeRattleNRoll.html
PS: I'm a very slow worker to co-author with, you easily can end up finishing the whole thing, when I can be only at the first level :D
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'm a bit busy nowadays doing some MCP exams, however I would like to cooperate (with someone) mostly because I find funny manipulating the "fish breed towers" at stage 8. I'm pretty sure it could improve hundreds of frames.
I will try to do a test-run with TASedit (2 players of course) on this week after I checked that is there any difference between bizhawk and fceux latest on this game (many other games had interesting differences).
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Considering that I know nothing about the game, just wanted to make your guys info public, I'm letting you two to cooperate, just post the finds here, or add to the Resources page.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I'm a bit busy nowadays doing some MCP exams, however I would like to cooperate (with someone) mostly because I find funny manipulating the "fish breed towers" at stage 8. I'm pretty sure it could improve hundreds of frames.
I will try to do a test-run with TASedit (2 players of course) on this week after I checked that is there any difference between bizhawk and fceux latest on this game (many other games had interesting differences).
Ok, I just let you make the testrun, and then we can possibly start making a submitable run.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'm still trying to further improve the first level. Some infos:
- skipping water sections reduces lag frames --- needs route changing which makes your snakes being "slower"
- skipping enemies reduces lag frames --- makes route changing harder / slower
- the fastest (impossible) warp with 0 lag frame is the 1324th frame.
Calculation: 1324 + lag frames = fastest possible warp (since you have to wait the rocket).
I will update when I have much more improvement (I have 1 frame faster than earlier posted WIP)
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Why don't you do the GENESIS version? Wouldn't it have better graphics?
Well, actually, I'm a bit biased. I never knew about the NES version until a few years ago when I saw nitsuja's TAS, but I played the Genesis version as a kid alot.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Why don't you do the GENESIS version? Wouldn't it have better graphics?
Well, actually, I'm a bit biased. I never knew about the NES version until a few years ago when I saw nitsuja's TAS, but I played the Genesis version as a kid alot.
Looks like it has annoying cutscenes (end of the video)
Link to video
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Weird... I was able to get fewer points... which means I'm improving really good =)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1921761920/MESHUGGAH_SRNR_L1_2084.fm2
Comparison with nitsuja's published TAS level 1
L1 lag frames: 122 > 92 (-30)
Start of level 2: 2115 > 2084 (-31)
[I've got -1 lag frame because fewer points at the end of L1]
edit: after numerous tryings, I'm moving to the next level
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MESHUGGAH, do you use text Notes that can be added to Markers? If I didn't mention, Markers are added by doubleclick on a framenumber. For co-op tases Notes are extremely useful.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Yeah I accidently found it, however I use notepad and sticky notes since I mostly write not frame-dependent things like comparing with nitsuja's run and other ideas/tricks. I use the markers only to see how much I improve lag or positions.
Currently I'm 97 frames ahead at the end of L2 for the 1st try, I think I shave off 30-40 frames by doing a triple jump at the end of L2. That mushroom in front of the exit is ridiculous since I have to avoid killing it.
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So then I suppose this is not the testrun but the intended final one? Judging from the lag management you're performing it doesn't sound extremelly exiting to me though so I guess it'd be ok if you did this run by yourself.
The rerecord count also suggests that it's quite more than a testrun. What counts as a rerecord in TASEdit anyway? It's of good quality too, matching my 1-player run in the areas that are comparable.
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If you emulated a segment, then changing the input you cut the greenzone, it counts as one rerecord. Loading a branch is also one. You can just enable rerecord count display (M button) and check.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So then I suppose this is not the testrun but the intended final one? Judging from the lag management you're performing it doesn't sound extremelly exiting to me though so I guess it'd be ok if you did this run by yourself.
The rerecord count also suggests that it's quite more than a testrun. What counts as a rerecord in TASEdit anyway? It's of good quality too, matching my 1-player run in the areas that are comparable.
Well in the beginning I was just testing but when I got many improvements I tried it to TAS.
I don't understand your second sentence. You mean I do it in a way that you didn't like?
Also notice that every part of the gameplay can be switched if you remanipulate the RNG by pressing buttons on P1 (I use mostly an additional S). However L3 and L8 is an RNG madness.
edit: my all rerecord run for this tas is more than 50000 (for the last posted) but I always TAS in a different project (.fm3)
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MESHUGGAH:
Did you find out the exact RNG work here? Sounds like it's similar to Toads. Switches in time by some value and input advances it even further. I guess there are at least 2 addresses containing the RNG that rules enemies spawn and behaviour and some other things.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I don't understand your second sentence. You mean I do it in a way that you didn't like?
Nah, just that I'm not that interested in making TASes which require much lag management. Especially if you actually need to focus more on the lag itself than the (non-lag) gameplay. In the 1-player run, lag occured mostly due to screen scrolling, I suppose it's similar with 2 players.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Also notice that every part of the gameplay can be switched if you remanipulate the RNG by pressing buttons on P1 (I use mostly an additional S). However L3 and L8 is an RNG madness.
Yeah, I mostly used the select button too. So player 2 doesn't change the RNG at all? If you can trace down exactly how the RNG works for Nibbly-Pibbly drops it'll surely be to your advantage (including both what color it'll have and where it'll go).
