Topic by Truncated

Posted: 2/3/2005 12:51 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

Does it really take that much long to pick up the samurai in E3? Even though he can break the ice afterwards and run trough the tank instead of jumping three extra times? Weird. Too bad about the airjump. :/ It looked close when I tried, I hoped holding run at the same time would fix it. I did some testing on Maniaxe vs. Samurai. Usually, the samurai can attack every 13 frames, and Maniaxe every 18 frames. With jump-cancel bug, both can attack every 5 frames (see below*), but I cannot find any good place to do that in the Shiskaboss level. Maniaxe might be able to do some variation of this bug (jumping low) giving him somewhere between 5 and 18 frames for every attack. *The fastest way to do the attack bug with samurai is attack 1 frame, jump 1 frame, nothing 3 frames. I tested this on Bagel Bros, man, I think I easily could take it down another second on that level by doing it the proper way. I really feel like starting a new version now. :/ Anyway, I don't know about Shiskaboss right now. I also hope Maniaxe could get an appearance though. After that the planning is pretty easy for a few levels. Whoever you had at SB for WW1, pick Berzerker in E (you have to), Berzerker for WW2, Samurai for DM1, keep him for TCB and E (I hope that's possible, don't remember those levels right now), open the shortcut in DM2 with samurai, pick up Cyclone, use him for KI, WG and HB. Cyclone saves about a minute in HB, but you don't get a SkyCutter for the next few levels. Probably Cyclone is the way to go.

Posted: 2/3/2005 5:28 PM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

I think picking up Berzerker in HotW2 would be faster than picking up the samurai in E3... But here's a quick study of what the affected levels look like: HotW2: Slower E3: Faster WC: Faster SS: Slower (probably by a lot) CC1: Faster (maybe, depends on how useful Cyclone is) But unless Sinister Sewers turns out to be like HotW2 (which I doubt), Cyclone is too important to lose before then.

Posted: 2/3/2005 8:26 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

Yes, I tested, the samurai is a lot slower in E3. Keep in mind that he's a bit out of the way, the animation upon grabbing him takes awhile, and after using the shortcut he has to jump onto the teleporter (can't just land on it). Wait a second...in the level after Hoverboard Beach, don't you have to switch to Iron Knight at the end anyway? That would definitely make that decision easy...shortcut all the way. And as for Devil's Marsh II, there's another samurai shortcut near the end that takes you straight to the flag. So it would be faster to skip that one and grab Cyclone, than to do what nifboy did in his movie, you're saying? -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/3/2005 10:46 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

...Wow. HotW2 is AWESOME now. I won't spoil anything, check it out. The movie's up through Windy City, so any nitpicking there would be appreciated as well. It's a pretty simple level, but who knows... Thanks once again, Josh.

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/4/2005 12:04 AM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

Josh the FunkDOC wrote:

Wait a second...in the level after Hoverboard Beach, don't you have to switch to Iron Knight at the end anyway? That would definitely make that decision easy...shortcut all the way. And as for Devil's Marsh II, there's another samurai shortcut near the end that takes you straight to the flag. So it would be faster to skip that one and grab Cyclone, than to do what nifboy did in his movie, you're saying? -Josh

Yeah, you switch to the Iron Knight to end Pyramids of Peril. On a side note, I found a way to get pushed outside the right side of the screen by switching from Micromax there (sadly, I can't fall past the P blocks). You need the samurai at the very beginning of DM1, so you'll almost certainly have it when you hit DM2, and there it's simply a matter of hitting an ice block, running over to grab Cyclone, and then falling down the hole you just made.

Posted: 2/5/2005 5:10 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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O_O How the heck did you pass trough that gap in HotW2 keeping all your speed... not hitting neither top nor bottom, none the less. You'll have to write a chapter on how the flying works for the Tricks page later to be sure. The two next levels also look good. Didn't see anything you could change. The next level Sinister Sewers will probably judge if Cyclone is worth keeping all the way there or if you should switch earlier. Nifboy has already explained what I meant about DM2, so I won't go into that. Another thought I had: should this run be published, subtitles for the level names would be nice, and you could throw in a note or two about what's happening too. I could code them if that's wanted.

Posted: 2/5/2005 7:07 PM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

Subtitles for level names = Yes please. I'm not sure what else would absolutely need subtitles, though.

Posted: 2/5/2005 8:48 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

Alright, thanks for the comments, guys! I got completely lucky in HotW2...just happened to be at the right distance and right angle. Sheer trial and error is how one would figure this sort of thing out. And yes, subtitles for level names would be a definite must, especially considering that there are teleporters that take you to another part of the same level. So, Sinister Sewers is done and uploaded. It wasn't as crazy as I thought it would be, but it's still evident that it would be a lot slower without Cyclone. Hmm... *shrug* EDIT: A better version has just been uploaded, about 40 frames faster. This time I manipulate luck to bounce on a tornado guy. The path I have to use is weird, but it seems it can't be improved; the enemy has 4 specific flight patterns, and the one you see is the only one that allows me to bounce on him. -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/6/2005 2:46 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

I just downloaded the movie. Man, that path is weird... I'm trying to bounce on the fireball in the beginning of the level. So far no luck, but I'm veeery close. Did you try that? I had no idea you could kill the tornado guys by bumping into them from the side with the cyclone. Or maybe I did and forgot it. I'll be back when I succeed (or give up) with the fireball. --- EDIT: I give up. It seems that by the time you reach the fireball, it has too high downward velocity to land on. Changing the last C-press just one frame is the difference between missing it completely and taking damage. So I see no way to get it working. Carry on.

Posted: 2/7/2005 10:41 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

Thanks a lot for the effort. Actually, bumping into the tornado guy only works at a certain height, and also only seems to work when you're flying. Crystal Crags I is up. Rather annoying level, and I'm not so sure this will be the final version...I may be able to improve the beginning (land sooner), and maybe fit into that little passage while maintaining speed (without Cyclone this may be impossible, I'm not sure). -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/9/2005 8:15 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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Continuing from our ICQ convesation about the video up to and including Dragon Spike (downloadable at the usual place for anyone interested): In CC1 as you said you hit the corner when entering a tunnel at 6:08 and lose your speed. Some other two-block gaps have been entered without losing speed, for example in BLW2, so I would try some more. In elsewhere I played around a bit and I'm positive you can touch the wall before bouncing on the fileball. I landed on 33:45, your video landed on 33:50. It's possible there's another 2-3 frames to get if you make the jump just the right height. In DS at 7:20 you thouroughly smash the blocks with a new technique (wow!). This will come in handy in many places, in the short version too when that's updated. In CC2 there is a very similar configuration of blocks at 6:46, but you destroy those a lot slower. How come? Just after that there's a dragon below you which you don't stomp. Did you test if cutting the corner with a jump and maybe pressing backwards a few frames to get him payed off? Instead of jumping into the hole in the iron stair, could it be faster to jump-headbutt one of the iron blocks? (This might give you trouble at the end of the level, though.) In DS at 7:06 there's a misjump from the slope which sends you backwards. I think it would be better to make a short jump and land next to the rubber block and make a big jump from the ground rather than bouncing 4 times on the rubber block. At 7:14 and forward, could it pay off to start with a small jump after the cannon blocks disappear instead of running? I'm not sure how the hitbox works with the teleporter, but it might be worth testing to duck just before you reach it and see if the edges of a crouching character makes it activate faster. The same thing would apply in CC1. You end the movie with two hitpoints left. I suggest losing one more if you know anywhere beneficial (jumping on the crystal in CC2 maybe?), pick up the Samurai at the start of Pinnacle, take two points of damage before the forced switch, and refill him there. There is some kind of secret hidden in the wall to the right where you start, you can see it from the other side. I don't know if there's an entrypoint somewhere from the left side or if it's a fake. Turning off layers would be nice, but I don't think Gens supports it. If there is one you could keep berzerker instead. Have to go now. This will probably keep you busy for a while though. :)

Posted: 2/9/2005 11:36 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

AAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH Yep, turns out that jumping at cannon blocks saves you some time over just walking. And what's more, this saves 3 frames all the way back in Highwater Pass I! Can't believe I didn't figure this out before... Additionally, there's a better way of running and falling down ledges than what I was doing before, and this could save time in USM3. I think I'm going to redo all this yet again, gentlemen, as I am truly aiming for this to be as close to perfect as possible. The only part that worries me is that crazy flight in HotW2...I got lucky with that the first time, and I hope I can duplicate it... -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/10/2005 1:59 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

Come on now. Don't redo all of these 10 levels for 3 frames. If you really, really have to, learn to hexedit in the levels you've already done instead of redoing them again. That'll save you your sanity and a lot of work. Ask Viper, he seems to have mastered it pretty well. What is the better way to fall off ledges that you found? What about the other things I commented on, did you check up on them? >fileball Did I write that? :/ I'm turning japanese, damnit.

Posted: 2/10/2005 2:58 AM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

See, when falling off, I always aimed to fall at the earliest possible time, even when that would result in a wider backwards arc. If you just aim to reduce that arc, and fall later, it saves time. Also, I think the teleporter thing you mentioned works, and that would help all the way back in the first Elsewhere... I dunno, I wish I could hexedit but it never gives me any luck. This game is kinda random when it comes to movements; that is, improving an area forces you to make slightly different inputs in some other areas. This was what caused my time loss in HotW1, as flying seems to be especially susceptible to this. I'm at a loss as to what to do now. The mistakes are minor time-wise, but they would stand out since I would use these techniques later on. Hmm... -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/13/2005 10:36 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

Just to let you guys know, I'm taking a break from this to work on something far simpler: Improving Vice. With the magic of frame advance, I may be able to get that baby under 13 minutes after all... -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/14/2005 1:30 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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Aww... that's too bad. Good luck with Vice. I'll be waiting for this one. Let me know if you need any help with hex editing the movies, if that's what's putting you off.

Posted: 9/23/2005 5:55 AM

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nifboy

Former player

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

A fellow by the name of Tim Dittmer emailed me with an undiscovered teleporter: A hidden teleporter in Isle of the Lion King to the elsewhere outside Pyramids of Peril. You need Cyclone or a really lucky enemy boost to get to it, but that's never stopped us before. Unfortunately, taking it means you miss the teleporter in Hoverboard Beach, but since you don't have to go through Bloody Swamp I consider it a bonus for "normal" speedrunning. Updated map: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/nifboy/kidchameleon.png

Posted: 9/23/2005 8:40 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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O_O I have to go back and check this level, but unless I have a memory blank I had no idea about this warp. Wow. Too bad it doesn't go to hoverboard beach, or we would have a new contender for shortest path. The picture on KidChameleonMap is hotlinked, so it was updated automatically.

Posted: 9/23/2005 1:47 PM

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nifboy

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Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375

Groovy. Good thing I kept the same filename. Oh, and just so you don't have to go looking for it:

The guy who emailed me told me nobody else in the world seemed to know about it either. Woot.

Posted: 9/28/2005 7:09 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
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Something is very wrong here. I checked and that teleporter is NOT there in my ROM (which I don't know the exact version of because it's labled badly). Does it depend on version? If so are there more of these differences? I emailed you pictures what it looks like to me in that spot.

Posted: 9/28/2005 9:43 AM

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Highness

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Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden

Truncated - Doesn't it work to check your room with GoodGen?

Posted: 9/28/2005 10:14 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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It probably does, but I didn't have it handy at the time. Maybe I should just get a load of different roms to check this.

Posted: 9/28/2005 3:26 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
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Okay, nifboy emailed me another picture and now I understand what he meant by hidden. It's one of those "bump into me from down under to reveal me" teleporters. That probably explains it. I'll check again. Someone should hack the ROM to find all of those. I guess the game is not popular enough to warrant that. I know of one more, but it doesn't lead anywhere fancy.

Posted: 9/28/2005 5:37 PM

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Highness

Player (70)

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden

That hack should be really easy right? Search for the value before you bump into the object. Then bump into the object to reveal it and search again. Then I presume that you will get the code that changes. After that you could just search for all those right? It could be harder to see what levels it would be though. But perhaps you could make a hacked rom with all those bumped items shown without having to bump into them? Then just print screen the entire game and compare to a print screened non hacked game. :D

Posted: 9/28/2005 5:46 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

I'm not into hacking, but as I understand it that would only reveal which internal memory values change when a teleporter is revealed. It wouldn't reflect where (or how) in the ROM the secret teleporters are stored. If you could hack a ROM to show all the hidden teleporters, that means you understand the format for the levels and where the teleporters are located, and the problem is solved there already.