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Posted: 4/11/2006 7:45 PM
Post subject: Lemmings
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
I'm thinking of doing this run, but was wondering something, should I do a run where I get the exact amount of Lemmings is necessary or getting as many in as possible? Edit: I've decided to do a minimum amount of lemmings. This is the first three levels, although i think the third can be optimised a bit more. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/994/AdmiralJonB%20Lemmings%20v2.smv Any comment/advice would be appreciated.
Posted: 4/12/2006 3:16 AM
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georgexi
Player (80)
Joined: 7/22/2004
Posts: 63
Location: USA
i tried to watch your video but it desynced for me. i have US version 1.1 (1049088 bytes) if you look at the Lemmings thread in the NES forum, someone else already started a SNES Lemmings run. i havent seen any updates in a few months so i'm assuming it's dead. it was entertaining to watch though so you should check it out to get some ideas. you need US version 1.1 to watch it though
Posted: 4/12/2006 6:13 AM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
Ooops, sorry I forgot to say it was with version 1.0 (U).
Posted: 4/12/2006 5:12 PM
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hopper
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada
Acmlm did a really excellent WIP of the first 9 levels using Lemmings (V1.1) (U) [!].smc, which ended up in the NES forum at http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2725
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Posted: 10/30/2006 7:52 AM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
no action on this thread for a while, is the run canned? I made my own version of the first couple of levels, but the precision was slightly off what I saw here. I doubt that I have the experiance, skills or determination to do a run like this, but the overall appeariance of the run is really nice. A run of this game has the potential to be out of this world, I hope one of the tas veterans takes over, and blows our minds!
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 10/30/2006 9:58 AM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
I'm at university at the moment, so when i get bored i'll start on this again (left all my emulator stuff on my home computer). I honestly don't know how long it will be though.
Posted: 10/30/2006 8:56 PM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Glad to hear someone has plans to do it at least, though this run will likely take a lot of time and energy to complete.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 10/31/2006 1:24 AM
Post subject: 115
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Acmlm
Active player (478)
Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada
I actually got to Fun 13, back in August last year, then I think I stopped there because the next few levels were going to be long and maybe not as interesting ... A full run would be pretty nice to see, but there's 125 levels (4 sets of 30 + "Sunsoft" set of 5) and quite a few are only harder versions of previous levels, so it'd last about 2 hours ... then you'd also have to find ways to make it entertaining all the way through, mostly during waiting periods, like how I did music and messed around with spare lemmings (without wasting time).
Posted: 10/31/2006 1:53 PM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
As much as I'd like to do all the messing around, it would add quite a lot of time to figure out different ways of entertaining and imo would delay the run a lot more (and make it a lot more boring to me). I'd do some things on some levels maybe, but I think it would get tedious to do it on every level. What do you guys think? I'm thinking of starting on this when I get back from my programming practical in about an hour or so.
Posted: 11/1/2006 6:53 AM
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Grizzly
Joined: 9/20/2006
Posts: 8
Location: Germany
I'd like a minimal run more than what is done in Acmlm's run. The clicking, bombing and staircase building everywhere where it's not needed got a bit on my nerves - especially when it is used in 125 levels. So the minimal needed clicks would look much cooler because it would look more relaxed than when you are doing things the whole time. Locking the playfield on the first lemming (centering on him) while he's walking towards the exit might be better for the time between the needed actions. At least in my personal opinion.
Posted: 11/1/2006 4:01 PM
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Heisanevilgenius
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708
Funny TAS of 2009 Innovative TAS of 2009
I attempted a run of Lemmings way back and I found a trick that Acclm apparently didn't. In the second level, there's an unneeded delay when you give a lemming an umbrella as they halt in midair. If you hover over the lemming with the umbrella selected and click at the last possible frame, they simply land and continue walking with no drop delay.
Posted: 11/2/2006 12:21 AM
Post subject: 116
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Acmlm
Active player (478)
Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada
That's what I did too, I gave it right before the first one touched the floor (and let the rest die), and did the same for level 10 ... But I did do a few minor mistakes as well: - No fast cursor movement until level 10 - I kept too many lemmings on screen a few times (causing lag) or set the drop rate to 99 too soon, like on level 11 and 12 As for messing around, while I did overdo it a few times (mostly level 4), it's also not going to be possible for most of the later levels when they won't give so many spares to waste (or even any), so it won't be like this all the way through. I wouldn't play the same songs over and over either (it's loud too), but at least it passes time when there's nothing to do for a long time (like level 13 where I stopped) ...
Posted: 11/2/2006 4:34 AM
Post subject: Re: 116
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Heisanevilgenius
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708
Funny TAS of 2009 Innovative TAS of 2009
Acmlm wrote:
That's what I did too, I gave it right before the first one touched the floor (and let the rest die), and did the same for level 10 ...
Oh, sorry. I didn't click the video. I thought it was a different one that was linked to in another thread, which was just the first three levels. Well, I guess I can pretty much scrap my old Lemmings project. Every idea I had that I thought was original was already taken. (I did the music thing too but not as well.)
Posted: 11/2/2006 9:59 PM
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captainobvious
Joined: 7/1/2005
Posts: 56
Location: Central Pennsylvania, USA
Problem: 125 levels Solutions: Only do the hardest set. Make seperate movies for each set. Splice them together into a mega-movie.
That's what she said!
Posted: 11/2/2006 11:47 PM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
Well, compared to my previous run, I saved about 500 frames just on the first level. It's slow to dig. Once I do some more levels, I'll upload. I'll probably have the second done in a few minutes. Might upload then to see what you guys think and whether it can be improved. Edit: Ok, 500 was overestimating a bit. By the start of the third level I've save 347 frames. I've got a few things which, if others could test out for me would be great, otherwise i'll have to do it myself. After doing some calculations, it seems that the times it takes to go through the "inter-level" stage seems to be different in my previous run (not put on web) and what I've done now. And also I seem to have mysteriously gained 2 frames in Level 2. Here are my calculations: Level 1 New Start: 1029 Old Start 1029 New End: 2507 Old End 2858 Total New: 1478 Old: 1829 Difference = 351 Time Inbetween New: 543 Old: 539 Level 2 New Start: 3050 Old Start: 3397 New End: 4296 Old End: 4645 Total New: 1246 Old: 1248 Difference = 2 Time Inbetween New: 577 Old: 575 Level 3 New Start: 4873 Old Start: 5220 I calculated these by the first frame the screen shows graphics of the actual level, and the fram i press Select + Start to end the level. I know, could be better formatted. I have yet to test about level 2, but the only difference i had was that in the new version I scrolled to only view the one lemming i saved walking to the exit. I would appreciate it if people could test out a few things for saving time:
    How many lemmings on screen until lagging starts. Whether animations such as digging causes some lagging. Whether dying animations lag the game up. What affects loading time.
Ok, that last one was probably a bit too much to ask for. I'll do this stuff myself if i have the time, but it would make things quicker for sure if someone would be willing to help. Thanks
Posted: 11/3/2006 12:37 AM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I just spotted this thread again. Anyway, I can't help you unfortunately but I really hope you keep going! A Lemmings TAS would be so awesome! I played it years ago and it's fun and hard as I remember it. Well, good luck with it!
/Walker Boh
Posted: 11/3/2006 1:02 AM
Post subject: 117
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Acmlm
Active player (478)
Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada
Comparing the times with my run: 1029 - 1027 --> +2 2507 - 2502 --> +5 3050 - 3049 --> +1 4296 - 4296 --> ±0 4873 - 4872 --> +1 The loading time does seem to vary, while everything was actually very close so far. I think it starts lagging after about 50 lemmings, and I know explosions can cause lag too, but I don't think simple animations would ...
Posted: 11/3/2006 6:21 AM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
I have been playing around with this game a lot lately, and I made a run for the first 10 or so levels. I am interested in compairing it to what the adminal here has done, but I dont know a not-so-overly annoying way of compairing them. What I want to know is, are those frame numbers the start of the fade in? or when the fade in is complete? I dont really know how to compair.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 11/3/2006 7:38 AM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
Twelvepack: It's the start of the fade-in. What I want to know is how Acmlm had those frames better than mine. Acmlm: Do you have a link at all so i can compare them? If you had it uploaded somewhere before, I probably have it somewhere but it'll be in this mess of an "Emulators" folder somewhere. Note: I'll experiment on these levels later to see if i can get it any faster.
Posted: 11/3/2006 5:40 PM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
My run has level three starting on frame 4840. Im not sure where this difference is coming from without seeing the other versions in question. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2540/implem.smv Unlike the other versions, mine avoids uneeded cursor movement, and doesnt "play around" at all. That might change later, but for the moment all I was focusing on was time and strategy. Just so that no one else has to say it-- level 7 is terrable, I tried again with a different strategy and got a far better time, that said, the times should be decent at least for the other levels, though I doubt they are perfect. I was trying to hex-edit in a repaired version for that level, but every time I tried to do that, it screwed up the video from that point on. I might just have to re-do the levels after that point.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:25 AM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
New version. cleaned up level 7, though im not convinced its as fast as it can be. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2547/implem.smv It goes up to level 13, and has ~6000 frames on the end of useless shit. All comments welcome =D.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 11/5/2006 4:43 AM
Post subject: 118
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Acmlm
Active player (478)
Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada
Hm, this one uses Lemmings (U) (V1.0).smc, while I used Lemmings (U) (V1.1) [!].smc ... not sure what's different between them if anything, but the timing is a few frames off (desync) if I use the wrong ROM ... Anyway, comparing with my run now: (end of each level, when it fades out completely) lvl -- mine - yours ---- diff 01 -- 2563 - 2536 --> +27 (gain: +27) Small gain from digging the minimum height, while I was 1 pixel too high. 02 -- 4357 - 4324 --> +33 (gain: +6) 03 -- 6384 - 6461 --> -77 (gain: -110) Setting the 99 drop and first blocker was too slow. 04 -- 9429 - 9663 --> -234 (gain: -161) Bad timing for when the mining ended, all the other lemmings had to walk back and forth the whole way before falling. 05 -- 12566 - 12783 --> -217 (gain: +17) 06 -- 14642 - 14947 --> -205 (gain: +12) 07 -- 19032 - 19071 --> -39 (gain: +166) Good improvement there, yet it does look like it could be even better, with the 2 lemmings you missed ... 08 -- 21454 - 21494 --> -40 (gain : -1) 09 -- 24219 - 24208 --> +11 (gain: -51) All the messing around in my run must have cost more time than I thought here ... 10 -- 25568 - 25641 --> -73 (gain: -84) Slow start again. 11 -- 29677 - 30003 --> -326 (gain: -253) Faster digging from the right (using multiple lemmings) but you didn't go all the way with it, which must be how you lost 4 seconds ... I used the spare bashers on the left side instead, but I'm not sure which one is faster. 12 -- 33112 - 33058 --> +54 (gain: +380) Possibly more lag by not killing off the last lemmings, but using bombers to clear the way at the end was apparently much faster (and smarter) than builders. 13 -- xxxxx - 36942 Mine stopped there so I can't compare, but I'm sure you were a little faster there as well, by setting the diggers in a way the last lemmings can simply walk down (I made all of them dig). Overall, this is hardly an improvement on mine yet, although some parts were definitely better ... also remember you can hold B to move the cursor faster, which really helps sometimes. I'm working on my own improvement now as well to see if I could do better, and redid the first 3 levels so far: http://acmlm.cjb.net:2/emu/snes/snes9x/smv1/Lemmings-b1.smv Comparing this new one with yours: 01 -- 2536 - 2398 --> +138 (gain: +138) A new trick I found: 10 lemmings together dig faster than one! 02 -- 4324 - 4187 --> +137 (gain: -1) 03 -- 6461 - 6115 --> +346 (gain: +209) The drop rate and first blocker were optimized better. Finding the optimal drop timing for level 4 won't be easy ...
Posted: 11/5/2006 5:07 AM
(Edited: 11/5/2006 5:49 AM)
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
For some reason, I get nothing but timeout errors from your website, so I still havent actually seen your run. Any chance you could upload it to dehacked's site? I really want to see what you have... all those links are infuriating. Thanks for the heads up on the "B" thing, didnt even realize, that is the main reason #3 was so slow. As sloppy as #7 looks, I dont think it can be improved by more then a second or 2. This is because all that really matters is that the bridge over the hole near the end is started as soon as possable, and lemmings flow over it as desely as possable after that. To improve it, adjust the drop rate so that the second (or third) lemming reaches the first builder (the one making the small step up) the instant the step is walkable. in level 11, its not as simple question as it seems to use extra bashers the whole way, because you need as many of the lemmings as you can to get turned around so that they dont walk all the way to the edge. I should have tested further to find out the best place to do this. In level 12, I think it might be possable to only kill 2 lemmings to make the path walkable, but dispite half an hour of trying, I never got it to work. None the less, worth looking into. Overall, my run is kinda thrown together, and at times its not quite as good as it should be. Im still new to this whole TAS buisness. I might need to start over with level one, but at least I think this will be the last time.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 11/5/2006 5:47 AM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
10 edits and counting! Looks like Twelvepack is going for a record! Seriously, though, either use the Preview ability, or check the 'this is a minor edit' box when modifying your post. IRC doesn't need to know that you wanted to adjust the spacing of your sentences so many times over. e: 11!
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Posted: 11/5/2006 5:51 AM
(Edited: 11/5/2006 5:53 AM)
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Irc knows about this...? Sorry if that got annoying, but I kept thinking I was done, only to think of something else that needed to be mentioned. I didnt know people were watching me that closely. -crawls back into his hole- At least now, what started as 1 sentence is now ma veritable masterpiece of lemmingology.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
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