Post by Brossentia

Posted: 6/24/2014 9:38 AM

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Assassin

Joined: 10/28/2004
Posts: 39

keylie: http://home.comcast.net/~assassin17/c1bank.txt has a handful of functions commented that aren't in the Slick page (or comments them more thoroughly). 98% of the time, mine's going to be inferior (which is why i rarely link it), but it is the better option for some of the terrain in C1 you're covering. now, it appears you've done most of the work yourself, but maybe you can doublecheck things or whatever. :/

Posted: 6/24/2014 10:40 AM

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keylie

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Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2837)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Thanks a lot Assassin! Indeed, you have very well commented the critical portions of the code during the sketch glitch. This would have saved me a bit of time, but doing the work myself has the benefit of a deeper understanding of the code :). BTW, I also used your Bank C2 doc, thanks a lot for all the work you've done on this! Mold index is independent of spell setup, so yes, you can form all combinations. I'm writing a lua script that will predict all the wrong reads/writes occurring from the sketch glitch, and interpret the consequences for known RAM addresses (item list, in-battle spell list, etc.). I don't think I can predict crashes though, so testing will still be necessary for potential interesting outcomes.

Posted: 6/24/2014 11:43 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I've tested fairly thoroughly (the hard way) on mold 0, and I can get different results depending on which exact formation it is. For starters, I can only get " La " by using the standard "7F41" version of the sketch glitch on mold 0. (The one that people do by accident.) Now for some unknown reason, some formations using mold 0 give me the same glitched items, but different glitched spells. (No engulf!) And to make it even weirder, I found at least one formation (160) where I could get " La ", but I was unable to select it. The spell was castable, but it had no valid targets (?) so it did that instant-cancel thing.

Template 0-10F: (3,17), (21,2C)

Fight the Sand Ray x2 formation that is used in the glitch demonstration video. When using 7E20FF = 1703 the first party member will have a certain set of corrupt spells and a Head Band equipped in the right hand. Now switch to the 7E20FF = 2C21 variation. You should see a different set of corrupt spells and have Goggles equipped to the right hand instead. (If you try to replicate this example then make sure Relm is not the first party member. The game hangs because her sketch animation never completes, but that's not the point. The point is that I found two different results for the same size template.) I don't mean to say you're wrong. I'm just saying that there are more factors to the glitch than mold and size template. It might be the case that mold and size template determine how your inventory is corrupted, and that some other factor(s) may influence how your left hand, right hand, and spell list are corrupted. ...and from manual testing I've found that the end result we're after seems to be pretty rare. Lots of formations with mold 0 just don't give the same result, don't let me cast " La " (160 - Baskevor), or are disallowed by another rule (175/176 - IAF or anything on the FC). So far I've only had success with formations 10 (2x Sand Ray) and 32 (2x Brawler).

Posted: 6/24/2014 12:14 PM

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keylie

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Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2837)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Catastrophe wrote:

Template 0-10F: (3,17), (21,2C)
Fight the Sand Ray x2 formation that is used in the glitch demonstration video. When using 7E20FF = 1703 the first party member will have a certain set of corrupt spells and a Head Band equipped in the right hand. Now switch to the 7E20FF = 2C21 variation. You should see a different set of corrupt spells and have Goggles equipped to the right hand instead. I don't mean to say you're wrong. I'm just saying that there are more factors to the glitch than mold and size template.

Well, I was wrong, I forgot to take into account the information about the pointer to data sprite that can also change. As a general matter, don't forget that this document is really a draft, there can be mistakes in it, don't hesitate to say I'm wrong when I am :) If you exclude the grouping I've made, it makes a total of about 220 spell setups that set the sprite height to 0. You can list all of them using this lua script using latest version of Bizhawk. About variations on monster formations, I don't really know. The glitch copies portion of ROM into RAM based on values in $822D - $842D. Most of it ($8259+) depends mostly on mold number only. However, $83F1-$8589 holds horizontally flips of each sprite, which requires the actual enemy width ($812F,Y). The enemy width can be different from the enemy slot of the mold, right? If so, you can have a dependency on the actual monster formation. Did you notice if differences in monster formations of the same mold were correlated with differences in sprites width?

Posted: 6/24/2014 2:01 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I started to make a list of which mold 0 formations worked for me (with 7F41) and which ones didn't. And to my surprise they almost all started working! x_x These were the three that worked originally: 10: Sand Ray, Sand Ray 32: Brawler, Brawler 175: Sky Armor, Sky Armor, Spit Fire 53: Beakor - technically works. However, you can't cast muddle. (I think I misreported formation 160 earlier.) 160: Baskevor - crashes or reboots the game, (multiple tests, seems to be random) Surprisingly, all 5 of these monsters are the same "width", although they have different amounts of transparent space. I'm not sure if that matters? The Sand Ray appears to be a much smaller size, but I think technically it isn't. Between the first four formations there is still a slight variation. The Sand Ray formation takes about half an hour for the sketch glitch to return control. The Sky Armor formation returns control very fast. But the items and spells are consistent.

Template 1-FE: (29,50), (29,80), (41,26), (41,36), (41,39), (41,48), (41,7C), (41,7F), (41,9E), (41,C8), (41,D5), (41,E2), (41,E4), (41,F4), (43,A), (43,24)

So back to this. 7F41 is the common sketch glitch. The rest of these numbers all work, but provide different results from 7F41. Is it just that value of 7E20FF that matters? EDIT: I might be fatigued, but neither of these numbers work for me.

Template 1-1CE: (2,F4), (61,B6)

Posted: 6/24/2014 3:35 PM

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keylie

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Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2837)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Catastrophe wrote:

I might be fatigued, but neither of these numbers work for me.
Template 1-1CE: (2,F4), (61,B6)

Thanks for noticing it. Indeed, the glitch doesn't trigger. In my code, I was testing if the 8-bit variable $822D is 0, but I made a mistake, I have to test if the 16-bit variable $822D-$822E is 0.

Posted: 7/19/2014 7:26 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (13)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559

I done sequence breaking in the past. The Doma cutscenes wont load properly if you haven't finished the Imperial Camp. If you want the ghosts and Gau, save after the Imperial camp and do the airship glitch and skip the Phantom Forest and head directly to Barren Falls. Gau will fail to appear in the Veldt if you didn't go to Barren Falls. Then get Strago and Relm, then enter the Phantom Forest from the south side with only Sabin and Cyan. If you still want to use Lore, bring Strago also. Having a ghost join you replaces either Strago or Relm. Having two join replaces both. It is wise to check their stats beforehand. In Pony Fantasy VI, you cannot do vanish then doom on most bosses as the bug was fixed. But you can still do Joker Doom.

Posted: 7/19/2014 10:40 PM

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Patashu

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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4042

http://www.twitch.tv/brossentia/c/4698971 Final boss skip for FF6 using sketch glitch corrupted menus

My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu

Posted: 7/20/2014 5:14 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (13)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559

On Pony Fantasy VI, many of the bosses were buffed. Even if I used Joker Doom on Ultima Weapon, it had the life 3 buff. A few others have over 65,535 HP and require more than one use of Joker Doom. I can't get 7-7-7 twice in a row. I had to cast Muddle, attack with the Heal Rod, and get 7-7-BAR. Sometimes, Muddle may fail. Casting Vanish beforehand will ensure it will hit. Pony Fantasy IV uses the base ROM 'Final Fantasy III (U) (v1.1)' so the sketch glitch won't work. Thanks to the new discovery in 1.0, we can beat the game faster. So screw Pony Fantasy VI, we can just skip to the ending.

Posted: 7/22/2014 3:09 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I was able to equip the Goggles without a multi-minute delay by using mould 4 instead of mould 0. Specifically I did it on the Floating Continent against a Dragon. And yeah, BabaBreath is the greatest thing since Vanish+Doom. I had already tested it in the final dungeon. It's easy and there's no strange timing involved. Just use "wait" instead of "active". The TAS already uses "wait" because that's how we manipulate critical hits and targets. Since I can easily get 2 pairs of Goggles equipped at once I'll storm Kefka's Tower with either triple Goggles or Goggles/Goggles/Echo Screen + JokerDoom. The real problem facing this run is the airship glitch. Currently there's no way to "engulf" yourself without a multi-minute wait. I mean not just the set up and execution (with muddle) but the big black screen which scars the middle of the run. I'd like to figure out some way around that before I think about starting. But then again, I guess I could go all the way up to Vector. None of the breakthroughs affect that portion of the game. I looked at keylie's wiki again and he's making some progress predicting which items launch which broken animation code when equipped as a weapon. If he finds something relevant there then that might change everything. Or he might be planning to do the run? Competition won't improve this run.

Posted: 7/22/2014 8:21 PM

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keylie

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Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2837)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Sorry, I didn't update this for a while. It is possible to get Engulfed from the Triangle Island, saving us to do the Floating Continent and the Airship glitch. Using the Goggles glitch, you can cast Engulf by launching a Black Belt. As the Black Belt is not a usable item, we have to flag the item as usable before, by using the sketch glitch. All the information that the sketch glitch is doing on the inventory, arm slots and commands is summarised in this speadsheet. Sorry if it's not very clear. Using the same technique (deflagging), it is possible to equip Moogle Charms during a fight. Some spell setups for the sketch glitch can generate Moogle Charms in the inventory, including Mute type setups, and other setups can flag it as a weapon (or shield) and equippable. We might go for double Google glitch + Slot for Kefka tower or triple Goggles as Catastrophe suggested. I don't know yet what is the fastest. Also, Sneeze has an advantage over Bababreath as it can be multi target and doesn't remove your character from the party. The problem is that the associated item is not usable so a sketch is required like with Engulf. Catastrophe, we (Kadmony, Simon and me) are totally planning to do the TAS. We are still setting up the Engulf strat because it requires multiple sketches. Also, I started the first inputs last week. The Narshe route is way from obvious though, I have to test 2/3 different strats. I think your strat is faster than Erokky's one, it's just that you didn't have a preemptive on the first fight and on the fifth one. There is another Whelk strat using Battle Speed 3 (only this value works): if Whelk body gets his turn before the second turn of the head, he doesn't Gruuu and the ATB is emptied again. So it's possible to kill him with 3 Tek missiles and 1 Beam, saving two attacks. However, the head attacks three times instead of 1 :( I just found something else today: you remember that for most fights with a preemptive or side and a large party, not everyone is escaping on the first try? Well, you can avoid that by setting the Message Speed to 2 (or more, probably) instead of 1. It costs you 16 frames by message (Starting messages, magics, commands, etc.) but it saves 2 seconds per escape. So I think it's worth it, starting South Figaro at least. Well, using previous TASes, it is possible to compute exactly how much time it saves (if any) and where to switch it on or off. Man, doing an RPG TAS with an already existing one is so much easier.

Posted: 7/22/2014 10:16 PM

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for everything you're doing here. Everything's progressing quickly, and it's exciting to see. I'm not much of a TAS guy--simply put, I mostly don't understand anything that's going on--but I'm having fun breaking the game and trying to apply it to speedruns. Keylie, this guide is amazing. Thank you for putting it together. I'm just a little confused about a couple sections. The first is about the queue of the 28th spell availability. It looks like the battle that we'd be using to get goggles is mould 0 with 41FF. FF is the availability, correct? Increasing it by one (by imping and unimping) should put it to F0; is that right? I'm completely unsure, though. Could you possibly clarify this for me? It would be greatly appreciated. Also, for item targeting, what if more than one aiming is available? Does the game default to any kind of aiming, or are all those possible? Is it the same with the item flags, as well? Again, thank you. I greatly appreciate everything you're doing to destroy this game.

Posted: 7/23/2014 12:04 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

If you're making the movie, I'm not. I was only going to start because I wanted to break the cycle of waiting for more improvements. I think you're more capable anyway. You're the one coming up with the interesting notes.

It is possible to get Engulfed from the Triangle Island, saving us to do the Floating Continent and the Airship glitch. Using the Goggles glitch, you can cast Engulf by launching a Black Belt. As the Black Belt is not a usable item, we have to flag the item as usable before, by using the sketch glitch.

Using a Black Belt as an item is theoretically possible, but I couldn't get it to work. Getting the SG to give you a Black Belt with the desired flags seems hard, since I've never seen the SG give me a Black Belt. (It's one of the items I look for.) Fortunately the route already has a free Black Belt in it! So you'd need to position that Black Belt somewhere where the SG will overwrite the flags (and maybe targeting) but not also destroy the item id. Have you found that outcome? Furthermore, the Triangle Island doesn't give us much to work with. The Intangir seems to always crash hard when used as a target. (Rare Mould 3.) This leaves just a few undesirable mould 1 formations sketch against: 6, 7, 140, 141, and 142. Desert formation 139 is mould zero, but I couldn't get " la " with it. (Are the monsters too wide? Even in my original run I ran into problems where the SG behaved differently in test runs versus the actual run.)

Some spell setups for the sketch glitch can generate Moogle Charms in the inventory, including Mute type setups, and other setups can flag it as a weapon (or shield) and equippable.

This interests me very much! I've done a lot of testing (and crashing) with the SG in 2006 and 2014 and I've never once seen an item slot have its id set to 0xDE. Sure, if I could get it then I would jump through whatever hoops to get it equipped. You said you got it on a plain old mute setup? That blows my mind.

The Narshe route is way from obvious though, I have to test 2/3 different strats. I think your strat is faster than Erokky's one, it's just that you didn't have a preemptive on the first fight and on the fifth one.

Yeah, why did the developers make the m-tek run animation so slow? I'd kill Wedge and Vicks off if they weren't needed to manipulate Whelk's ATB gauge. If you need it, the 2x Sand Ray formation gives 41 xp for each of Locke and Terra. And it should be faster to win than any of the battles against Repo Man or Leafer. (Who are only worth 20 a piece anyway.)

I just found something else today: you remember that for most fights with a preemptive or side and a large party, not everyone is escaping on the first try? Well, you can avoid that by setting the Message Speed to 2 (or more, probably) instead of 1.

I love new findings like this! I don't know how many of the preemptives are the "slow" ones but this would sure make producing the run much more sane. Because the problem with the slow preemptives is, when you find one, you have to test the other 15 possibilities for a possible non-preemptive which is faster. (Or decide that this is a good time to use the submenu.) So don't forget to count the time saved by having to wait less for less manipulation. I was waiting an average of 24 frames before each random battle in my run.

Posted: 7/23/2014 1:47 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Brossentia wrote:

Catastrophe, just looking at his guide, there are several variations that create moogle charms. I finally got things working (phew!), and it's easiest to manipulate the items by imping and un-imping the first character as they cast spells. You can get moogle charms with mould 1, but unfortunately those are not equippable. Mould 3 and 4 look like they should have equippable charms, but I had the mould 4 glitch crash the game on me. It's very possible I set things up incorrectly. What would be best, I assume, is for the first character to have a gembox to cast the spells faster; gemboxes are easy to get with sketch. Great stuff here. This is all amazing work.

I like your videos! And welcome to the forum. I was going to ask "where is his guide?" because I was only reading his wiki. I just found the .ods file with all the possibilities a minute ago. Oh boy! But yeah, the game crashing or hanging is kind of the thing. Let's see what happens...

Posted: 7/23/2014 2:00 AM

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

Thanks, Catastrophe! I mostly like making things understandable for everyone; all these technical details boggle my mind, but I'm starting to get them. So far, I only managed to get the mould 10 moogle charms equipped with the setup 619C, and I couldn't escape the battle. Drat. I'm sure that there are different setups and moulds that would work better, but I haven't found them yet. One crucial thing I forgot is that not every character slot can equip everything. Oops. Feel free to spoil which mould/spell setup would work best, Keylie. This is fun to test, but I'm always happy with help.

Posted: 7/23/2014 7:32 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

The initial results are promising but I haven't found a slam dunk of a setup. I did finally get a Moogle Charm. Keylie's spreadsheet contains a list of possibilities, but not all of those possibilities necessarily come true. For example, you might get 93 Moogle Charms and then the game crashes. Or sometimes you'd just not get your item. Maybe sometimes a second round of memory corruption happens and rewrites your inventory? Keylie's spreadsheet also lists possibilities for each mould. But not every mould is reachable. For example, mould 9 is only used by Tritoch, which does us no good. Moulds 3 and 6 are notable for being able to access the 'engulf' variables directly, but those are dangerous moulds. Half of the game is mould 0 or mould 1. So I tested those. Mould 2 doesn't appear in the World of Balance at all. I'm ignoring it for now. Moulds 3-12 are each very rare. Some of them, I think, can only be sketched on the Veldt. Mould 3 is the Intangir mould and I was never productive with it. Mould 6 is basically exclusive to the bosses in Kefka's Domain and Atma. Sketching Atma pretty much sets your console on fire and ejects the cartridge no matter how you set it up. Hopefully it leads to a crazy ACE setup someday? But it doesn't "work" like a normal sketch glitch. EDIT: This is too good not to share. Most of my tests on mould 6 (Atma) immediately exploded the game. One of the two that did not somehow reconfigured my input. (Remember this game features a strange "2 controller" option.) The result was that L, R, B, and A all had the effect of pausing or unpausing the battle. Y became A, select became B, X became select (nothing), and in submenus pressing left would cancel. How does that even happen? Especially the select button which isn't normally used. I thought it was amusing. And then the game crashed.

Posted: 7/23/2014 8:32 AM

Post subject: Testing Results, part 1

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I searched for all instances of "Moogle Charm" or "Black Belt" in Keylie's spreadsheet, noted their setup, noted their expected useable or equipable flags, and tested all of them.

Mould 0

I did all of my testing against 2x Sand Ray because it was the most stable earlier and it is easily accessible. 7E20FF=312 - NG - Expected result is a Moogle Charm which is equippable for party member 3. All I wrote down was 'X'. 430 - NG - Expected results is a MC which can be equipped by members 1 and 4. I did get that result, but I couldn't escape the battle. 48A - OK - Gives you a MC which can be immediately equipped on party members 1 or 2. However, the resulting animation takes 70,000 frames to finish. 212C - OK - Gives you a MC which can be equipped on anyone except #3. Ally #1 also somehow ends up with Goggles equipped which is a nice bonus! Too bad this animation takes 130,000 frames to return. 2980 - OK - Gives you a plain MC which can't be immediately equipped. Works fine and only takes 10k frames to resume. 41CD - OK - It is supposed to give you a MC which is equipable to anyone except #4. I wasn't able to equip the MC and this also took 10k frames to return. 6AC2 - NG - This is supposed to directly equip a MC onto party member 4. I never lived to see it though. I could delay the hang by queuing a Warp Stone, but I never escaped the battle. 1B8 - NG - I expected a useable Black Belt. Instead I got no Black Belt at all and a hang. 4D4 - NG - This does give me a useable BB, but then the game hangs. 4136 - OK - This puts a Black Belt directly onto member #4, and technically one with the right "useable" flag. But it can't be used. 417F - OK - Same as above. Only good if you want a BB. 41E2 - NG - I got the Black Belt, but the game hung. (It wasn't a useable BB anyway.) 41EF - OK - Gives you the expected unusable BB, but there is a long wait.

Mould 1

I did all of my testing against formation 12 (1x Sand Ray 2x Areneid) because it seemed natural after doing my other testing against formation 10. 7E20FF = 3FA - OK - Puts a bunch of Moogle Charms into slot 255 as promised! There is a lot of lag, but no wait! These Moogle Charms can be equipped on anyone with the optimum glitch. One small problem, you'll have to save and reload. On all interior maps the world will be shaking, the camera won't follow you, and you'll be prone to rare teleports inside of walls. (But a save and reload fixes all that.) 3FC - OK - Promised me a MC that I could equip on #1 or #3, but gave me an unequipable MC instead. No delay though. 434 - OK - Correctly gave me a plain MC that couldn't be equipped in battle. 2959 - NG - Returned quickly, but didn't give me a MC at all. 4126 - OK - Correctly changed slot 209 to be a Moogle Charm with 0 quantity. (This is not useless.) I think it also correctly inherited the equip flags of the slot before its contents were replaced. 6144 - NG - Did not give me a Moogle Charm. 6A36 - OK - The Moogle Charm was supposed to be equipable to #4, but no one could equip it. 6AEE - NG - Did not give me a Moogle Charm. 1B6 - OK - Gave me an unequipable MC and an unusable BB like it was supposed to. 3B8 - OK - Very laggy, but it does provide both (yes both) useable Black Belts that it claims to. 4F4 - NG - The only item I got was Dirks. (2 Soul Sabers at the end.) Very unusual. No Black Belts. 41E2 - OK - If you want your Black Belt in slot 255 for some reason, this works fine. This outcome also breaks the interior cameras. 61CA - OK - Like 3B8 this also correctly provides a pair of useable Black Belts. 6A58 - NG - Was supposed to provide a useless Black Belt. Instead crashed the game. Kind of unusual for mould 1. 6A7A - OK - Very laggy, but it does provide a useable Black Belt. tl;dr - mould 1 can provide a stable Moogle Charm if you're willing to save and reload. There are numerous safe ways to obtain a useable Black Belt and everything on the Triangle Island is mould 1. So now we don't even need the glitch that rekindled the interest in this TAS.

Posted: 7/23/2014 9:27 AM

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keylie

He/Him

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2837)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Brossentia wrote:

The first is about the queue of the 28th spell availability. It looks like the battle that we'd be using to get goggles is mould 0 with 41FF. FF is the availability, correct? Increasing it by one (by imping and unimping) should put it to F0; is that right? I'm completely unsure, though. Could you possibly clarify this for me? It would be greatly appreciated.

Hi man, and welcome. For the spell availability, you have to write the number in binary. FF = 11111111. When you do something that possibly changes the availability of the spell (consuming MPs, getting imped/deimped), the game checks again if you can cast the spell. If you can, it will push a 0 from the left of the number and throw out the rightest one, becoming 01111111 (or 7F in hex). If you can't, it will push a 1, becoming 11111111. Also, the game defaults this value to11111111 but makes a single check at the beginning of the fight, so if you can cast the spell, it will be 01111111. The three common setups that are described in masterZ faq are: - normal setup: 01111111 (7F) - imp: 11111111 (FF) - normal then imp: 10111111 (BF) You can see that with the 41 type spell, these three lines in my doc are present (417F, 41BF and 41FF) but there are plenty of other ones.

Brossentia wrote:

Also, for item targeting, what if more than one aiming is available? Does the game default to any kind of aiming, or are all those possible? Is it the same with the item flags, as well?

With the Goggles glitch, it will use the targeting of the item to cast the spell, so technically, you can cast spells with other targetings. However, if the game didn't implement it, it is not possible. Exemples of this is Engulf and Bababreath. Even if the hand cursor says it is multi target, the spell will only be casted on a single target. Catastrophe, for the MC equipability, did you also check if the weapon or shield flag was on in the doc? I think it's necessary.

Posted: 7/23/2014 4:55 PM

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

As a quick note, mould 3 is generally unstable, but it occasionally will function in certain circumstances. This probably doesn't matter too much, but if you get a side attack against a Hades Gigas with 41BF, you can still escape the battle. It also gives characters magitek armor in battle--cool, but slower and a bit useless. With that in mind, is the sketch glitch with mould 3 accessing information about back/side/pincer attacks? If so, changing that up could make it usable. Keylie, I did have a question about the equippability. What happens when something appears to be equippable both as a weapon and a shield? I just wanted to make sure, but it seems like it can't be equipped as either. Is there any reason for that? Any way to work around it? Catastrophe, mould 1 sounds promising. It's pretty easy to get remedy into slot 28. The next optimal thing would to have quick access to a usable black belt or an engulf spell that can be targeted. I'm guessing 3B8, even with all the lag, might work for now; it's the same mould and spell setup. If we manage to find something better, then awesome sauce. 61CA might also be a good option, especially if it has less lag.

Posted: 7/23/2014 6:49 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

keylie wrote:

Catastrophe, for the MC equipability, did you also check if the weapon or shield flag was on in the doc? I think it's necessary.

Oops. It still needs to be flagged as a weapon or a shield. Well, I would've tried equipping them anyway. I tested some unequipable MCs and unusable BBs just in the off chance that they would work. Your spreadsheet is amazing. It's so convenient to look at a table and pick out the desirable outcomes! I think we all have FF3usME but just in case, here's a mould reference. Brossentia - Side and pincer attacks are great idea! When I test the rare formations I'll be sure to try those when possible. For moulds 0 and 1 if I find a result I like (maybe 212C) but with a side effect that I don't like (such as a 19 minute wait) then I can manipulate that by using a different formation. For the delay it seems to matter which enemy I sketched, maybe their width or position on screen. For rare moulds I don't have the option of moving to another enemy so I need another parameter to change.

Posted: 7/25/2014 11:38 PM

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

Catastrophe, I noticed something odd. I've managed to make black belts usable items with 3B8; however, they cast fire rather than engulf. Are you sure that black belts have anything to do with engulf? EDIT: Oh, wait, do you combine it with the goggles glitch? If so, this is gonna get crazy.

Posted: 7/26/2014 10:15 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Brossentia wrote:

Catastrophe, I noticed something odd. I've managed to make black belts usable items with 3B8; however, they cast fire rather than engulf. Are you sure that black belts have anything to do with engulf? EDIT: Oh, wait, do you combine it with the goggles glitch? If so, this is gonna get crazy.

Yeah! =D Use them with Goggles. There are lots of ways to corrupt your spell list to contain Engulf, but not all of them create a castable spell and/or something else goes wrong. Plus, in order to get the "Muddle Engulf" to work you're going to need Muddle (maybe free) and a Gem Box. Muddle never* cooperates with a corrupted spell list otherwise. But that requires sketching once, equipping the Gem Box, and fighting another battle. And probably that means delaying the Moogle Charms until that second battle... A couple Goggles, three Moogle Charms, and getting engulfed. We're not asking for too much here. :) Goggles + Black Belt doesn't remove the need for something else. The last member can't Engulf themselves because someone else must also be attacking with the Goggles. (One person attacking with the Goggles can enable two others, but then the Goggles wielder is stuck.) So we need a Quick spell or a natural ("natural") Engulf for the last person. Seems easier to me than Muddle + " la " though. The Black Belts are key because I've only cast Engulf from my spell list via mould 0. But there are only mould 1s on the Triangle Island. (And the Intangir.) If I can get Engulf'd on the Triangle Island then we can skip the IAF and Floating Continent completely! Come to think of it, testing the Black Belts in mould 0 was useless. Oh well.

Posted: 7/26/2014 1:36 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I think I have it! 1) Put Terra in the lead with a single-target, default-ally spell in the 28th slot. (Antdot) 2) Put Relm, Edgar, and Locke in the party too. 3) Move a pair of Goggles into the 184th slot. 4) Fly to the Triangle Island and encounter Leafers and/or Dark Winds. 5) Setup "03FA" through shenanigans then sketch and miss. 6) Equip the Goggles on everyone except Terra. (You may move it up in the list.) 7) Run and get on the airship, which will be exploding. You will be invisible too. 8) Change party members for Gau, Cyan, and Sabin. 9) Sell all weapons for Cyan and Sabin. 10) Optimum to equip the Moogle Charm on Gau, Cyan, and Sabin. 11) Change party members for just Terra and Relm. 12) Rearrange your spells such that the aiming byte is 0x61. (Fire, Ice2) 13) Land the airship and encounter Leafers and/or Dark Winds. 14) Setup "61EE" through shenanigans. 15) Switch Relm's items so that the Goggles are in her L-Hand. 16) Sketch and miss. 17) Have Terra use Engulf, but quickly have Relm cast Muddle. 18) Manipulate Terra engulfing Relm, the enemy missing, and Terra engulfing herself. You've now got 3 people with Goggles (Relm, Edgar, and Locke) and 3 people with Moogle Charms. Walk out of the Zone Eater, save and reload, and go beat the game. The spell list which enables this is: Scan Slow Rasp (7x Siren) Mute Safe Sleep (8/10x Siren) Muddle Haste Stop (7x Stray) Bserk Float Imp (5x Stray) Cure Cure2 Cure3 (natural magic) Life Life2 Antdot (natural magic) Remedy Regen Life 3 (Unicorn x3 or Sraphim x4) Fire Ice Bolt (natural magic, Shiva) Poison Drain Fire2 (natural magic) Ice 2 Bolt2 Bio (Shiva x5 - do not learn Osmose!) Then you can set your magic order grey/black/white for 3xx setups or grey/white/black for 61xx setups. For the longest time step 14 was "Move your Black Belt into slot 184" but I just couldn't find a way to Engulf everyone. When sketching against mould 1 you can always get Engulf anytime you want by moving a Black Belt into slot 184 and doing both glitches. If someone can think of how to get everyone Engulfed then it would save a lot of time. Quick doesn't work. (Step 18 isn't practical in a console run. So just sketch again before hand to be prepared with a Gem Box.)

Posted: 7/26/2014 4:57 PM

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

Catastrophe, brilliant! I was trying to figure out how we'd get engulf on Triangle Island, but I guess I forgot to actually try. Now, weren't you able to get usable black belts with mould 1 before? I mean, that's the same kind of battle you're fighting. Would that take longer to set up rather than the way you've lined things up? Then again, I'm not sure if those spell setups we talked about (3B8 and 61CA) are any better than putting the black belt where you want it. That sounds quick and reasonable. Good to know that we still have to have muddle. Oh, fun stuff. This will be reasonable for a TAS but a tad bit frustrating for console. Eh, we'll deal with it. Awesome stuff. I'm liking this. EDIT: Would it even be worth getting Celes rather than Kutan now? Double EDIT: Several speedrunners are interested in the JP version, as well. I know it's not a high priority here, but is there any item that, if used as magic, would cast sketch?

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