Post subject: Commodore 64 stuff...
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708
Okay, this is the official thread where I look like a dumb noob for requesting something that none of you has any power over and that has probably been requested before. Basically, I'm really really anxious to see a Commodore 64 emulator with re-recording support. Anyone have any leads? I like the CCS64 emulator, but it doesn't have movie recording support at all, let alone re-recording. It doesn't seem to have an open source either, as far as I can tell. I know from personal experience, however, that the emulator has slowdown and save states so it would seem that re-recording is far from impossible. It also seems the author added netplay recently, so he's willing to implement new features. Any comments? I can think of a ton of games that would be great for re-recording.
Editor, Expert player (2072)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
First, it has to have open source, or none of us can do anything about it. Why not open source? Commodore 64 is classic. There's no reason why it shouldn't be open source. Oh wait, it's shareware. Game over. Hopefully there's another Commodore 64 emulator. Edit: http://www.zophar.net/c64.html
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
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Maybe you should beg the author to make it not shareware anymore. "Come on, I bet you've collected enough registration fees to last you a lifetime! Now hand over the source."
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
VICE is OSS and has recording capabilities. I'd have to play with it some more to figure out its capabilities, but it will probably need tweaking to make it as useful as our other emulators.
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
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I did some more considering and there are some slight inherent problems with rerecording for C64 games, which I've recommended workarounds for. 1. Same principle as DOSBox or Amiga: It would likely be very difficult to record every single possible input because there's an entire keyboard that the player can use. Maybe a re-recording version of a Commodore emulator should only record joystick input, plus the function keys, spacebar, and return. (The majority of games won't use more keys than this, even for high score input) The downside to this is that a few certain games would not be playable, especially text adventures. Still, a speedrun of a text adventure would be pretty stupid. 2. Rerecording for C64 games should start at the moment the games are finished loading, not startup. A few reasons for this. First, if my above suggestion was taken, that would mean the emulator can't record the commands you'd need to enter in order to load the games (LOAD"*",8,1 for example). Second, many many C64 games are bootlegged and many many people have hacked the games to add a "BROKEN BY ELITEHACKER92" title screen prior to the game loading, meaning that if two people use the same ROM, they could have very different load times before the game starts and that would mean the video would desync. 3. Commodore emulators emulate two different rom formats. D64s are disks, and T64s are tapes. So an author would have to specify which ROM and which ROM format they're using when they publish. Jumpman.d64 and Jumpman.t64 could be slightly different. I guess this isn't really a problem since the authors are required to specify the full rom name anyway. I really hope someone would somehow be able to create a re-recording emulator for Commodore 64, as I've thought of a large number of games that I would personally love to do a TAS of, and the number keeps growing in my mind every time I think of it.
Active player (406)
Joined: 3/22/2006
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If any programmer would like some motivation, let me describe some games I have in mind. Beach Head II This is actually four two-player games in one (The CPU can play as either of the players). Game A (my favourite) has one player control an army of soldiers who need to run back and forth between cover in order to avoid getting killed by a gigantic machinegun turret. The first half of the game, the first player is on the defensive while the second player tries to pick off as many soldiers as possible and get an early score advantage. The second half, the soldiers can simply run for it, or go on the offensive as they get close enough to hurl grenades at the turret. A TAS of this game could be played many different ways. As the second player, the author could try to kill all the soldiers as soon as possible. As the first player, the author could do numerous things. A. A timeattack where he tries to get the survivors to the end of the level as quickly as possible, sacrificing soldiers in order to save time and still end up with a higher score. B. A no-deaths run, where every single soldier survives. (Conventionally impossible) C. A maximum score run, where you blow up the turret as many times as possible. (Probably not as fun to watch since the game is halted every time the turret is replaced) Commando A simple bird's eye shooter where you shoot down soldiers and throw grenades in order to get through three short levels. The game's a little easy, but I think a speedrun would be fun to watch if the player does something impressive like use no grenades, or only grenades, or kill every single enemy. Forbidden Forest You play a hunter who must venture through a forest armed with only a bow and arrow and fight a variety of monsters such as giant spiders, dragons, big leaping frogs, ghosts, and skeletons. Incredibly violent (if a frog lands on you, you splatter. If a spider touches you, it sucks your blood out) and also kind of scary. Especially the last boss who you can't even see, except for a silhouette which is hard to see, since the sky is pitch black by the time you fight him. He moves around as well. The only times you ever really see him is when lightning strikes and after this happens five or six times you can clearly see that he's getting closer. If he reaches you, you lose all your lives and get a game over. A TAS of this game might be interesting, as part of the time consuming nature of the game is that it's hard to line up a good clean shot with your bow and you often have to make a run for it, reload and then come back to fire the next shot. Fort Apocalypse You fly a helicopter to rescue captives, destroy tanks, avoid airborne mines and then fly underground through a deep underground labyrinth, until you reach a strange fortress, blow up a reactor, and then escape. The need to occasionally refuel and teleporters add some fun elements to this odd game. Green Beret A side-scrolling game where you play a soldier armed only with a knife that must take on entire armies. The enemy troops are armed with guns, and so much as touching them kills you. A fun but extremely tough game. Flamethrowers can be found in the levels but only give you three shots. International Karate Unlike most fighting games, this one's fairly unique in that it defeats the purpose of button-mashing. All attacks do the same "damage" (every successful hit is a KO) meaning there's no uber-attacks that make the others less than useful. All attacks are equally useful, but are to be used in different situations. Example, a stomach punch is better when you're up close, but a jump kick is better when you're further away. If the opponent is blocking low, you do a high attack. If they're blocking high, do a leg sweep. Since you can mix it up and use just about any attack, watching a TAS of this game wouldn't be as boring as say, a Street Fighter 2 TAS where someone might do the same move over and over again. International Karate+ Same as above, but with different moves such as backward attacks, backflips, and headbutts. Also, you face two opponents at once, meaning the fights would be more intense. Jumpman Mostly a very simple game, it can get slightly more complicated in later levels. You control a character who must jump to avoid obstacles and enemies which vary in creative ways, in order to collect all the treasures in each level. Some levels have a puzzle aspect to them. Some occasional levels have particularly unique twists, like "invasion" where you forego your jumping ability in favour of a gun with which you can shoot down UFOs, or "Dragon Slayer" where instead of jumping you hurl spears. Another is "Hot Foot" where every time you jump the ground beneath you is destroyed (meaning you have to be careful where you land) What would make this particularly fun for a TAS is that you can choose a speed from 1 to 8 (1 being fastest) to play through the levels. Everything in the level, from your jumps to the timer is faster if you pick one of the faster speeds. Speed 4 is default, Speed 2 is much more challenging. Speed 1 is insane. Lode Runner This game was released for NES too, but I prefer the C64 version since it's a little faster paced and it shows the entire board (In the NES version you were shown a closeup of a cross-section, meaning that it was harder to see what was going on elsewhere in the map. This maybe makes it a bit more challenging to record, but it also means the viewer of the TAS has a harder time following along) For those unfamiliar with the game, you climb ladders in order to collect treasures while avoiding enemies. The unique part of the game is your ability to create holes in the ground, in order to trap enemies or give yourself a quick escape if you need one. Different levels are designed for you to use this ability in a variety of ways. Example: At least one level requires you to trap an enemy and have the hole reseal itself while he's still inside so that he's killed and regenerated over a treasure that he picks up, so you can take it from him. Space Taxi A really nuts game where you control a flying taxi that must pick up passengers on all sorts of weird planets and alternate dimensions and take them to their destinations, despite really really crazy obstacles. The physics are what makes this game challenging, especially on levels where the physics are manipulated by things such as black holes. Some luck manipulation would work wonders on this game, such as getting passengers to appear at the closest possible landings, and getting them to request the closest possible landings.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
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Hyena wrote:
1. Same principle as DOSBox or Amiga: It would likely be very difficult to record every single possible input because there's an entire keyboard that the player can use. Maybe a re-recording version of a Commodore emulator should only record joystick input, plus the function keys, spacebar, and return. (The majority of games won't use more keys than this, even for high score input) The downside to this is that a few certain games would not be playable, especially text adventures. Still, a speedrun of a text adventure would be pretty stupid.
But there are probably only enough keycodes to fill one byte, right? You could do like FCEU and have "Toggle key ### after ### frames" commands in the input file.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Editor, Expert player (2072)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
I was going to mention that it really makes no sense to press more than 3 keys not named Ctrl, Alt, or Shift. The game won't do anything different, since overflow keys should be ignored. There's a reason why keyboards won't let you register more than a few keys, anyway.
Joined: 10/30/2006
Posts: 28
The WinVice Emulator www.viceteam.org have some features to record games with savestates. It calles "History files" and can be recorded as MPEG4 video later. (sorry for my bad english) I use the WinVice history / videooption for my own project www.c64-longplays.de *It`s no speedrun site, more for the historical reasons. with a little training with Virtual Dub you can make videos with a little size in a great quality.
Joined: 10/16/2006
Posts: 174
I'd love to see some Comm 64 games TAS'd. I used to play this thing all the time when I was 5 years old. A few games that I know for a fact would be entertaining to be TAS'd. Super Pipeline II From it's title, you might think it's a skateboarding game, but far from it. There is a faucet full of water at the top left part of the screen as it pours water into a pipe which runs throughout the whole stage (and actually is the stage, seeing as how you walk and climb on the pipe) and drains into barrels at the bottom of the stage. As a plumber with a gun, it's your responsibility to prevent jackhammers and drills (as well as other enemies like lobsters) from making holes in the pipe. You also get mini-helpers (that you have to catch first) who can repair holes in the pipe. This game is extremely hard and I've never gotten past level 16. I don't even know if there is an ending for this game. As time goes on, the action goes super fast, so I think that would really help with the entertainment value. And although the songs can get repetitive, they're also pretty catchy. Trolls and Tribulations I think that if we ever get a decently working re-recording emulator, TASVideos would eat this game up. There are two sections to this game. The first consists of killing trolls that fall and/or hatch into the 1-room area of the game with your bow and arrow. After they are dead, you continue to a platforming section where you have to avoid enemies and use correct jumps, and collect treasure if you like. The music here is Commodore 64 versions of classical music, which wouldn't make it a pain to listen to.
Player (105)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 22
One of the old C64 games I remember well is Cauldron 2, a game where you control a bouncing pumpkin through a witch's castle in order to defeat the witch. (There's also a predecessor, named just Cauldron (or Hexenküche in the german version), where things are opposite: you play the witch and need to defeat the pumpkin. Just for reference - this post is about Cauldron 2). Using VICE and some selfmade tools I've begun making a TAS for that game. I've chosen Cauldron 2 as this is a good example for using helper tools for doing things that would be really difficult to do manually. You have little control about the pumpkin: only whenever it bounces on the floor you have the choice of jumping left, middle or right and jumping lower or higher, giving up to 6 choices in general. Also in some places you need to be pixel exact to achieve a given goal as quickly as possible. Reaching that pixel is one of the biggest problems. To achieve that I've made a kind of route planner (which has little in common with BisqBot). I've reverse engineered the game physics and created a model from that; together with Dijkstra's algorithm this can find quickest paths from A to B - the time it takes for computing differs, it's roughly one hour for 2000 frames. Also aspects like whether death abuse is beneficial can be incorporated. The result can be watched directly in the route planner (it has a built-in game graphics renderer which is very useful for tuning the physics model directly), furthermore it generates textual instructions about which button to press when. The second tool is a text-to-"Event History File" converter that takes a game state, a list of instructions (such as "press fire button for 10 frames" and "wait 30 frames") and generates a pair of "Event History Files" for playback in VICE. Probably the biggest problem with Cauldron 2 is its sloppy collision detection code which can miss player-world collisions, in a few rooms (those with a platform) about every fourth is missed. This has to be compensated for, usually by shooting without reason, just to "distract" the timing a bit. Let me know if you want to see the run (will take some time if it ever gets finished) or anything else mentioned above.
Player (105)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 22
I've TAS'd 3 Commodore 64 games so far * Cauldron 2 * FlaschBier * The Great Giana Sisters Timing is a bit difficult - there's no counterpiece for ROM images for most games so I've traced the "entry point" where control goes from the loader or intro to the game itself and used that one to start timing. Take a look if you're interested http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=taskabuto
Joined: 10/30/2006
Posts: 28
shallow wrote:
I'd love to see some Comm 64 games TAS'd. I used to play this thing all the time when I was 5 years old. A few games that I know for a fact would be entertaining to be TAS'd.
Woah! Now I see this post. Well, this are no Speedruns but under www.c64-longplays.de you can download a lot of C64 gamevideos. Not in the side but an actual project is here. http://c64gamevideoarchive.blogspot.com/ at the moment here are the first twenty gamevideoarchives. I will upload the others (at the moment 98 videos) in the next week.
Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
This is the C64 emulator used by speedruns.net On a random weird note, the filesize is 1337 KBs.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 6/8/2005
Posts: 236
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I'd like to see this take off. I've played around a bit with the savestates and slow motion capabilities of WinVICE and while they are lacking when compared to the features of such [modified] emulators as Snes9x, etc... with a few adjustments, I see it working.
Player (105)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 22
I'd like to see more Commodore 64 TAS stuff, too. But I doubt that this is going to happen on tasvideos for the reasons explained in this post. With a few exceptions there are no "ROMs". Most games were shipped on disks only. While almost all games are available on the internet on abandonware sites these are all cracked versions for various reasons. First of all most games were copy protected by using non-standard modifications to the disk data layout in order to thwart disk copy programs. Also, early C64 emulators also had no means for emulating images of copy protected disks (and emulation was not good enough to handle copy protected games correctly). Obtaining original game disks is game of pure chance as data on floppy disks deceases within a few decades. Also, checking copy protected disks for read errors is impossible because copy protection itself often makes use of intended read errors. Furthermore, the floppy disk medium itself consists of circular data tracks with no definite starting point. You have to define one yourself. The choice will influence how fast a game will load in an emulator. Also, because the disk drive motor is not 100% accurate when switching from one track to the next the track layout may desync a little, changing timing a little further. In contrast, all cracked games use only a few simple file formats, either PRG for one-file games (which basically contain the contents of a contiguous piece of memory) or one or more D64 files for multi-file games (which resemble the standard disk data layout). Using cracked games, however, is in violation of tasvideos' rules. Most cracked games contain an intro prepended by the cracker (which can easily be skipped), but the largest problems are the following: * some cracked games offer cheats (of course with the option to play without cheats) * for games that load data from disk the removal of copy protection often leads crackers to change the way data is stored and loaded, thus causing timing differences to the original * some crackers even fix bugs in the cracked games (or do major structural changes to make cartridge games playable without cartridge); I've also seen cases of code being altered just to prepare cheats so the pure presence of built-in cheat options may change game behaviour a little even if cheats are not used at all * there are bad cracks (i.e. gameplay itself altered, usually game malfunctioning sooner or later), either because the crackers themselves messed it up or because the game's files were damaged later on. For my C64 TASes I've collected as many versions as I could get and compared them to see what's different and for what reason and to construct a game snapshot of just where control enters the game itself. This is of course not free of problems as it is basically starting a game from a prepared savestate but IMHO that's the best way available for single-file games not available on cartridge. Unfortunately this does not work for multi-file games. I've also modified VICE a bit to handle speed running better, most notably frame advance. Unfortunately the game recording system of VICE is very unreliable and corrupted my work in progress many times, forcing me to keep lots of backups. While VICE is open source and therefore customizable in theory in practice this is very hard due to the IMO nasty coding style; unfortunately I was unable to change the recording system to a more reliable one as seen in many console emulators.
Joined: 10/30/2006
Posts: 28
Kabuto wrote:
Using cracked games, however, is in violation of tasvideos' rules. Most cracked games contain an intro prepended by the cracker (which can easily be skipped), but the largest problems are the following: * some cracked games offer cheats (of course with the option to play without cheats) * for games that load data from disk the removal of copy protection often leads crackers to change the way data is stored and loaded, thus causing timing differences to the original * some crackers even fix bugs in the cracked games (or do major structural changes to make cartridge games playable without cartridge); I've also seen cases of code being altered just to prepare cheats so the pure presence of built-in cheat options may change game behaviour a little even if cheats are not used at all * there are bad cracks (i.e. gameplay itself altered, usually game malfunctioning sooner or later), either because the crackers themselves messed it up or because the game's files were damaged later on.
I hope I can help. You can find some original romimages in the net. www.c64games.de is a good portal which hosted some original images without hacks or cracker modifikations. Even in the case there is no originalrom the cracks from the group "Remember" are a really good source for qualitycracks. I use them most for my C64-Longplayprojekt. http://www.bitte8bit.de/newremember/htdocs/credits.php
Kabuto wrote:
I've also modified VICE a bit to handle speed running better, most notably frame advance. Unfortunately the game recording system of VICE is very unreliable and corrupted my work in progress many times, forcing me to keep lots of backups.
This was a problem with the old WinVice versions. Meanwhile the recordoption works very good. I haven`t big problems since the new version. In the case you need an tutorial for C64 movies you can visit my site. If you want and give me the credits you can use the tutorial for this site too. http://www.c64-longplays.de/tutorial.html
Player (105)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 22
Monty Mole wrote:
I hope I can help. You can find some original romimages in the net. www.c64games.de is a good portal which hosted some original images without hacks or cracker modifikations.
Did you use "hosted" intentionally, i.e. there are no longer original images? I've taken a look there and the games there seem to be mosty unknown and mostly cracked.
Monty Mole wrote:
Even in the case there is no originalrom the cracks from the group "Remember" are a really good source for qualitycracks.
Yes I know. But in the case of Cauldron 2 they modified the game code even in the case that none of the builtin trainers (cheats) is used. While this shouldn't affect casual players this changes the timing of the game code a little and this matters for TAS as Cauldron 2 is programmed a bit sloppily and due to that collision checks return an incorrect result sometimes, depending on timing. Thus recorded gameplay is likely to desync if the game version is exchanged with another not containing these changes. To see what I mean start Cauldron 2, go into one of the 2 rooms at ground level with a movable platform and let the pumpkin bounce. You'll see it changing its bounce height randomly. This is because they covered the chain below the platform with black sprites and as these overlap the chain a collision interrupt is triggered every raster line. Whenever a collision happens the code reads (and thus clears) the collision flags twice but only uses the first read's result. So as a result when the collision of pumpkin with the ground happens just in between these two reads that collision can get lost and the pumpkin will penetrate the ground a little further, causing the game to think the pumpkin fell a little further and thus making it bounce higher.
Monty Mole wrote:
I use them most for my C64-Longplayprojekt. http://www.bitte8bit.de/newremember/htdocs/credits.php
What about making a TAS section there? Regular C64 speedruns could in theory get accepted on speeddemosarchive.com, but C64 TAS won't be accepted by TASVideos ("Movies for any other systems aren't accepted.") and this is unlikely to change due to little interest in this platform here and problems mentioned previously. What do you think about adding a C64 TAS section to your longplay project?
Joined: 10/30/2006
Posts: 28
Kabuto wrote:
What do you think about adding a C64 TAS section to your longplay project?
I think a speedrun section for the C64-Site would be pointless. The idea behind this project is to offer viewers which aren`t non-64 related or don`t know a game the old C64 games. A speedrun is interesing to watch in the case you knoe the game self. But I think for viewers who don`t know a game a speedrun is pointless `cause you don`t see much from a game. I have not really many users who made own longplays so I think no one would have the motivation to make a speedrun when even the work for a longplay is to hard for most of the people.