Wow, a SDA’s runner is here. Nice to meet you.
I know you. I’ve been lurking your thread on SDA. I haven’t registered SDA. I accidentally have your smvs(It is not downloadable now). It’s very useful. Thanks.
RaneofSoTN wrote:
Also, there is talk of a glitch for double hitters where you attack(hold) attack which causes a quad swing by abusing the AUTO attack script to enable then disable.
I made a smv about it. Here. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1932498791/Seiken3%20%28J%29%20AT.smv
In this movie I made Lise pull the glitch. This may be a TAS only trick for it is a bit difficult by hand. This movie is identical with a trangix’s wip. Mine is slower.
I’ll make a smv with the glitch by using L/R next.
Lot's of helpful stuff - yay!^^
About re-record count: I often make a back-up of the .smv file after I have completed some stuff (bosses/rooms, especially lvl-up manipulations) and then try to improve it; this often leads to a couple hundreds of re-records going missing when the first/early try seems to be favorable (can be either time, health or exp-wise).
And thanks for the site - though I can't read japanese and translators are... well, translators.
About the moon coin idea - sure it would work; cast any necessary stat-ups/downs, switch p2 off, p1 -> Riese, video end; I thought the ending required a bit of input, but that's not the case. Although it will be strange to have the game go on so much longer; 10-20 mins w/out input?
Fairy: I tried talking with less NPCs, but didn't work, the other TAS has the same, so I guess it is that way.
@RaneofSoTN - I know your run; I've watched it a few times and lurked a bit around the discussion for it; so I feel honored for you showing up here.
Gorva - I wanted to go either w/out throwing items or replace light coins (~300 frames) with darts (~110 frames) by Hawk; I'm testing that right now.
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praetarius3 wrote:
About the moon coin idea - sure it would work; cast any necessary stat-ups/downs, switch p2 off, p1 -> Riese, video end; I thought the ending required a bit of input, but that's not the case. Although it will be strange to have the game go on so much longer; 10-20 mins w/out input?
I should clarify this; the Moon Coin is a separate item altogether. It casts Lunatic, which drops an enemies' max HP by 20% (which in the case of the final bosses is about 10000 damage). It may work on Bigieu too, but I can't be sure as she might be immune to Moon elemental stuff. It's also possible to glitch the Archdemon so that the fight ends after the first form rather than moving to the second, although I don't know the method.
Oh and I missed this:
praetarius3 wrote:
The plan was to fight enough so that I can class change right after I have gotten both water and fire spirit - as in after bill&ben and 3x golems.
Lv20+ at gildervine would be useful.
The grind to reach Lv18 by that stage in a TAS would be incredibly prohibitive, even if you fight every enemy on the way to the fire crystal. The game just doesn't give you enough exp, and really it's not like Glidervine is that hard anyway.
Um yeah, wrong item. Demon Wolf Soul, or maybe 2 Carmilla Claws, since one character obviously won't attack anyway, and the seed for the soul would require visiting an Inn.
Ok, I tested the deal with gorva - darts don't work; I threw 9 darts and 3 axes at him, they simply don't reach the needed total damage. I split a video the moment where he moves upwards; if I do nothing he only uses his ghost rush and comes down shortly afterwards (3277 frames total from fight start until he appears down again), in the other one I throw a lot of items at him, the added damage is low, and he actually adds two castings of black curse before ghost rush (he appears down at 7735 frame); the part up to him moving upwards is exactly the same each time. Still need to test with light coins.
Killing stuff - it's not only about the exp but about money as well; weapons don't get cheaper and I'll have to make a second trip to Byzel after leaving the mana land, the first time around there is simply not enough money for everything.
Class changing at the moon mana stone would be possible too, since I have to "speak" to it anyway; in the Mana Land... I think I would have to make a small detour? Not sure.
I had a few choices in my own run. I originally (which turned out to be at about 6:30ish) class changed at lugar. It felt more "natural" and i was still ~20ish for gildervine easy.
This second better attempt I said the last possible chance to class change is at the Mana holy land. There isn't much of a detour necessary to do anything. If you do it proper you have to skip Lise's weapon for gildervine in a by hand run (its near impossible to readily kill things). You can have better gold/exp to make this not a problem (I was only a few hundred luc short. NP for you I'm sure). So its possible to follow what I did and get a class change after lugar... with a small or little amount of farming. You want to get moon coins anyway... (gives lee way, and maybe get multiple, though outside of Archdemon using them would be tricky).
Nothing is immune to lunatic/deadly weapon that i've found. So Moon coin is instant 1/5 hp + damage.
My run right now at the mana holy land class changes there cause it has a few tight circle where i can do 4 fights against lv27 rabillions and Rabite kings (... yeah) where I walk away with ~2k exp in less than 2 minutes. And more luc than that. (Look it up Rabite type enemies are some of the better exp/luc ratios. and are easier to kill).
Also, what is your god beast order going to be? Cause that is something that will be hard to figure out. I dont know if you are going to need to abuse Kevin's atk up glitch (which i'm sure you know about) everytime and as such, might need a different one from what could be a normal route.
Mine is going to be: Moon, Wind, Light, Earth, Wood, Ice, Fire (Ice / Fire is a preference thing).
This should put you (if you followed me) with defence down by Wind (Moon shouldn't need it, and your right by the damn god beast anyway for my story), and light is at the "best spot" otherwise cause Wind gets 4x hp boost per delay. So it might be a natural first for you, then moon. To get rid of high hp or non-exploitable enemies.
Joined: 5/30/2009
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praetarius3 wrote:
in the Mana Land... I think I would have to make a small detour? Not sure.
I'm pretty certain the goddess statues are directly on the path to the tree. As for money, you may be able to get off easier in a TAS by buying less armour and healing items, and manipulating a lot of Gold Bullettes. Beyond that, Dangaard drops like 20000 Luc for some reason, which is enough to outfit everyone with new gear.
I also came up with a strategy for burning through the GB's really quickly, but it was a bit impractical for a real speedrun. Assuming you're aware of the glitch that lets Kevin max out his attack by transforming and then calling Flammie repeatedly, it's possible to glitch him only once and then keep max attack for about 4 or 5 GB's in a row by denying him the chance to level up by calling Flammie immediately after every battle is completed (they mostly dump you back at the start of the area). This sets him to "0 exp to level up", and he will (hopefully) remain this way every time he gains exp as long as Flammie is called right away. I say 4 or 5 because that's how many areas have no mandatory enemy fights; otherwise, if you gain a level on the way to a GB, Kevin will lose his glitch'd power. This would mean fighting a bunch of GBs at Lv18 or so, but I've managed it so it can't be that hard :D
4 to 5? wow, I thought 2 or even 3 would be a lot with each glitch.
Well, after these 4-5 I can let him lvl up, re-glitch and then maybe get the other 2-3.
But first things first: I got all variations for Gorva down equally sloppy:
9 darts, 3 axes, no mind up, agility 9 -> over 8k frames, still 1k hp left
9 light coins, no mind up, spirit 9 -> 8,1k frames
9 light coins, with mind up, spirit 9 -> 7,5k frames
9 darts, mind up, 12 agility -> 7,5k frames
just waiting while gorva is up -> 4,8k frames (same time I otherwise use the 7th coin!)
in all cases I used Kevin + Hawk, with active attack ups, lv 13, no healing was used.
no coins:
Link to video
coin spam
Link to video
note: Kevin had higher spirit than any of the 3 characters could have at this point, so I guess the result is even more in favor for waiting.
This should put you (if you followed me) with defence down by Wind (Moon shouldn't need it, ...
Hmm, I thought the Moon didn’t have any weakness, so the diffence down is necessary. Why do you think so?
About GBs, here is my tips:
-Lady Bee at Lamp Flower Woods drops Bee's Eye, which is substituted for diffence down, though it will probably be slower.
-If you beat the Wind first, you get 22664 luc. If you beat him last, you get 31688 luc. The difference is about 10000 luc. Of course, his HP is high so you should calculate the money you need and beat him earlier. On the other hand, the Wind one is relatively easy one though he is not easier than the Fire one, so you won’t have difficulty beating him later.
-The Light should be third or later, if you get a Papa Pot's Claw.
-Light, Ice and Fire have mandatory fights, IIRC. You have to defeat Papa Pot at the Light.
-At the Ice and the Fire, Sword Master is annoying for he uses a Sabre at the beginning. You have to manage so that he can’t appear.
-If you continue evading from a tentacle at the Wood one, they don’t use magic while the character evading can’t attack.
-When a character is killed on the “0 exp to level up” condition, you gain a level.
-I heard Kevin didn’t lose his glitch'd power on condition that he was wolf form during a battle when you gain a level, though I have not checked it.
About Gorva's test: Great!
Almost all the bosses have their own attack when their HP becomes 1/4 of their max HP, such as FMH’s Heal Light, Gorva’s all-ranged Evil Gate. If you use light coins in a row and you make his HP 0, you can skip the attack. This might be a bit difficult and could sometimes be slower.
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I say 4 or 5 because there are no mandatory fights on the way to Dolan, but after you beat him you only get dumped outside the tower and Flammie can't be called from there. IIRC it's like this:
Dangaard/Xan Bie/Mispolm/Land Umber/Dolan: No mandatory fights
Lightgazer: One mandatory fight
Fiegmund: A bunch
Lightgazer and Fiegmund's areas are also prime places for getting Papa Poto's Claws :D As for Demon's Claws, I'm not sure how many you'll have a chance to get, but they could be more useful for Lightgazer than the FMH re-fight.
I made some smvs with tricks.
the glitch with L/R When you play this movie, check 0x7FE0F2,2u Gorva's HP. It's weird at last.
weapon cancelLvl2_techx2
I'll explain later. Please look input-display carefully.
Ok, tech lv2/3 x2 is just normal attack that doesn't connect, then press and hold B at end of animation.
Weapon cancel.... hold A and direction when switching modes - seriously, so simply... I should have thought of that.
Double normal attack; attack (normal, tech, w/ever), hold A to get auto attack mode, when it then attacks release A to switch back to normal (should be very early during the attack animation), then press A again at the end, repeat.
Gorva... has just exactly the same luxury then our characters; while you are casting you can't die, only afterwards.
I sense a pattern here, all build upon the auto attack thing.
This should put you (if you followed me) with defence down by Wind (Moon shouldn't need it, ...
Hmm, I thought the Moon didn’t have any weakness, so the diffence down is necessary. Why do you think so?
The defence down shouldn't affect the battle too much if Kevin is properly glitched at the head. With 493 atk (wolf + boost, max attack) Kevin should wreck the god beasts. Dolan goes first BECAUSE of the lack of things to throw at him. Meaning he is weaker, HP is as low as it gets (along with defense, though i dont think defence changes much). Also his tower is easier to jump right to (for me).
Defence down isn't necessary when your party is still weak and can't capitalize on it. Duran/hawk can't get a new sword until after gb1 (crap D= ) and Lise might be too unworth it to equip. Meaning at least 80% of your damage is from Kevin glitched. The def down on 493 atk power comparative to those bosses is ~30 damage. Thats about.. 10% of what he would be hitting. So atkframes/10 is how many you save per set of 2 swings. Defence down might not be worth it.
The rest it pays off cause duran/hawk and lise can help out and lower the damage quotient of Kevin. Especially for hawk. But in a speed run game like this... Its unlikely (without excess grinding) that duran/hawk will be hurting Dolan for anything worth defence downing for.
Made some tests with Kevin's atk glitch.
Link to video
Seems like it's entirely possible to max his atk only once and then keep it through the rest of the game; flammie in case it comes after boss, timing lvl ups so they come in rooms where at least 1 enemy can be left while his lvl-up screen comes up,...
I tried to get this glitch way way earlier; my idea was to use the hammer on Kevin so he keeps his wolfform during screen transition and then hammer a few times more to keep him from changing until I reach with a different character a yellow spring (the things that shoot you upwards so you can see the map); but the game automatically halts, forces Kevin to change back and only then it catapults me upwards...
Even if it had worked, getting from 51 (8 str with weapon from rolante, right after getting the hammer) up to 100 would take 6 repititions alone (roughly 10 mins).
Moin coins:
opening menu+using coin ~450 frames
obtaining one from chest 400+ frames
Glitched kevin can do more damage in this time on everyone but the last two bosses (before those max hp is about 16k ish, bigieu 40k and archdemon 53-54k),
so 1-2 coins
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praetarius3 wrote:
Seems like it's entirely possible to max his atk only once and then keep it through the rest of the game; flammie in case it comes after boss, timing lvl ups so they come in rooms where at least 1 enemy can be left while his lvl-up screen comes up,...
Wow. That would be pretty crazy to watch. What about day/night issues though? At the very least you should run into a day cycle in the Cave of Darkness.
I made another smv. I showed how to be invincible against physical attacks by using L/R.
It works until the invincible character uses lvl1 tech again but you can repeat this trick. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work for wolf form of Kevin.
That’s all what is important written on the Japanese site I linked in my past post, I think. There are other techniques but I don’t think them useful.
Weapon cancel or skipping weapon drawing animation means skipping these two animations.
The left happens when you begin a fight and the right happens when you end or run away a fight. This is originally discovered by trangix. My inputs may be excess and may not be optimal. I think A-button and null input plays an important role.
Double normal attacks: There are extra frames so you don’t have to follow my inputs strictly. And there is the other way to pull double normal attacks by using L/R instead of holding A.
praetarius3 wrote:
Gorva... has just exactly the same luxury then our characters; while you are casting you can't die, only afterwards.
Yeah, so I think that you can’t avoid a magic or a special attack if it is reserved but you can avoid it if it is not reserved.
I also showed three other techniques in my Gorva smv.
First look Kevin at the beginning of the fight. I was able to skip the weapon drawing animation as trangix did. The way is inputting (AB), null and its repeat. These inputs have to be exactly done. If you would not like to swing, you have to stop these inputs accurately. (It isn’t showed in that smv.) This trick is useful for holding A and direction is probably slower at times and it doesn’t work at the beginning of boss battles.
Second Kevin continues attacking by using L/R.
Last Kevin uses his lvl1 tech twice in a row with L/R.
BTW, autofire is useful contrary to my thought. When you load a savestate, you switch odd/even frames to even/odd frames which you’d like to input the buttons. This enables you to optimize the movie with only one rerecording, though some might dislike autofire.
@RaneofSoTN: Oh I see. The defence of the GBs is roughly 130-180 and defence down reduces only 1/3 1/5 of their defence. You are right.
praetarius3 wrote:
Made some tests with Kevin's atk glitch...
Good, you checked what I wrote, right.
neo_omegon wrote:
-I heard Kevin didn’t lose his glitch'd power on condition that he was wolf form during a battle when you gain a level.
When you buy equipments, Kevin loses his glitched power. So the last timing you can buy equipments is before Sand Fortress Navarre. It might be hard to get through with lower defence.
Archdemon: Using Moon Sabre at the final battle is simple wild ass guess. It will probably be bad with low level.
Archdemon changes his weakness. It’s necessary to be researched.
Ah, I just had an idea. Is it possible to beat him by the glitch which is possible to Black Rabite? (Darkness Coin then hit.) He may absorb some element and his max HP is 53449. You only have to give 65536 - 53449 = 12087 damage to defeat him. Maybe it’s crappy and cheaper way and I don’t strongly recommend.
Archdemon:
He is lv 50 and can cast death spell, I will in no way have lv 51+ so it's instant death, he only needs two of those to win.
Earth form -> stone cloud, same even lvl-independant.
Then his moon form just loves to cast this gas attack that shrinks everyone; at 1 dmg they can't outheal him anymore.
Apart from that Lise is basically a timer here, once she dies Hawk will be the controlled one and Kevin would fight alone; at this lvl Lise and Hawk will probably drop like flies. Kevin won't be a problem, he should be able to keep himself alive easily.
That's the first half of it, when he reaches ~50% he "dies" and gets more serious.
At one point or the other he will cast demon breath, which cuts magic defense seriously down; any of his other tricks deal with that ~580 damage; I guess there is the point no-input will definitly fail.
Overflow-death is right out impossible; during first form the sabers of his current element still deal normal damage, spells/items with his element get re-directed to us. In the second form he absorbs some sabers, but those deal dmg at the same time, so he gains/loses 0hp.
Kevin:
I can't so much as even look at equip for him, right, but the others are ok.
I do think that ending input early by using moon saber is an amusing and worthwhile idea. It'd also show a nice contrast between the TAS-enabled rapid attacking and what you usually get from the AI. You just won't be able to use it right at the start of the fight, is all.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Hello! I try making this game's TAS, too.
This is my WIP and Lua Script. Lua script should change the function 'DrawDuran' 0x80 →0x82 if you watch Hawk's info.
I hope it will help your TAS making.
(Sorry, I'm not good at English.)
Wow, the other TASer of SD3 from nicovideo has come here. Welcome to TASVideos.
Thank you for providing a script and a wip. I can’t skip drawing weapon animation by the way I wrote in my past post. But now I can sleep with an easy mind.
Well, hello trangix!
Thanks for the WIP and lua script - will provide some more insight.
I'm curious as for why you took Duran.
Apart from that - I'm curious to see yours finished.
As for weapon draw - L/R + direction, is currently my favorite.
The reason why I choose Duran is
- he learn 4 Sabre Spell at Lv.22/dark
- his normal attack has power and long range
- his attack is once . it's important for getting AUTO mode quickly
This game has a glitch to get AUTO mode quickly.
If you hold A and direction key during the map changing, the charactor attack first, then become AUTO mode immediately.
it's useful when the enemy exist far from the charactors.
but Kevin and Hawk takes long time to finish the attack motion, this glitch seems not to be effective for them.(slower than weapon cancel then move)
so I took Riesz , Kevin , Duran. but I think your choise is better.
I thought Hawk and Kevin in the same party causes many 'miss!' (attacks in the same time become 'miss!' both of them), but your TAS proved it's wrong.
By the way, I want to know how to use the glitch that get strength every level and infinity attack you use in JewelEater's battle.
The left happens when you begin a fight and the right happens when you end or run away a fight. This is originally discovered by trangix. My inputs may be excess and may not be optimal. I think A-button and null input plays an important role.
Double normal attacks: There are extra frames so you don’t have to follow my inputs strictly. And there is the other way to pull double normal attacks by using L/R instead of holding A.
