Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
FODA wrote:
Warp: because we're gaining a lot of ground and threatening nate's supremacy
So they feel threatened because we are getting so much popularity? Of course I can't say anything about the amount of people who have stopped watching regular speedruns because of this site, but I would be quite surprised if the popularity of regular speedruns would have dropped in any significant way. There might, of course, be some individual exceptions, some strange person who says that he now finds regular speedruns boring, but my bet is that even if such people exist they are a really, really small minority. Feeling threatened is quite unfounded, IMO.
Editor, Expert player (2078)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
I noticed how the subtitles were consistently being ripped from the .avi. We should start putting subtitles in the middle of the movie, like in Tetrisphere.
KennyMan666
He/Him
Joined: 8/24/2005
Posts: 375
Location: Göteboj
Walker Boh wrote:
Bisqwit wrote:
I see no problem. I am not going to change anything.
I totally agree too. I haven't followed this discussion much lately, but this thread is certainly enough. Why should TAS-ers change everything for _one_ community? I fail to understand that logic.
It's because you're looking at it from the wrong perspective (and I understand why that is). The proposed change is not meant for "one community". Quite the opposite - it is meant for all the people who aren't in the speedunning or TAS community, to make the people who know nothing about TAS realize how the video they watch was made. Not in real time and using a "rewind" function. Because someone that is not in any of the communities, and therefore has a knowledge about such terms, will not understand that "Tool-Assisted Speedrun" means "This was not played in real time and savestates/rerecording were used in the making of it". I do not complain about the term, I think it's fine (though I liked "Optimal gameplay demo"). I never really liked nate's proposed solution to it, because as it has been said "cheated" sounds so negative, but I understand how he thinks. I'm not really sure what to think about the suggested intro either - especially since it seemingly already happens that the intro you have now is stripped from the video when it's posted elsewhere. There will never be a solution that both parties are completely satisfied with in this matter, but I suggest that the information is given in the gameplay portion of the video and not before it. Something like a subtitle starting to roll on the bottom when the first stage (or equivalent, the point is that it should appear while there's actual gameplay and not as an intro so it can't be removed that easily) of the game starts, "This is a optimal gameplay demonstration (or something along those lines). It was played using slowdown, savestates and rerecording. See http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html for more details." I know that there already is a message that is usually being displayed after the "TAS intro", but it is (apparently) not enough. The number of rerecords and the information that it is a "tool-assisted recording" will not mean much to the average internet Joe, and I am quite convinced that most of them will not visit the Why and How page and learn about it. That is why I think including the basic meaning, a short explanation of it to be a better idea. Well, those are my two cents on the matter. I'd argue for that something along the same lines is done for console runs if your point is why only you should have to do this...
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi. "I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
I don't see why the speedruns couldn't contain a message saying something along the lines of: "This is an unassisted recording, no slowdowns or freeze save rerecordings were used in the making of this movie. See www.speeddemosarchive.com* for more information on this matter." If you see this as a problem, why don't You do something about it? *or something like that.
KennyMan666 wrote:
"This was not played in real time and savestates/rerecording were used in the making of it".
Average Internet Joe probably don't know what playing in real-time or re-recordings are, and probably wont give a shit either. He/she wants to see a movie, not find out how the movie was made. Writing "This movie was made playing on the original video game console and captured using a VCR/DVD recorder." in the speedrun movies would make much more sense than writing "This movie was made using tools through a video game emulator with a rom image dumped from a cartridge onto a computer harddrive."
Spacecow
He/Him
Joined: 6/21/2004
Posts: 247
Location: New Hampshire
Using "demo" in the name could potentially make things messy since Speed Demos Archive already uses it, even though it might be a more apt name than "speedrun" and all the connotations that carries with it. As for the AVIs, would there be any merit to just putting in a watermark at the bottom or in the corner that has, say, the author, # of rerecords (labelled as such), and "TASvideos.org" throughout the duration of the movie, in addition to the disclaimers at the beginning? Sorry if this has been proposed to a degree already, I've only skimmed the debate so far.
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
Graveworm wrote:
Writing "This movie was made playing on the original video game console and captured using a VCR/DVD recorder." in the speedrun movies would make much more sense than writing "This movie was made using tools through a video game emulator with a rom image dumped from a cartridge onto a computer harddrive."
uhm, no, since the "problem" (which i don't agree exists) arises when the person is watching a tas, not a speed run.
Joined: 12/13/2005
Posts: 12
I can't really see anything to add to the debate on this end, except that I implore you guys not to see nate's words as representative of the speedrunning community as a whole. He has few supporters in this; I have only seen two or three people over there actually agree with him. I view his vision of the sites (and his as the superior one etc etc) to be outrageously arrogant and I initially opposed his posting of the recent thread on the m2k2 forum simply because it makes the entirety of m2k2sda look bad. He'll say he represents the sites, but in this instance, he does not. His views are generally regarded as misguided at the very least by the populace over there. Our community has no place attempting to dictate any community other than ours, so please know that nate's alone here.
Kaz
Former player
Joined: 12/2/2005
Posts: 149
The only "so called" problem remaining is nate and his yesmen's irrational hatred of TAS. The disclaimer and link are more than enough. It's not like TAS are still a new and fairly unknown thing. Basically only nate & his buddies and twin galaxies have a problem with TAS. Every net user I am acquainted with (IRL or on the net) that are remotely interesting in videogaming know the difference between TAS and speedruns. The few that don't are quickly educated on the subject. There are no problem other than an misguided belief held by some speedrunners that TAS are stealing their thunder. To them I say try keeping your ego in check. If you're in it for the glory, perhaps you should find a new hobby.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I have a lot of respect for both the Speed Demos Archive and the Metroid2002 communities, but its members need to realize that they are currently in no position to make suggestions for the tool-assisted community. Let me explain this. First of all, there's the fact that unassisted speedrun communities have always had members that have acted awful towards users of tool-assisted speedrun communities. This has been established time and again, and there are still occasionally comments on forums that are insulting to TAS community members. Unassisted communities have always made the best of efforts to try and separate the two, as have the tool-assisted run communities. Both for the same reason: to protect the fame of the unassisted runs. In the old days, this was also done by TAS communities because its leaders were former speedrunners or otherwise very closely related to unassisted speedrun communities (I'm referring to Yonatan Donner, of course). But these days, this is different. Bisqwit makes every attempt to separate our movies from the rest, going as far as putting stamps on every single movie released on this site, but not necessarily for the reason of protecting unassisted runs. Bisqwit just wants to make sure that people realize how these movies were made rather than pointing a finger at a different community and saying "Look, those guys can do it without save states and slowdowns. Go there if you want to see real skill." People from the unassisted communities seem to feel like they do not get enough honors for their work. Since, afterall, what if one might see a tool-assisted speedrun and think it's real? For that reason, the unassisted community seems to want to bizarrely drop all ties to tool-assisted communities and refer to them as "those guys who cheat". Which brings me to point two: there's no doubt about the fact that tool-assisted speedrunners do not "cheat". Unassisted community members should cease bringing it up. There is no argument for that claim's validity. Cheating only occurs when someone uses tools to assist his speedrun which is to be submitted to SDA to compare with the currently existing records. Cheating does not occur when a tool-assisted speedrun movie is made for this site. Still the unassisted communities feel that it would be appropriate to mention that tool-assisted runners are "cheaters". This, by the above reasoning, would imply that they are people who submit these movies with the intent of having them be comparable to the unassisted records! Of course, this is far from true. So why do members from the unassisted community want the tool-assisted runners to label their runs as "cheated runs"? Why add this negative connotation which so many people would disprove of? The answer is that because when someone who does not know anything about speedrunning would watch the movie and exclaim: "Hey, that guy is cheating! That's not cool. I'm going to watch the fair and square run instead." The request for tool-assisted speedrunners to (inaccurately) label their movies as "cheated runs" is nothing but a means of the unassisted runners to, as stated, gain more fame for their work while tool-assisted speedrunners are cast aside and ignored. As for point three: even though this is all relatively common knowledge, tool-assisted speedrunners have always remained relatively sober. Although when the request was made to rename these runs to "cyborg runs", the only reaction from the tool-assisted community was disbelief and anger, there have still been made efforts to help people discern unassisted speedruns from the tool-assisted ones. As said, all movies on this site have a visible stamp at the beginning that states how it was made using "tools" and that one may read more on the website. On the website itself, there are plenty of references to the "Why and How" page, both at the top of the front page as well as in some movie descriptions. And yet, the unassisted community keeps coming back for more, with increasingly unwanted requests. The unassisted community has done a lousy job of giving even the most basic of credit to tool-assisted runners. In an article on MTV News titled "Gamers Divided Over Freakish Feats Achieved With Tool-Assisted Speed Runs", Nolan exclaimed: "My basic thought is 'don't like them, haven't made them, don't watch them,' " This type of cold attitude is seen as unwarranted and unreasonable by members of the tool-assisted community while apparently the leaders of the unassisted speedrun sites seem to disagree. Since they speak like this, one would wonder why they are still asking this community to do them favors; the only party that may benefit from the tool-assisted community exclaiming that their runs are "cheated" are the unassisted runners, since the people viewing the tool-assisted runs would now see a strong message that tells them there is "something wrong" with this movie for which he should reconsider watching it. And all in all, the only way the unassisted communities appear to be making a distinguishment between the two communities other than attempting to give their name a negative association, are a few lines of text in site documentation that states that "the runs on this site are not made with save states". Not one single time have I ever seen a document on a larger speedrun site that apologizes for the sometimes offensive and aggressive statements that unassisted speedrunners seem to make. Never have I seen one of the leaders of the unassisted communities speak about how even though the unassisted runners may disagree with what we do, there is not a need to go overboard in mentioning that this is so. I have also never seen any of the pages on both Speed Demos Archive or Metroid2002 give a good, clear and accurate description of tool-assisted speedruns, pointing to the site to let people know that there is also a subset of speedrunning in which things are done a little differently. All the references to tool-assisted speedrunning are negative. Perhaps arrogant. Perhaps disagreeable. Perhaps unaccurate. And yet, we are expected to change our ways to suit their needs. In a nutshell: the tool-assisted community currently sees no room to give in to unassisted communities even more by giving inaccurate labels to its movies, partially because this would cause incorrect statements to be made about our movies by ourselves (which would be contradictory with both our philosophy and all of our written documents), and partially because it feels like it is unjustly required to do all of the work to help people realize that these movies are different from unassisted movies. The people who are making these requests are to realize what they are asking us to do and think about whether it would be fair to us. This is not fair. It will not be fair until the unassisted community ceases to act as though we are stealing their prominence. This is what I feel. I'm sure that the majority of this community feels the same way. Please consider what I've said.
KennyMan666
He/Him
Joined: 8/24/2005
Posts: 375
Location: Göteboj
(I'm not sure why I'm posting this since it won't add anything to the debate, but...)
I don't see why the speedruns couldn't contain a message saying something along the lines of: "This is an unassisted recording, no slowdowns or freeze save rerecordings were used in the making of this movie. See www.speeddemosarchive.com* for more information on this matter."
"This is a non-assisted speedrun. It was played and recorded in real time on a console/computer. See http://speeddemosarchive.com/faq.html for more details." "This is a tool-assisted speedrun. It was played and recorded using slowdown, savestates and rerecording on an emulator. See http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html for more details." I also agree fully with what Saber said, nate has not done his homework about people's opinions on this.
Det man inte har i begåvning får man ta ut i energi. "I think I need to get to Snoop Dogg's level of high to be able to research this post." -Samsara Read my fanfic, One Piece: Pure Corruption
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
I did notice on some TAS AVIs that the disclaimer and other info was displayed for far too short a duration. I know there's no need to insult the viewer's intelligence with long intros, but I can't read 6 lines of text in 1 second. Anything that is only displayed for 1 or 2 seconds near the start of the movie is likely to not even be noticed. Besides that... has "tool-assisted speedrun" vs. "tool-assisted superplay" already been discussed? The image at the top of this very forum suggests that TAS stands for the latter. EDIT: Hmm, apparently it has. Something about it being a backronym is in the other thread.
Editor, Expert player (2078)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
nitsuja wrote:
I did notice on some TAS AVIs that the disclaimer and other info was displayed for far too short a duration. I know there's no need to insult the viewer's intelligence with long intros, but I can't read 6 lines of text in 1 second. Anything that is only displayed for 1 or 2 seconds near the start of the movie is likely to not even be noticed.
I agree. The disclaimers probably would be more noticeable if they were either longer, overlapped significant playing time, or were more descriptive, like:
KennyMan666 wrote:
"This is a tool-assisted speedrun. It was played and recorded using slowdown, savestates and rerecording on an emulator. See http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html for more details."
nitsuja wrote:
Besides that... has "tool-assisted speedrun" vs. "tool-assisted superplay" already been discussed?
I suggest not bringing it up again. Anyone can call it whichever way they feel.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
FractalFusion wrote:
I suggest not bringing it up again. Anyone can call it whichever way they feel.
I was only asking if it had been (and already edited my post). I was mainly thinking that the TASvideos forum image is possibly confusing if the S is not meant to stand for "superplay".
FractalFusion wrote:
The disclaimers probably would be more noticeable if they were either longer, overlapped significant playing time, or were more descriptive
I would just want them to be readable... I don't know if overlapping significant playing time is really necessary. Also, not that this is a terrible thing, but making them more descriptive further increases the amount of time they would have to be displayed for to be read, assuming they are meant to be read without requiring the movie to be paused.
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
TAS: * Most often plays a game from start to completion as quickly as possible. * Should be as entertaining as possible. Much of the entertainment comes from speed alone. Things that could be more entertaining are often avoided if they slow down completion time by more than a few frames. * Submissions slower than existing runs rarely, if ever, replace the existing run. Console runs: * Most often plays a game from start to completion as quickly as possible. * Should be as entertaining as possible. Much of the entertainment comes from speed alone. Things that could be more entertaining are often avoided if they slow down completion time significantly. * Submissions slower than existing runs rarely, if ever, replace the existing run. Both are speedruns, albeit fundamentally different in execution. Petitions to change either the meaning of TAS, or the name itself often remind me of the gay marriage / civil union debate. In the eyes of the court, they are exactly the same. Changing the name is merely an appeasement to a perceived majority, and doesn't change its nature, or make it simply disappear. So much to that subject. I took the time to read through the entire topic on the m2k2 forums. Surprisingly (or perhaps not surprisingly) few members there agree entirely with the original post. This was perhaps the most inspiring I read:
MonsterERB wrote:
It is undisputed that some people have viewed a tool-assisted speedrun and, not knowing any better (or being too lazy to find out), have assumed it to be a console run. It's also quite probable that some people may have viewed a skillfully done console speedrun, and wondered whether it was tool-assisted or not, due to the lack of any marker or disclaimer. ... Hopefully we (meaning ALL of us, whether you're pro-console, pro-TAS, or neutral) can agree that any instance of such confusion is something better avoided. Anyone who takes the time to download a gaming video and watch it deserves to know how the video content was made. Was it a tool-assisted emulator run? Console run? Done with Gameshark/cheat codes? Using a cracked version of the game? Single-segment, or multi-segment? And so on. In my opinion, it would cost the console speedrunning community NOTHING to produce a splash screen or short video prologue stating, "This run was made in real-time on a Nintendo Gamecube console, using no cheat codes. The player attempted each segment of the run multiple times to achieve the fastest possible completion time. Thanks for watching." Whether or not console is majority, TAS is majority, or it's dead even... immaterial. If such a message helps avoid any confusion for a few speedrun viewers, then I say some sort of marker for console runs is a positive thing.
Definitely a step in the right direction, if avoiding confusion is the goal.
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
Active player (255)
Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 476
If people are too stupid to go look up what a TAS is, that's their problem. It shouldn't become everyone else's problem by making them watch a small video whenever they open a TAS movie. And, like Nach said, it makes the video file larger, which means wasted space and longer torrent downloads. I'd support the disclaimer being displayed for longer (and being more descriptive), though.
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcuV2JdaBYY]Streets of Rage 3 (2 players)[/url]
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
I still can't quite figure out how a person so full of hate can dare to say that he's able to give an objective view on the situation and propose good solutions. No amount of complex wording is going to hide that. Well, the "I rule, I'm the majority"-approach is new. Still not interested in discussion or changes on his side, it seems. He doesn't want the videos properly labeled, he want's them labeled in the most degrading and insulting way, he's clear about that.
Nate wrote:
the thing is that i don't care whether it's descriptive or not. i care about the reaction people have when they see it.
At least he claims to have given up on eradicating TASes now. Too bad, an attempt to eradicate the minority had been a good opportunity for Godwin's Law to kick in and end this stupidity once and for all.. I'm not going to read any more of his posts or the follow-up-discussion, it just makes me sick. I'll just put m2k2 on my filter now, none of my previous visits on their forum were productive or good for my mood in any way. Sorry Qlev for using your thread for venting. The idea about the explanation video isn't new (and apparently wasn't new when I suggested it either). Alas, no one has done one yet. I consider putting it at the beginning of each video as overkill though. I agree that we could make it easier for viewers to educate themselves about TAS's, and from my perception this community has always been open to constructive and not over-the-top suggestions. Changing the wording and length of the disclaimer text is probably an option. My suggestion had been something like this: "This is a tool-assisted recording. It has been done on an emulator, using slowdowns, savestates and other tools, to overcome limitations of human players like skill and reflex. To see how it was done, visit http://tasvideos.org/introduction/" Of course, we'd need the video first, and a page designed as an introduction for n00bs, not distracting with philosophical questions unimportant to the newcomer, like WhyAndHow does. I'd help with the page, but can't help on the video.
m00
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I'd be very careful about increasing the length of the disclaimer. To explain why, imagine a movie which has many of the proposals (serious or not) suggested between these two threads. -The movie has a short "this is how it's made" at the beginning -The movie also has a short disclaimer before the movie starts -The movie has a watermark -Every other frame says "FAKE!" or "CHEATED!" -Half-way through the movie there's a reminder that it is not a regular speedrun You'll see one of the biggest backlashes ever. People will be making and distributing their own versions of the runs without all the stuff and then the videos that people link to and pass around will have nothing indicating they're really a TAS! The current disclaimer, although short, is also very non-invasive, and the more invasive we try to make it the more encouraged other people will be to make versions without our markers. At what point are we no longer spinning our wheels in the mud and are sliding back down the hill? If people are already making versions of our runs with the disclaimer intentionally cut then I'd think *very* carefully about increasing the length since we're already apparently annoying somebody. That's my thought on that, anyways.
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
+subtitles that overlap gameplay (but do not obscure it) + subtitles closer to the beginning of the video than elsewhere + splashscreen at the beginning of the movie My current favorite wording is "This tool-assisted demo does not challenge any existing speed records. / It is a demonstration only; it was not played in real-time. / For more information, see Why&How." This would last 1 second per each of the 3 sections, which don't need to be next to each other. The author information, time, and number of rerecords would also be separate and somewhere at the beginning of the action. But that mgiht be voerdoing it?
primorial#soup wrote:
Petitions to change either the meaning of TAS, or the name itself often remind me of the gay marriage / civil union debate. In the eyes of the court, they are exactly the same.
Civil unions don't offer federal marriage benefits (in the US at least). What should rather be done is marriage itself be renamed 'civil union', leaving the word 'marriage' the sole right of religious institutions, who would then no longer care about such laws. But that's not what we're discussing.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Off topic: I thought 'marriage' was a term that means 'civil union through religion'. *shrug* On topic: This is the fault of speedrunning sites conditioning viewers in to thinking that all movies showing games being played quickly are done on console in real time. Silly, yes, but it's the same logic being used against nesvideos.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Zurreco wrote:
This is the fault of speedrunning sites conditioning viewers in to thinking that all movies showing games being played quickly are done on console in real time. Silly, yes, but it's the same logic being used against nesvideos.
Yes, that is a valid point. The severe lack of NPOV-style information concerning the nature and purposes of tool-assistance on the legit speedrunning sites is one of the main causes of the "TAS problem", as Nate calls it. BTW, I've just written a short post on that issue (link).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
No unassisted speedrunner has responded to my post yet. I wonder what they will say when they do. They can't possibly disagree with the fact that speedrunners just want to get people to watch their runs rather than ours for the sake of their renown. (Don't even get me started on the whole "we must protect the people" argument that says people need to be protected from the confusion that may arise from thinking tool-assisted speedruns were recorded in real time. That only and exclusively leads to the reason I mentioned.) I also wonder if any speedrunner will ever thank Bisqwit for making efforts to put ugly stamps on his videos to prove that they aren't unassisted runs.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Gigafrost wrote:
You'll see one of the biggest backlashes ever. People will be making and distributing their own versions of the runs without all the stuff and then the videos that people link to and pass around will have nothing indicating they're really a TAS! The current disclaimer, although short, is also very non-invasive, and the more invasive we try to make it the more encouraged other people will be to make versions without our markers. At what point are we no longer spinning our wheels in the mud and are sliding back down the hill?
PRECISELY the reason why I have tried to keep the video content as unmodified (from the emulator output) as possible.
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
About the video showing how TAS is done, that's really unpracticle. I've recorded a video of myself tasing and it's plain long, boring and doesn't show much. It's 30 minutes of the same game scene. That idea just wouldn't work.
Joined: 4/21/2006
Posts: 97
I think the way it is now is fine. Just have a short clip at the beginning of the video that points to this site for info. If people want to complain, let them. It's their loss.
Friendly neighborhood Christian: "Ah hell diddly ding dong crap!"
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I believe one big reason why this small minority of regular speedrunners have such a big prejudice against tool-assisted runs is because they have this misconception that tool-assistance makes it "too easy". The very suggestion of using the word "cheat", as well as repeatedly calling the TAS videos cheating, speaks of this. They feel it's "cheating" because they believe that tool-assistance makes it "too easy". The problem is that some of these people stubborningly refuse to get their facts right and refuse to admit even the possibility that TAS runs could be an acceptable alternative category of speedrunning. It's probably a question of pride: If someone has fought adamantly against tool-assistance for a long time, he feels he would make a fool of himself if he suddenly admitted that he was, at least partially, wrong. I believe that it would be a rather illuminating experience for these people to try to make a TAS of some existing run in this site to see if they can make it even close. For example megaman1 would be a rather illustrative example. Perhaps then they could see that it's not as easy as they think but requires tons of work (in some cases it might even require more work than an acceptable unassisted run, at least for an experienced runner). Of course this is just wishful thinking. If they are stubborn they will refuse to even try, and even if they tried, they would still not admit anything (but instead they would say something along the lines of "I got bored halfway through" or whatever).