Topic by maTO

Posted: 10/5/2009 8:58 AM

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maTO

Skilled player (1485)

Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland

You could end the level 3 frames faster if you had done it like in your previous WIP. In the 2nd level you can improve Flip's run at 4:13: When you make a jump you should whip the wheel once. Then run down and jumpwhip the wheel again to open the gate. Run under the gate and then jump left on top of it's spikes and you can reach the platform without grabbing.

Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)

Posted: 10/5/2009 8:20 PM

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ElectroSpecter

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Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

I'm pretty sure I'm standing in the same place in both WIPs, so I'm not sure how to save the three frames you're talking about maTO, unless positioning Jim isn't what I need to do to save them? Andy Asteroids: are there any tricks to this level? I'm assuming that Jim's position in the tube has no bearing on when he arrives at the end, as long as I'm holding A the entire time. Is this correct? Also, does hitting Psycrow at the beginning change anything?

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Posted: 10/5/2009 9:32 PM

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maTO

Skilled player (1485)

Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland

Well, I checked both of your WIPs several times and in the first one you stood up there much closer to the right side of the screen than in the second WIP. Asteroids: Nothing special here, AFAIK. Just don't collect more than 49 balls or you'll be slowed by a bonus.

Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)

Posted: 10/6/2009 1:00 AM

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upthorn

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

My personal opinion is that watching you deliberately miss orbs in Andy Asteroids would be more annoying than sitting through a bonus. Maybe you could get them all and call this 100%

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 10/9/2009 2:18 AM

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ElectroSpecter

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Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

@ Upthorn: I actually recorded the Andy Asteroids segment before you said that, so I recorded myself intentionally missing all the orbs (as well as "collecting" some asteroids). Collecting all of the orbs would satisfy myself as well, but at the same time I'm weighing that satisfaction against having to explain to people what a 100% run would entail (as I'm not really sure myself, considering I'd skip stuff like the snowman boss) and dealing with "well you could have just saved time by not collecting more than 49 orbs." Here's a WIP of (except for the boss) WHAT THE HECK?. I implemented that time-saver, maTO, and it looks nice. Some improvements come from using the downward slopes that Jim slides down to gain horizontal speed. Other improvements come from jumping to different ends of platforms that are a bit lower (I'm comparing to Flip's run primarily). The level segment is 200 frames (3.33 seconds) faster than Flip's run and 482 frames (8.03 seconds) faster than the published run. The boss fight isn't optimized by any means, and it isn't meant to be. I'm currently trying to manipulate Evil so that he doesn't lick himself or hesitate. It's possible, and quite easy to do since he changes his pattern when Jim simply moves a few frames right or left. Unfortunately, it's looking like walking to the right the entire time will manipulate Evil into optimalness, minimizing any potential entertainment (not that there's much to be had). Also: I've experimented with the SNES version. The graphics and music are much nicer (though I think the sound effects suck). While it has that exclusive glitch in What the Heck? (I can confirm it doesn't work in the Gen version, as it's super easy to pull off in the SNES), everything just seems much slower in general, from level splash screens to even the cow launch. The bosses are not as hard either. And the Genesis version has an extra level. It's a tough call, but I'll probably continue with the Genesis run. EDIT: Changed the WIP, was able to get under the first gate faster, and arrive at Evil with more health. Still ignore the boss fight.

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Posted: 10/10/2009 2:11 AM

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Dammit

Experienced player (574)

Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103

The fastest is going to be the SNES version, since it's missing the Intestinal Distress level. (It also has better colors.) But the best version now available for TASing is Sega CD. It has the Big Bruty level missing in the others (but not an additional Andy Asteroids), homing missiles, and the improved CDA music. Some new sections have been added to the Junkyard and Heck stages. (Snowman might not be skippable.) Plus if you finish on hard you get this. (Easy mode gets this.) There's a comparison between SNES and SegaCD here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/segacd/file/922262/43975 This doesn't leave a whole lot of reason to stick with the Genesis cart.

Posted: 10/10/2009 2:21 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Absolutely seconded. I didn'e see this topic being active due to my own inactivity, but I've always been a proponent of the Sega CD version if only for a massive increase in soundtrack quality (to the point that some of the tracks ended up in my "favorites" playlist).

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/10/2009 3:24 AM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

Hrm, so would this obsolete the current Gen run of EWJ? I have no experience with Sega CD...

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Posted: 10/10/2009 6:40 AM

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moozooh

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I don't see why not, it's for all purposes a better version (except where it's completely identical).

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/10/2009 7:43 AM

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upthorn

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Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

ElectroSpecter wrote:

@ Upthorn: I actually recorded the Andy Asteroids segment before you said that, so I recorded myself intentionally missing all the orbs (as well as "collecting" some asteroids). Collecting all of the orbs would satisfy myself as well, but at the same time I'm weighing that satisfaction against having to explain to people what a 100% run would entail (as I'm not really sure myself, considering I'd skip stuff like the snowman boss) and dealing with "well you could have just saved time by not collecting more than 49 orbs."

Err, yeah, actually "ignores delays caused by bonus effects" is the goal choice. combine with "speed/entertainment tradeoffs" and a short explanation in the submission and there should be no problem.

Here's a WIP of (except for the boss) WHAT THE HECK?. I implemented that time-saver, maTO, and it looks nice. Some improvements come from using the downward slopes that Jim slides down to gain horizontal speed. Other improvements come from jumping to different ends of platforms that are a bit lower (I'm comparing to Flip's run primarily).

I'm getting some serious desyncs in What the Heck, as well as a minor desync (corrected by adding 4 empty frames) before Andy Asteroids, using the "Earthworm Jim (U) [!].bin" rom image. What rom version are you using?

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 10/10/2009 12:17 PM

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maTO

Skilled player (1485)

Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland

Desyncs after first level. And why not save three frames standing closer to right side of screen at end of level?

Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)

Posted: 10/10/2009 1:27 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

I'm using that same ROM. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I'm recording on an older Gens? (2.11) Also, considering that your desync comes right after the first level, maTO, I'm guessing that's why it appears I'm not standing closer to the right side of the screen. I promise I'm standing as close as possible to the right, at least in my non-desynced version. Anyway, they're all moot points now, since I will probably switch to the Sega CD version.

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Posted: 10/10/2009 1:34 PM

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upthorn

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Posts: 1802

ElectroSpecter wrote:

I'm using that same ROM. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I'm recording on an older Gens? (2.11)

Wait, are you on Linux? If not, why and how are you TASing on that version?

Anyway, they're all moot points now, since I will probably switch to the Sega CD version.

Because there were substantial emulation changes required to get SegaCD to sync at all. If you can't use the current version (gens rerecording 11a), or at least a minimum of gens rerecording 10, TASing the Sega CD version will be impossible.

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 10/10/2009 2:04 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

If there's one thing I'm horribly guilty of, it's never updating my emulators. The current version of Gens works fine on my system, however (which is just Windows XP). Oddly, my movie doesn't desync even on this new version, so it may be my ROM choice (which looked fine, but is probably screwed up somehow).

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Posted: 10/10/2009 9:05 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

I've been playing the Sega CD version, and it's... definitely different. The music is nice, but I'm wondering why they didn't add those beautiful backgrounds from the SNES version (even though it's a CD it still had the limitations of the Genesis in terms of graphics?). I was surprised to find the extra area in the first level. Also, I wasn't able to skip the snowman (as that crucial hook was removed). It should be a fun project though, as soon as I can find the proper version of the ROM (I'm guessing (E) isn't acceptable for publication). Also, I have to get used to the Big Bruty level. Are there any known glitches or skips for this level?

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Posted: 10/11/2009 6:50 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

I tried some rough TASing of NEW JUNK CITY in the SegaCD version. 1. I have no idea if the ROM I'm using is the correct one. 2. Are there any shortcuts I missed? 3. Maybe it's faster to go the Stud way rather than the Wimp way.

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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:14 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

No comment on the quality, because the run desynced for me. Maybe there's something wrong on my side, but in any case it might help if you ran your ISO through this tool. For example, here's what it outputs for me:

SCDToolz v3.55 by HopeRomz (http://hoperomz.is.dreaming.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generated           : 10-11-2009 20:09:22
Database Name       : Earthworm_Jim_-_Special_Edition_(T-125045)(U)(00)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boot System         : SEGADISCSYSTEM  
CD Type             : EARTHWORMJM
System Name         : SEGAOS     
System Version      : 100
System Needed       : SEGA GENESIS    
Copyright Info      : (C)T-1251995.JAN
Local Name          : EARTHWORM JIM, SHINY ENTERTAINMENT, 1995        
World Name          : EARTHWORM JIM, SHINY ENTERTAINMENT, 1995        
Software Type       : GM
Software Version    : 00
Supported Device(s) : 3-Buttons Pad
Develloped by       : Interplay
Region Code         : U : USA
Reference ID        : T-125045
Time Stamp          : 02061995
Image Format        : ISO+MP3
CRC32 Checksum      : B7B76EA
Audio Track(s)      : 27
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 10/12/2009 3:24 AM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

Cool, processing this now...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earthworm Jim - Special Edition (T-125045)(U)(00)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boot System         : SEGADISCSYSTEM  
CD Type             : EARTHWORMJM
System Name         : SEGAOS     
System Version      : 100
System Needed       : SEGA GENESIS    
Copyright Info      : (C)T-1251995.JAN
Local Name          : EARTHWORM JIM, SHINY ENTERTAINMENT, 1995        
World Name          : EARTHWORM JIM, SHINY ENTERTAINMENT, 1995        
Software Type       : GM
Software Version    : 00
Supported Device(s) : 3-Buttons Pad
Develloped by       : Interplay
Region Code         : U : USA
Reference ID        : T-125045
Time Stamp          : 02061995
Image Format        : BIN+CUE
CRC32 Checksum      : B7B76EA
Audio Track(s)      : 27
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, looks about the same right? I guess BIOS version might have something to do with it. Looks like I'm running BIOS version 2.00.

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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:38 AM

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moozooh

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Posts: 5770
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"Image Format: ISO+MP3" in zidanax's version might have something to do with it. As the version I have is .bin+.cue as well, I'll check it tomorrow and see if it syncs.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/12/2009 5:58 AM

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zidanax

Player (215)

Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon

Tracking down a bin+cue did the trick. It does seem to make a difference which BIOS you're running. It didn't sync for me with v1.0, but did for 2.0.

Posted: 10/12/2009 6:25 AM

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upthorn

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

incidentally, US bios 1.1 is recommended for segacd, as bios 2.0 made a few changes which caused a few earlier games to become incompatible, but all later games remained compatible with 1.1. At this point, only some very minor hex-editing is necessary to make the movie sync on the 1.1 bios. Edit: in fact, http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1997918946/ElectroEWJCD_1.1.gmv here's the movie file, corrected for bios 1.1

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 10/12/2009 9:33 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

Yet another WIP of NEW JUNK CITY. This time I've used BIOS v1.10 so it should sync without issue now. Improvement of 486 frames (8.1 seconds) over my previously posted WIP.

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Posted: 10/18/2009 1:10 PM

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moozooh

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Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Finally watched the WIP, very well done. Looking forward to What the Heck. :)

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/22/2009 9:53 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

ANDY ASTEROIDS + WHAT THE HECK?. Well, up to Evil at least. I am having a very tough time manipulating him during the first segment... A movement of one or two frames seems to do the trick sometimes, but other times I can walk back and forth across the screen and nothing changes. A damage boost off the gate is possible at the second wheel and gate, but it's the same amount of frames as just jumping up, so I decided to keep my health. EDIT: Oh yeah, the wheels and gates work differently in this version. The gates will only load when they're just offscreen forcing me to whip the wheels much later than I could in the regular Genesis version (whipping the wheels any earlier doesn't work, even if I run towards the gate while the wheel is still spinning; the gate just stays closed).

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Posted: 10/23/2009 12:53 AM

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ZeXr0

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883

Can someone encore this ? It would be very nice :) Like on youtube or daily motion :P