1 2
7 8 9
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
dansalvato wrote:
You'll notice at 1:03 that he manages to dustless melon #19, whereas in your 1-1, Yoshi suffers from the ground pound endlag. It might be pixel-perfect to pull it off like he did (no flip and no lag), so it could be worth messing with the leading jump to see if you can replicate it.
Nice catch, I forgot about that weird trick. When I did a run of this level a year or so ago I attempted to pull this off even being pixel perfect, but couldn't get it. Looking into it now, it's a glitch on the (J) alone. While Yoshi is swallowing an enemy, he can groundpound even if he's on the ground already. Normally, nothing happens when you do this, but if you wait til the correct frame (right when he finishes swallowing about, the melon trigger can still be hit and the groundpound is skipped. I haven't messed around a lot with the (J) version yet, but I'll do some testing on other things. Think it's worth switching over to (J) for this run if there are version only glitches? Edit: Yeah, it's a one frame trick. Another difference I've noticed is that unlike the (U) version, if Yoshi's tongue is out when he lands on the ground, he cant jump until it is done licking. Kind of inconvenient, but I don't know if it would cost time places.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
You're allowed to use J if J has faster glitches.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Here are the differences between versions I have found so far: (J) vs (U) -slide ground-pound: ground pound trick where if you ground-pound on the last frame of yoshi's eating animation(while he's in the air or sliding), it counts as a dustless ground-pound (because you have to wait for the last frame to do this trick, it only saves time if you can eat something well before the ground-pound spot). -first level loads 2 frames faster. -If yoshi's tongue is out when he lands he cant jump, speed is lost. -sliding: if landing while swallowing, yoshi's speed is held constant which can make optimizing some things a lot easier. -The trick where you eat something, do a dust ground pound, and jump out of the dust early is not possible. -No melon animation after collecting all the melons in a stage. -Some coins and fruit are changed.
Editor, Experienced player (852)
Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 845
Location: Québec, Canada
Bobmario511 wrote:
Here are the differences between versions I have found so far: (J) vs (U) -slide ground-pound: ground pound trick where if you ground-pound on the last frame of yoshi's eating animation(while he's in the air or sliding), it counts as a dustless ground-pound (because you have to wait for the last frame to do this trick, it only saves time if you can eat something well before the ground-pound spot). -first level loads 2 frames faster. -If yoshi's tongue is out when he lands he cant jump, speed is lost. -sliding: if landing while swallowing, yoshi's speed is held constant which can make optimizing some things a lot easier. -The trick where you eat something, do a dust ground pound, and jump out of the dust early is not possible. -No melon animation after collecting all the melons in a stage. -Some coins and fruit are changed.
tl;dr which version do you think should be faster? I guess (J) since the melon animation seems quite long.
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Nahoc wrote:
tl;dr which version do you think should be faster? I guess (J) since the melon animation seems quite long.
Oddly enough, the melon animation only costs 4 frames. But yeah, the (J) version is what I'm going with. Using a sliding ground-pound on the first half of the first level already saved a nice 17 frames (in addition to 2 frames being saved because of better loading time) and can be used a few more times in the second half I believe. Depending on motivation/school work I might post an updated 1-1 tonight or tomorrow. Edit: Well then... overlooked something huge: "Another addition is a save feature in the Story Mode, which lets you pick up the game where you left it off." I've confirmed this is true, so no cutscene skips meaning the (J) version is a no go!
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
And.... BAM, 2-1 completed... http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18273620655725673 Link to video 1 thing I noticed when fighting the 3 headed bone dragons is that they have several starting positions that seem to be based off some RNG. Delaying frames didn't help change this, but I found that by not eating one super happy fruit that I didn't actually need that I could get better manipulation. I'm torn on what to do for all the future levels. I'd prefer to alternate off between using the black and white Yoshis because they are awesome, but it takes the black Yoshi 65 frames longer to start up a stage.... I doubt that whatever extra abilities the special Yoshis have would save all this time loss. Do people think I should use the "super yoshis" as a speed/entertainment tradeoff thing?
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2122)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California
Go for it. It's only a little more than a second time loss per choice and I'd personally find it entertaining.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Eszik
He/Him
Joined: 2/9/2014
Posts: 163
I don't really know the game but 1 sec loss per level sounds a lot to me‚ looks like it would add up to lose like 45s in the end.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748
Glad to see this updated. Yeah, I'd insist on using/alternating between the Black/White Yoshi's if I could. Using Sonic Advance 3 as an already published example, screw time wasted in character selection screens; just use the fastest character for the stage, be it Black, White, or somehow Green, Red and the rest.
Joined: 9/13/2014
Posts: 7
Location: United States
Love it! Congrats on the progress. My opinion on the secret Yoshis is that they're not worth the time loss, since they don't add much "entertainment value" aside from simply being unique colors. There are a couple levels which may offer a time save when using the special Yoshis, because their flutter speed while Super Happy is much faster. In those cases, you could bust them out and use them to actually save time.
Active player (423)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 329
I'd say only use the Black/White Yoshis if they are faster for that level. Also, good stuff, Bobmario511!
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Andd 3-2 done.. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18388968832674620 Link to video This level looks cool, but it was honestly a pain. Didn't like messing with the springs, gliding leaves, or the balls in the last area (they screw with Yoshi's speed). Going to be working on 4-4 next, that level has always interested me. Also, Dansalvato, for future reference, what input do you use for "egg-jumping" and endless fluttering over large gaps? I've just had to guess so far based off your run. Also, any ideas off the top of your head would the Black/White Yoshi's faster super happy flutter speed could come in handy? Thanks! Edit: Awesomeness, White Yoshi only takes 10 frames longer to select compared to Green Yoshi. I Think we have a winner. Edit again: I can tolerate it, but this graphics glitch is just weird: I'm using Glide64mk2 (the settings can be found in the .BK2), does anyone know how to fix this?
Editor, Experienced player (852)
Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 845
Location: Québec, Canada
Looking REALLY good! I'm impressed. Keep it up! <3
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Joined: 9/13/2014
Posts: 7
Location: United States
Hey, sorry for not answering your previous questions more quickly. I wish I had a good answer for my inputs, but I just "feel it out" and don't know any sort of frame data. To gain height on my normal (non-high) flutter, I hold A until approximately the peak of the flutter, then let go of A and hold it again extremely quickly. You might need to wait 2 frames to hold A again rather than 1 frame, but that should be easy to test. I imagine if you go frame by frame and keep an eye on the Y coordinate, you can figure out the best frame of the flutter on which to let go and re-press. To gain height on high flutter, I tap B at the peak of the flutter. You could possibly gain a little more height by mashing B a few times rather than tapping it. Same goes for egg jumps, I more or less feel it out. My theory is that you will gain the most height initiating charge and/or throw on the frame during which Yoshi's Y velocity is greatest, but again, you can probably test it by charging the egg on different frames and seeing which one brings Yoshi the highest. Some potential improvements: In 3-2, your flutter after melon 24 can be done much faster by gaining height using normal flutters instead of high flutters. See here: http://youtu.be/YLDAN0cBNAw?t=1m50s (Note that I use two flutters and then a high flutter, but it's possible with just one flutter and then a high flutter. Also, throwing the egg might save time over cancelling the charge, but I cancel the charge to collect additional eggs.) edit to above: See the bottom of this post for the fastest method I devised. Also in 3-2, when jumping down to get melon 3, you can ground pound onto the spring, and the spring behavior will cause the ground pound lag to be cancelled, so that might save some time over a normal jump/fall. If you can find a place to get an extra egg, you can snipe Power Heart #2 with the egg instead of using your body, which would allow you to avoid slowing down on the leaf. Hope this helps, keep up the amazing work. --- edit: New content and a couple additional things that might help. I messed with the spiked ball skip, and this was the fastest method for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c4oTepgdZY Another neat trick if you don't already know it. If you need to change direction mid-air, then you can flutter for one frame and hit the opposite direction on the stick, which is faster than waiting for Yoshi to slow down and then accelerate into the other direction. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mORHj-Yl3o Off the top of my head, white Yoshi could probably save time on: 1-1, 2-2, 3-1, 3-3, 3-4, 4-3, 5-4.
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Nice catch, getting the second heart and the egg jump were the parts I was unsure of. Looking back I could easily save an egg while opening the entrance to the racing game with no time loss (or maybe a frame or 2) which would be more than offset by constantly having max speed on the leaf. And that jump from the higher tower off to the right looks a lot cleaner than that egg jump mess I attempted. I'll look at that groundpound idea, you would certainly fall faster (speed 8 versus 4.5 max), but not being able to start licking during that time might be bad. Well see... I'm almost finished with 5-2, so once I am I will go back and implement these changes which shouldn't be too hard since this game is fairy hex friendly (especially around loading zones and resets).
Joined: 9/13/2014
Posts: 7
Location: United States
Regarding the spring, you can use your tongue right when you hit the spring, even if you ground pound. You won't lose time since you have to wait for the spring to recoil anyway. Something I forgot to mention: It's also worth noting a glitch regarding ground pound melons. If the ground pound hotspot is off-screen, then you can trigger it at any given Y position, as long as you're lined up on the X. Here's an example: http://youtu.be/UJGrqyhSEM4?t=3m51s The melon trigger is off-screen above my head, but you can hear my ground pound trigger it anyway. I've only found use for this in a couple points in the game, but you might find more.
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
5-2 done http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18747866625860619 Link to video So here's what Ive learned about Yoshi's swimming physics. His average swim speed is 4, then drops a little below 4 while Yoshi is preparing for another swimming stroke, then goes back to 4. There is a way to highly accelerate this speed in any direction. In the example of if you are heading to the right, if you hold either right and up or right and down on a certain frame during the stroke, Yoshi's speed will accelerate to around 5.45 (if down is pressed) or around 5.40 (if up is pressed). This speed is kept for a few frames, then it starts dropping a little below this value, and if you press the diagonal direction again on the correct frame, your speed will go back to 5.45. If you are going up and down its the same with holding a diagonal direction, but whichever you choose will get you a speed of about 5.65. This trick doesn't seem to apply for swimming diagonally from what I've observed. Also in the first above ground area, a tongue jump off the ground just barely falls short, but by boosting off the miss warp it's possible to make it. Time to look at 3-2 again :)
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
Finally finished the first lap. Three to go! http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18989538561483995 give the the video a little to process... Link to video First I went back and looked at how 3-2 could be improved. Groundpounding down to the spring proved slower because of the waiting frames when you first start groundpounding plus the fact that you have to jump to cancel the pound animation, loosing a spring cycle. Throwing an egg at the second heart saved 45 frames and optimizing the ball skip in the last area and other small things saved 220 more frames. As for 6-1, the level was pretty straight forward. I found a small but neat trick that lets Yoshi maintain his speed after landing on one of those weird rotating brown things (these usually reset your speed to 0) by licking right before landing which saved time. White Yoshi's extra flutter and larger egg explosions were helpful as well.
TheKDX7
He/Him
Player (115)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland
Bobmario511 wrote:
Finally finished the first lap. Three to go! http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18989538561483995 give the the video a little to process... Link to video First I went back and looked at how 3-2 could be improved. Groundpounding down to the spring proved slower because of the waiting frames when you first start groundpounding plus the fact that you have to jump to cancel the pound animation, loosing a spring cycle. Throwing an egg at the second heart saved 45 frames and optimizing the ball skip in the last area and other small things saved 220 more frames. As for 6-1, the level was pretty straight forward. I found a small but neat trick that lets Yoshi maintain his speed after landing on one of those weird rotating brown things (these usually reset your speed to 0) by licking right before landing which saved time. White Yoshi's extra flutter and larger egg explosions were helpful as well.
Very good Bob!! :D
Joined: 9/13/2014
Posts: 7
Location: United States
I was wondering if you look into specifically what happens to Yoshi's physics when you tongue jump. For instance, can you compare the change in Yoshi's velocity on one frame in the event that you use tongue vs. in the event that you don't use tongue? My theory is that the game doesn't apply gravity acceleration to Yoshi on the frame that he changes states, but I'd like to verify this for the sake of being able to explain why the trick works when I run the game.
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
When Yoshi first jumps, his vertical speed is at -7. If you are holding A, Yoshi's vertical speed will change by .2 until it becomes positive. Once Yoshi's vertical speed reaches a number greater than 4.5, it is then reduced to and capped at 4.5. If you are not holding A, Yoshi's vertical speed will change by .8, until capping at 4.5. The frame B is pressed to lick, Yoshi's horizontal and vertical speeds stop changing for 1 frame. After waiting 3 frames, you can press B again to lock the speeds for 1 frame, and so forth. An interesting thing to note is that Yoshi's speeds also stop changing on the 3rd waiting frame. So overall during this process, Yoshi's speed will stay the same 3 frames, change by .2 for 2 frames, and repeat until you hit the 4.5 speed cap. Hopefully that helps answer things =)
Joined: 9/13/2014
Posts: 7
Location: United States
Thanks a lot for the answer. So I was basically correct in assuming that gravity acceleration is not being applied for one frame every time you tongue. I have another question. I saw your Youtube video demonstration the egg throw glitch where Yoshi gets stuck in the egg throw state. Is that something that you can consistently pull off, or did it only happen in this one instance? Are there any special environmental requirements to pull it off, like a special platform to land on? Also, what is the setup required? I assume it's frame perfect. edit: To add, was it in US or JP version?
Experienced player (576)
Joined: 2/23/2008
Posts: 266
Location: CA, USA
It was in the US version. Unfortunately, I am not quite sure of the circumstances needed in order to get this to work, but after I egg cancel an egg while falling, if I start aiming another egg on the earliest frame after cancelling, the glitched state is reached. Only that frame glitched it, as the next frame allowed the run to go on as normal. I was ~22 units off the ground when this happened, but I don't know if that's relevant. Sadly, I've only gotten into this glitched state in that place I was at during the video. I'll be sure to update you as I continue working if things like that happen. Another interesting glitch which may be worth looking into is this: Link to video
TheKDX7
He/Him
Player (115)
Joined: 7/9/2011
Posts: 392
Location: Switzerland
Any progress Bobmario?
1 2
7 8 9