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ventuz
He/Him
Player (123)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
Fabianx wrote:
What is the source for this last trick?
What the heck.. I did reinterpreted the trick from some site to post here and posted all the link I got the source. It's either they deleted the trick or I misinterpretated. Sorry. No, I didn't try it.
Joined: 2/7/2006
Posts: 55
Kyrsimys wrote:
I've never heard of that trick. Sometimes the game gives you two weapon orb chests in a row (where there seems to be only one) but this is probably because you have missed an orb somewhere, and this is the game's way of repairing the situation and getting you where you should be with the weapon orbs. I think this has just been misinterpreted as a multiple weapon orb trick here.
I agree. I've noticed the game does that at times to make up for lost orbs. I would agree that someone probably misinterpreted this as a glitch.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178
Secret of Mana run would be awesome.
<^>v AB X LR s
Joined: 8/29/2005
Posts: 148
Location: Dayton, OH
I dunno. I think it has potential to be really boring. If all the bosses after the first few are just magic spammed, it could be a snorefest, especially if you have to level the magic to make it effective. It would be great if you could do something similar to SoE atlas glitch to score big weapon hits.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I don't find the run over at SDA boring. So I don't think a TAS would be boring.
Joined: 2/7/2006
Posts: 55
I agree that it wouldn't be boring, but I'm as hardcore of an SOM fan as they come. I guess for people who never played the game it might be.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Err... Badrad.. I guess that goes for any game video that a person have not played once in his/her life. People doesn't watch movies of games they have never played. Atleast not if you ask me. :D Well.. I have watched a couple of TAS:es of games I've never played. But I wasn't entertained by all of them. A couple of games are for example (that I was entertained by) Kiwi kraze, Uhmihara kawase and Cheetahmen II. :D
Post subject: Secret of Mana - Analysis
Joined: 12/17/2004
Posts: 99
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
I'll not do this project as I have not enough time, but I'll try to help out in finding the necessary things. First of all it would be very good if someone could check the following myths (and if not they still are a good laugh ...): I think the first one is a bit uhm, unrealistic ...
Infinite Life Once you have to have four of each type of healing item, you use them all one by one. When you're done you will have infanite life. Submitted by gamemaster(gamemaster@hotmail.com)
Another unlimited weapon orbs trick ... Somehow I doubt that it'll work ... But can anyone check?
Unlimited Weapon Orbs Go to any chest in a dungeon that has an orb and open it, then use the magic rope to teleport to the entrance of the dungeon. Go to the nearest watt and have him forge the weapon. then return to the chest where you found the orb and another of the same type of orb will be there. repeat this process as many times as you'd like. (note: Do not forge your weapon past its highest phase or it will be turned back to it's very first stage i.e. if you forge your sword to its 9th and final stage the forge it once more it will become the rusty blade.) Submitted by Cory Downing (tightcmd@aol.com)
Uhm, I liked the chocolate trick better ...
Invincibility Get fired out of the cannon 50 times Submitted by N64 gamer (brokenaro8@aol.com)
What I found out regarding chests dropped by enemies, yet is that its dependant on the exact frame you hit ... Well, I guess we guessed that already, but its always good to know ... Ok here is more information: http://tartarus.rpgclassics.com/staff/som/cheats.shtml There are monster statistics modifiers for the 3 monsters on screen (max). So, carefully watch them while tas'ing! Another edit: http://datacrystal.org/wiki/Secret_of_Mana has much information on internals of the game. It links to: http://starmen.net/pkhack/som/ which finally solves some important questions of the game: - You cannot gain a sword orb via normal monsters. - The mystic ruby armet is not dropped by a normal monster. - There are weapons, which have quite a high critical hit rate, which should make it easier to find the memory values responsible for the critical hits. - We can hack the rom and so change effects of the game to help in understanding whats happening. That maps might also be quite helpful to plan the route if we are able to figure out how to manipulate luck deterministically. And another new thing: 7EE{7,9,B}CE is the percentage of the enemy to drop a chest. So if you set this to 99, you'll almost always get a chest, which of course is not helpful, but it could help in finding the memory location if set to 50% or so, because it is much more probable that way ... Whew, I'll be the edit king of the night: I found out where the game stores the niceness of the enemies. If you want to have a walk-through without being attacked once use the following code: 7EE7ED with a value higher than 1 ... I used 4c ... (Repeat for the other 3 monsters ...) Its so nice the world is in order again. All monsters (espcially the pogos at the beginning) are nice and nothing has ever happened ;-) ... Or you can play the evil world with bad creatures all over ... by setting it to 0 ... Its the "frames until next attack" value. Default is 99, which seems to be hardcoded as it does not show up in the enemy table.
7EE{6,8,A}02: y coordinate of enemy x
7EE{6,8,A}04: x coordinate of enemy x
7EE{6,8,A}45: z coordinate of enemy x
7EE7CE: percentage of enemy 1 to drop a chest
7EE7ED: "niceness" factor of enemy 1
Here we go: Luck manipulation via chests. It seems each frame the random number generator mod 100 is checked if it is lower or equal than the percentage. The frame that needs to be hit is the one, when the monster "explodes". So you have several frame possibilities as the animation for the hit is different and can cost more or less frames ... Edit: ----- Here we go again: Self-Destroying sequence (quite funny): 7EE7F1FF - enemy 1 gets 255 damage every frame Another edit: ------------- Random number generator works as follows: static int SoM_hitframe(void) { int hit_max=5; // TODO int frames=0; int A[15]; int x, res, y; printf("FF: Getting bytes from memory.\n"); x=S9xGetByte(0x7e03f0); hit_max+=S9xGetWord(0x7ee196); for (int i=0; i < 15; i++) A=S9xGetByte(0x7e03f1+i); printf("FF: Got all bytes from memory.\n"); res=INT_MAX; while (res >= hit_max) { frames++; y=(x-1)<0?0xe:(x-1); A[y]=(A[x]+A[y]) % 256; x=(x + 1) % 0xF; res=A[y]; } return frames-6; } You can disable all the randomness in the generator by setting 0x7e03f? to 0 where ? is 0-F. By setting this I found out that the length and the choice of of the animation is not dependant on the random number generator, but just on the frame it occurs on. So it seems to be somewhat deterministic. While the random number generator is run each frame once, the result seems to be not used. At least thats what I see from the following code snippet:
0059e3 20 a0 38      JSR $38a0          ;·call rand()
0059e6 a5 80         LDA $80·····         ; overwrite result of rand()
0059e8 30 10         BMI $59fa·····
0059ea ad 04 1d      LDA $1d04          ;·
0059ed 89 01         BIT #$01·····
0059ef f0 03         BEQ $59f4·····
0059f1 4c 28 58      JMP $5828          ;·
Functions needing the random number generator call it directly before the result aka:
hit_rate=held[hit_rate]
if ( held wears hit_rate weapon or status effect)
  hit_rate*=2
if (plus_much_effect)
      hit_rate += 16
else
      hit_rate += 5
if (rand() < hit_rate)
          attack*=2
I was now trying to add support to snes9x to display the next critical hit frame. That works, but I have still problems with the length of the animation until hit ... With almost the same algorithm it can be determined if a chest appears and what it contains ... cu Fabian PS: While we wait for the tas, consider taking a look at this very nice music video I've just found: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6550087712744740973&q=secret+of+mana&pl=true Btw. thats german and not Japanese ;-)
Player (166)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
Hmm,,, I think I may fool around with this game a bit. My roomate (who is probably the master of this game) and I played around with a speedrun concept for this earlier today, on console. He got to Tropicallo in,, must've been under five minutes,, and then we proceeded to get our asses handed to us many many times (his attacks really hurt at level 2). I finally beat him after awhile of us messing around, and it was no easy feat. I started thinking of a TAS right about there,,, since this is an action RPG it really wont be too boring,,, Well,,, some of the mid-game bosses might be, since it's just magic spamming then,,, there really isn't a faster way at low levels, until you get moon magic and can hit 999's with that one spell I can't recall the name of. We think,,, this should be possible in under three hours (maybe faster?). Uhh,,,, anyway, I'll play around with this for awhile and see if I think I'll be able to TAS it,,, since nobody else seems to be,,,
ventuz
He/Him
Player (123)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
I believe so, I thought I was impressed with 5 hours on SDA until I watched it. I saw many mistake in it, one of biggest mistake I saw is him running out entire witch castle after defeating tiger. He could just talk to witch to warp to entrance instantly. So it should be under 3 hours on TAS easily.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Ventuz - I didn't know about that trick either. :D Cheers for sharing.
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Interesting that this doesn't seem to be that widely known. Here in germany the folks at Nintendo didn't have very much faith in the RPG experience of the players, so they shipped every SNES RPG with a detailed 100page walkthrough (called "Spieleberater") which among others featured this trick IIRC. It has also listings of monster stats (incl. hp/exp/gold), vendor locations/prices... quite handy for a TAS. EDIT: I just did some testing and can now confirm that length of character names is not an issue. I started a game in which I called the main hero "GORI" and compared it to Zer0's WIP. The "U" of the intro appeared 99 frames later in my version, and the splash from falling from the log also 99 frames. After getting the sword I was 98 frames behind, and by that the name got printed at least 12 times. The only time a TAS with long names would be longer would be entering the names.
Joined: 3/27/2005
Posts: 37
ventuz wrote:
I believe so, I thought I was impressed with 5 hours on SDA until I watched it. I saw many mistake in it, one of biggest mistake I saw is him running out entire witch castle after defeating tiger. He could just talk to witch to warp to entrance instantly. So it should be under 3 hours on TAS easily.
Yes but it's not sure you can do TAS under 3H ^^ My estimation for TAS is 3h10. I take about 20 min ( like TAS of zero ) for to go after the 2 werewolfs, there are big mistakes in my first run, but i don't think they take so time, i am improving my run, but PAL-)NTSC ( 50-)60Hz ) remains the biggest improve so far, i don't want ANY mistake in my new run, but i need too tricks, in fact i am planing if it's faster to buy power weapon in shop like Zero did in his TAS run but i don't think. Explanations : To go in the shop take lots of s : to enter, to speak and to leave the shop ( 2X loading ) + Equipement. It's perharps totally useless in a TAS ( i think ) because for each fight it's like you purchase a critical hit ( you skip 1 or 2 hit at each fight, perharps 1 for tropicallo, 0 for the 2 werwolf, 1 for tigger, 2 or 3 for the boss#4 with 2 form ( and error for the first form in the manual, he hasn't 600 HP but about 300HP and the second has 770HP ok ) 1 or 2 for the first robot ( you use too undine magic ). But you divide all of that per 2 if we suppose you do a critical hit at each time in a TAS run ( and it will be again easier when you have Purim and Popoie, you have more random last imput to do for to manipulate luck while barr go to 100% after the last critical hit ). And to play with 1 player is faster than 2 or 3 ( when you are running the 2 other chars don't use their barr when they are following you ), i don't understand what's your multitap matter ( for zero tas run ). Few improvements for TAS run like Zero or other ask : -)Better way to take the sword ( more right/up ) -)Don't kill all these green ennemis, just up sword at level 1 by the fastest way, perharps you can kill the 2 bat at the first room of gaia navel by 1 critical hit i don't remenber, and kill the rabbit X3 with a critical it at the begin of the game, you can to push 1 or 2 of them with luck manipulation for to kill 3 at the same time. -)Don't go in the Shop -)Call the girl "Z" or "A" but no "C" ( slower lol ^^ ). ---) You need to kill only 10 ennemis for to level up the sword there are the first boss 1*0.09 +10*0.09=0.99=1.00 in the game, finally. And just one thing, the moves of zero after to reach pandora isn't luck manipulation, i thought but it is just for to don't nothing while waiting the mushroom do left-)right, it works each time on SNES, but i think it's faster to do like in my run, I'll see that too. edit : and there are other way to manipulate luck on snes, example : At the the first room of gaia navel with the bast, when you can controll randi run as fast as you can left/up and you run against the wall, and stop before to reach the end of the vertical part, then just go up and the 2 bats will never use magic, i tested it lots of time time and it worked at each time. I am searching a way to manipulate the green ennemi before to take the magic item at gaia navel, i am sure it is possible ^^ But each time it must be a trick which need perfect input per frame only at the begin, if not, it's humainly impossible :( Last imputs are resetting at each warping, but not for a translation door, like at gaia navel, example, the door just before the green ennemi which is before the magic item. Other thing : i can't do that in the Tree Palace, if you do that ( with for example sword charged at level 1 ), nothing happens. You need to take the true way. You are sure you can hack the rom for TAS run Oo ?? The 50 canon is a fake, other rumors/true trick in this french page : http://www.squarepalace.com/dossiers/secretofmana/rumeurs/rumeurs.php I will post all i know for full run later, i am just planing a few thing for to see what is faster or not, because i am planing thing on SNES which are tototally useless for TAS run so it will not be interresting ^^ edit2 : What's a 100% run for you ? The 2 extra items + to kill the 2*2 wall ? The extra story at the phare ? To take each chest orb/gold even if it dissapears at the end ? To force each non playable char's dialog untill they tell you the same thing ? To have the perfect inventory/stats ? With SDA rules i think you just need the 2 extra items. edot3 : Culden what about your walkrought run ? I already use you first run for to test way but I will do my own walk run for to use savestats for to test lots of thing ( like low level magic spam ), i just want if you run is leveling up like the first, if it's the case i will do my own walk low level but it will not be a TAS but sure it will be under 4H, in fact there will not are any mistake+the way of my run but it will not be a perfect run like Zero's TAS.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Too bad that that page is not in english. I can't remember enough french to actually make out much of that site. :( Feel free to translate it! =D
SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
ok, I've sum it up. I give no guarantee whatsoever, please note that I never played the game either, so translations are approximatic. you can find the matching images on the original site. Armet : THE rumor. launched by Squaresoft itself. can be seen in the french guide, a helmet with an unknown price/defensive power. the place where it can be found is of course "secret"... squarepalace (the site) opinion : we proved the existence of the Armet. our friend DooKie, as an exclusivity back then, found the Action Replay code "7ECC250C". Secret item : again found while toying with Action Replay by DooKie. it looks like a healing item, since its graphic effect is close to a candy or a nut. you may download here a zSnes savestate providing that object, in slot 9. careful, your rom's name must match savestate's name (extension excluded) for the file to work. SP's opinion : incredible ! 12 years after its release, SoM can still surprise us ! where does it come from, and what is its use ? if you know what this is about, feel free to contact us. Secret character ? while testing the heroes characteristics, DooKie and Poppu found by chance an unused sprite in SoM ! in some aspects, it reminds the emperor's sprite. to see it, enter zSnes code "7EE180B3". who is this person ? what gender is he/she ? why wasn't him/her included in the final version of the game ? those numerous questions will probably never find any answers. one of the "ultimate" secret of the game ! the character's palette. it's complete, so the sprite was fully finished ! SP's opinion : again an enigma left to solve : why not included ? enemy ? ally ? again a SP's exclusivity. don't forget to change room once the code entered to make your character's sprite change. if you know who it is, please contact us. The Mysterious Island : you must surely have already seen this island, lost somewhere in the ocean. a lot of people pretend it's a secret world, with much stronger enemies than in Mana's Fortress. some even said having been there, and found the Armet there ! what is about it ? SP's opinion : SoM was originally designed for Satella View, the famicom's extension. but this extension was a failure, and only available in Japan. it allowed to play over the satellite at the cost of a monthly fee, like today's Internet connection. the most famous game on it were BS-Zelda and F-Zero premium edition. the main interest was the ability to add new content to games, like dungeons in Zelda or tracks in F-Zero, without erasing the player's data. back then, it was a very interesting feature and really extended the games' lifetime. but the developers rather chose to adapt SoM on the Famicom, which had a much broader public. that's why some parts of the game have no meaning, like this head in the ocean. the greatest loss about that change was probably about weapons/armors : players could borrow those of the sets to equip them (especially in the empty rooms of the ruins). but those elements disappeared because the console couldn't handle them, due to its lack of memory. that's why there is this head-shaped island. maybe was it a whole lost world, or even more, the Armet, surely the remains of the beta version of the Satellite View. moreover, a second head was found in the mountains. those oddities seem to be some sort of dedication from Squaresoft, since other faces can be found in the Final Fantasy series. more to come : - Solar - Mana Sword - True Sorcia ? - a debug room ? - kill Jojo - infinite life points - invincible - go back to Potos - sleep as Mimi - perverted Mana developers ? - level 9 magics - infinite weapons spheres - weapons spheres retailer - no more shadows ! if you want on of those sections first, say so, or I'll do them in that order. might take some time. sorry for the (often) poor translation.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 83
Location: Montreal, Canada
I'm perfectly bilingual in English and French but haven't extensively played SoM, so my in-game text translations might be off. I more or less winged this, but nonethless, it's the rumor site in its entirety. Enjoy! Armlet: THE rumor. It was started by SquareSoft themselves. In the French manual, we see a helmet called Armlet with an unknown price or defense level. Its location is, as if by coincidence, "secret..." Our opinion: Armlet's existence was proven by Square Palace. At the time it was a world exclusive! Our friend DooKie, in fact, discovered it thanks to an Action Replay code, 7ECC250C ! The secret item Our friend DooKie by chance "found" a secret item by using Action Replay codes. This item is apparently a healing item since its graphical effect is close to that of the candy or nut. You can download a ZSNES savestate here containing this item. It's in Slot 9. Be careful, your ROM has to be named like the .zs9 file for it to work. Our opinion: Incredible! 12 years after its release, Secret of Mana can still amaze us ! Where does this item come from and what is it used for ? If you know what it is, don't hesitate to contact us! A secret character? While testing on hero status values, DooKie and Poppu by chance found an unused sprite in Secret of Mana! It's not unlike that of the emperor in certain respects. To see this sprite, input the following ZSNES code: 7EE180B3. Who is this person? Gender? Why was he omitted from the finished version? Many questions that'll likely never be answered! One of the "ultimate" secrets of the game! The character's palette. It's complete, so the sprite is completely finished! Our opinion: Once again we have a mystery to solve: why not use this sprite? Is it an ennemy? An ally? In any case, it's a Square Palace EXCLUSIVE! Don't forget to change your armor once the code is activated for your sprite to change! If you know who this is, don't hesitate to contact us! The mysterious island You've almost certainly seen that island, lost somewhere in the ocean. Many claim it's a secret world with ennemies even tougher than those in the Mana Fortress. Some even claim to have been and found the Armlet! Our opinion: Secret of Mana was originally intended for the Broadcast Satellite expansion to the Super Famicom. However, it had limited success and was only made available in Japan. It allowed playing games by satellite with a monthly subscription, like with today's internet. The most popular games for this expansion were BS-Zelda and F-Zero Premium Edition. The main selling point of the expansion was that elements could be added to games, such as dungeons for Zelda, or courses for F-Zero, like patches, without the player losing his current game. Very good for its time, extending the longevity of a game. But the developers preferred adapting Secret of Mana for the Super Famicom, which was considerably more popular. So certain elements in Secret of Mana don't have any real "meaning," like that head in the ocean. Besides, the biggest "loss" concerning this readaptation concerned weapons and armor: we could take those from the decor and equip ourselves with them (like in the empty rooms in the ruins). However, these features were nixed due to the console's limited memory. This is why that head-shaped island is there. It was probably there that a submerged continent or the Armlet would be found, something lost since the BS Beta version. What's more, a second head was discovered in the mountaints. These seem to be some sort of homage or running gag from SquareSoft since we find similar faces in the Final Fantasy series. Solar Before entering Puritas for the first time, raise all your magic to level 8:99. Then, enter the Mana Forest and the tree should say "The Legendary Hero Arrives!" instead of ".... I've been waiting! Come here, quickly!" followed by a flash and the solar element appearing. It will say that you alone are worthy of using its magic to triumph over evil. This spell is meant to combine the best attack spells of the eight elements into a single spell, Solar. Our opinion: This rumor is definitely false despite being quite widespread. It goes against the Mana legend, which specifies eight palaces with one guardian each. Solar therefore can't exist. It's also impossible to raise Magic to level 8:99 (the max at that point being 7:00) since the bucket of seeds was dissolved. Since we're old ROM translators, we scoured the dialogue for lines suspect of introducing Solar, but our search was in vain. However, the Rainbow spell from Seiken Densetsu 3 corresponds well to the above description. Sword of Mana All the hardcore players have asked themselves if it were possible to obtain the last sphere of the Sword of Mana. You can obtain it by exploiting a game bug; as crazy as that sounds, it's the only way. With you have the Flammy drum, go to a small island near the Ice Palace. If you stand in the right spot, you'll find Chacha. Save your game with him. Immediately after, press L, R and START simultaneously. This will reset the game. Start a new game, reach Mantides, and when Elliot starts asking for your protection, reset the game with L, R and START again. Continue the game where you saved with Chacha, and you'll be in front of Mantides! Kill him and you'll get his sphere again. The game continues normally from here... Our opinion: It's completely crazy but it works! Note that this only works on the American and Japanese versions of the game. The bug was fixed for the European version, so the only way to get the sphere is via an Action Replay. The real Sorcia? By using the same technique for finding the mysterious character, we found an unusued Sorcia sprite, shown as an old woman. You can see it using ZSNES code 7EE180BA and moving to the side. It wasn't implemented into the final version but is nonetheless there. Why? Our opinion: It just gets better and better! An alternate version of Sorcia! Another Square Palace exclusive! Everyone to your ZSNES emulators, and don't forget to change your armor once the code is triggered in order to change your sprite! A debug room? Hell found by chance this room which looks a Beta Debug Room. To get to it, use ZSNES code: 7E00DC0F. You can talk to different characters and access the Intro by speaking to the King! Our opinion: Hell really surprised us with this Action Replay cheat! Are there other rooms like this one in the game? Another mystery! Kill Jojo It's possible to kill Jojo, a Plusarkos pacifist. This ferryman can take you to the Moon Palace. Our opinion: It's true! It is, in fact, possible to kill Jojo! To do this, one must fire an attack spell before climbing on board the ferry. Popoie and his magie "mud" does the job quite nicely. Amusingly, you can kill him as often as you like, by leaving and returning. Poor Jojo... Infinite HP You must have four of each curative object. Use them all, one at a time, on a character. Once that's done, he'll be invincible. Our opinion: Some people like making fools of others. Invincible Use the voyage cannon 50 times in a row to be invincible. Our opinion: No comment... Return to Potos After being banished, return to Potos with your three living heroes. Walk against the guard while constantly pressing Select. Our opinion: This works...but only on the American version, another bug eliminated from the European version. Although, our friend Kenshin found a way to do it in the European version! You just have to press SELECT when the man talks to you and you'll back up towards Potos!! In fact, you have to mess around: for example, by charging him and then quickly changing direction, going forwards and backwards in every direction...but it's very hard to do. But Hell2405 proposes another technique: put yourself close to the man, cast a spell with Purim (like Remedy) and press SELECT repeatedly while going in the direction of Potos. If you're lucky, you can pass. It's a risk but it works. There's a third technique, which works on all versions, which aquamario showed us. It consists of passing "through" the man by using your companions' AI. Rather than talk at length about it, here's a video of Hell showcasing this technique (Click HERE to download) Sleep as Mimi It's possible to sleep in an inn with an appearance of Mimi Our opinion: It's true. For this, it's simple: just transform into Mimi using the Mimi belt before talking to the innkeeper. Perverted SoM developpers? Yup, our dear friends who programmed Secret of Mana programmed in something rather amusing! Our friend Xeo_Iwakura found it, and we were very surprised since we never noticed it! It involves Perillo in the Grand Palace, and once of his pages. If you want to see this rather "original" game attraction, hit Perillo several times and with luck you'll see this "hot" page. Our opinion: A rather amusing aspect of SquareSoft's great classic! Must see at least once! Level 9 Magic After getting Level 8 Magic, it can happen that it does special spells, such as dragons instead of fireballs, which would in fact be Level 9 Magic. Our opinion: This rumor is well-known and proven. All hardcore SoM games know this already... The greater your Magic EXP after Level 8, the greater the chance of casting Level 9 magic. 8:99 Magic will, for example, cast special magic 99% of the time. Infinite Weapon Spheres It's possible to have infinite Weapon Spheres. For this, you have to go into a dungeon with a chest containing a sphere, opening it, using magic rope, and going to have your weapon forged. Once that's done, return to the dungeon and the sphere will still be there, allowing as many as you like. Our opinion: It's actually a misinterpretation. When you find a sphere in a chest, it's possible that the chest doesn't disappear if you missed the previous sphere in a way that you can "catch up." For example, if you open a chest containing a Lance Sphere when you missed the previous one, you'll find two spheres! A Weapon Sphere vendor Somewhere, there's a Weapon Sphere Vendor... Our opinion: Forging a weapon has its price, but a sphere is far too rare to be sold! Don't bother looking, you have to fight to earn them! Shadow Zero! Sometimes, a Shadow Zero (an enemy from Seiken Densetsu 3) may come out of a chest. In the English version, the message "Shadow Zero" appears, which in French is "Plus d'ombre." This may seem strange given that this enemy isn't in Secret of Mana but is in its sequel two years later... Our opinion: The consequences of this trapped chest are unknown to this day...
Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 108
Shadow Zeroes are also found in the original Seiken Densetsu (final fantasy adventure) on Game Boy. Interestingly, they're quite a pain, as when you discover them for the first time (Medusa Cave), you're weak enough to where they can nearly 1-shot you.
Player (70)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I see they want us to contact them if we find new stuff about the game, but how do we do so? I tried to look around their website about contact info. But I can't seem to find any. Any language-gifted person who could tell me their contact e-mail? Edit: Never mind the above. I just missed the link saying CONTACT, even though my eyes passed over it a billion of times.
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
That's all nice, but the real question remains how to manipulate crits. What debugger do you use to disassemble snes roms? I tried tracer and isda, but the former seems to mess up the offsets and the latter is crap on a gigahertz machine.
ventuz
He/Him
Player (123)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
Use tracer log real short time.. like just before you hit enemy, turn on.. hit landed, turn off.. exit snes and look at log. I don't know anything about ASM but that's how it goes I guess.
Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
Our opinion: The people involved with that site seem to be full of themselves. Also, many of those are widely known. All I really wanted to say (if it hasn't been said already, sorry) is that 1P should actually be faster than 3 players because you can run and use up your charge, switch, use up the charge by running again, etc. Although I would still understand the appeal of a 3 player TAS, especially since with all the poles and bouncy guys and things that sync all the players to one location, you can have 2 players goof off or kill enemies and not lose speed. Gorash: That's counterintuitive but interesting. Since the text advances by character, do you have an explanation? (like the box only lets you advance after a certain delay, which would sync the name differences) Obviously for text that advances by pages ("Purim sees the reaper" in battle, or other games altogether), the name length wouldn't matter.
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
I do have an explanation yes. I think the display works on a fixed array of characters independant of the name that are padded into it. For example if a line spoken by the hero goes:
Yeah, whatever
then the program assumes that this line is as long as the text plus 6 characters for the name of the hero and sets the animation counter to that value. Then the name gets sprintf'ed into it or whatever, so the animation displays less, but still lasts as long as a 6 char name. I had the sensation that some texts take 2 or more frames to press away, that might be because I had a 4 character name. Btw.: I messed a little more with the assembler code, and I have the strong suspicion that the original random function looked a lot like this abomination:
// A[16] is the address space at 03f0-03ff
byte rand() {
  return A[A[0]] += A[ A[0] = A[0]%15+1 ];
}
I tested it and my compiler screws up on the order, but the code implies something like this was the origin. It works if the compiler first interpolates the first A[0] and then calculates the addition in the second index, which is AFAIK not specified by standard C. EDIT: Worked on crit manipulation. The thing is, the RNG gets called everything between 1 and over 10 times a frame. I can predict how many calls it needs to get a crit, but I dont' know how many frames that will be until then. It may also be that you would have to slash at an enemy at some split frame to get there, which is not possible. Also the RNG sometimes gets called for seemingly no reason, like when a tune sets in, or when an enemy make some AI decisions. Some more stuff. The direction the enemy walks does not affect crits. It seems the AI is deterministic in that point. Predicting will be not possible until someone really takes it apart, far more than I'm capable of. I'll mess around with the conventional trial&error.
Joined: 12/17/2004
Posts: 99
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
>Btw.: I messed a little more with the >assembler code, and I have the strong >suspicion that the original random function >looked a lot like this abomination: >
// A[16] is the address space at 
>03f0-03ff

>byte rand() {
>  return A[A[0]] += A[ A[0] = A[0]%15+1 ];
>}
Yeah, that is what I have found out as well. >Worked on crit manipulation. The thing is, the >RNG gets called everything between 1 and >over 10 times a frame. I can predict how >many calls it needs to get a crit, but I dont' >know how many frames that will be until >then. If you do nothing it normally is once per frame. I've looked at all the RNG calling functions. >It may also be that you would have to >slash at an enemy at some split frame to get >there, which is not possible. Yes, that is possible. The point is just that the animation of the hit is not random, but instead seems to be fixed on frame counter. I've set all bits of the RNG to 0 such making it useless and fully deterministic and I still had different animations, but an infinity of critical hits and chests. The length of the aninmation determines the frame of hit, where the RNG is asked. To be helpful the RNG prediction now has to see where the next critical hit frame is, when nothing big changes and have to look if there is a frame where the length of the animation would fit that frame. Then put this out as the first frame, where it is possible to strike. My real problem was that I could not find out how the length of the animation was calculated. This way you won't get a 100% prediction, but you can help a TASer to not have to try everything ... >Also the RNG >sometimes gets called for seemingly no >reason, like when a tune sets in, or when an >enemy make some AI decisions. You normally don't need to predict that far ... >Predicting will be not possible until someone >really takes it apart, far more than I'm >capable of. I'll mess around with the >conventional trial&error. If you can tell me how the length of the animation from button-press until hit is calculated, its possible to predict it at least for a short time. And I'm talking about source code changes here, that'll show the frame of possibly next critical hit frame / frames. Or you use again the source and make an interface for the memory, to be able to read it out with third party software. Great, that you are also working on that. cu Fabian
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Ah, you're following the thread, that's great. Well, I've been messing with the game, and I'm reaching Mantis Ant some frames earlier than Zer0 despite sacrifizing 99 frames for name entry. His movements were... suboptimal. My problem now is to manipulate the hit/damage cancel/crit sequences he used to get the fight over in the same amount of frames, which I can't seem to do. This is another thing that would be nice, cancelling the 100% counter. At the moment I just try every possible frame, but not even that is sufficient, because depending on the point where you stand a swing attack can hit a frame earlier or later it seems (alhough I've not seriously verified that). I also tried your RNG deactivation cheat, and it's same for me. Another thought I had is that I saw this pattern of adding before in a crypto class. I'll mess around with that. Stupid question, where do I get the source code of the actual snes9x-i9 version? I have a tracing version that's a lot older, and I've got an unlabelled source package from the snes9x forum here which is not the i9 version. Also Fabian, if you're interested, I can upload what I have so far, so you can take a look. 1500 rerecords for 3 hits on Mantis Ant so far is too much to do an actual run, so I'd appreciate help.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Gorash wrote:
Stupid question, where do I get the source code of the actual snes9x-i9 version?
I believe I put it here, if you mean the version I think you do.
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