Topic by Heisanevilgenius

Posted: 9/8/2006 6:00 AM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Urrrgghghghghhh!!!!!!!! That terrible, TERRIBLE, feeling when you discover a trick later on in the game that would have saved you tons of time earlier. What do I do now? :/ After all that agonizing with hex editing just to finish the opening dialogue faster, now I discover a trick that could save me possibly hundreds of frames. Anyway, the trick I learned was this: Normally, Grant's Punch attack has a large number of frames during which you stay perfectly still. For this reason, I avoid killing enemies unless absolutely necessary. Even still, I kill dozens of enemies simply because they'll get in my way and prevent me from getting by more quickly. I found that if you punch, then immediately change directions the frame afterwards, the punching animation cancels, but if you managed to score a hit in the first punch frame it still counts. In other words, a punch that I've had to use against many opponents, that can take 20 or 30 frames to do, I now know how to do in 3. Some enemies have required two punches, and that means about 40 to 60 frames that *might* be doable in 6. I don't know what to do now. If I have to start all over again, it's going to royally suck. If I redo certain parts and hex edit it will suck nearly as much if not more. A huge hassle considering how this game works. If I just continue on as usual, the game will not be optimal. I'm almost ready to just give up. :(

Posted: 9/8/2006 7:59 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>If I have to start all over again, it's going to royally suck. On the other hand, if you don't, it's almost surely going to be rejected, and even if it's accepted, someone can very easily improve on it with out really playing that much better. I don't know how far along you are, but if it's towards the latter half, my suggestion would be to continue the game using the new trick. This gives you a sense of completion instead of starting over blank. Take a break and then start a new version. You will also have something to compare against. Easier said than done, all this.

Posted: 9/8/2006 1:06 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Way to GO!

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 9/8/2006 9:01 PM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Okay, here's the thing. I'm about half-way done level 3. There are six levels in all, so I'm about half-done the whole game. Actually, probably less than half because level 2 is one of the shortest levels. I guess starting over would be best. Although, I don't have to start right at the beginning. The first punch is delivered fairly early in the first level, but everything up to then is pretty much optimal. Interestingly enough, I spent about two or three days doing the first level to begin with and spent at least a week hex-editing later when I found out I made a mistake. So I guess redoing that would not be too hard. (A couple of parts were a pain, but hex-editing those very short parts wouldn't be too difficult.) So I guess the plan is: 1. Make a backup. 2. Go back to the first punch. Maybe even sooner. There's one or two parts early on that I'm not 100% convinced are optimal, so I can try those out. 3. Rerecord everything from scratch. 4. Hex-edit parts of the backup where easier. 5. Collapse. It also occurs to me, that one of the guys I hit with stun gas might actually be faster to punch than stun. At one point I stop walking for a few frames because I'd just thrown one and it takes a little while before I can fire the next one. If it only takes three frames to punch the guy, why wait six frames to avoid him?

Posted: 11/3/2006 5:32 PM
(Edited: 11/4/2006 5:42 AM)

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

I started work on this again. The frustrating point where I stopped was one of those big molotov throwing guys in the first mission. He blocks the way to a passage and he takes two hits to kill. The fast punch trick works, but he seems to have a long invulnerability period after getting hit so I couldn't get him with a quick one-two. I did accidentally discover a way to slip right past him but it has to be absolutely frame perfect, and it only happens under very specific circumstances. It took me a long time to figure out the minimal way to get past him. Essentially, his collision box seems to change when he switches to his attack animation, meaning that in order for me to slip past him, I need to allow him to attack me (which means taking 50% of my health in damage.) I seem to have gotten the hang of it, so work commences I guess.

Posted: 11/4/2006 5:41 AM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Here's a WIP. I'm back in the middle of the first mission. http://hyena.kiwibonga.com/Heisanevilgenius-MissionImpossible.fcm As you might have noticed I made some changes. Changing to Nick and using the disguise is no longer done. Grant just moves faster. I probably should have done that from the beginning. As a result, Grant loses more energy earlier and I'm forced to switch characters every time he'd lose damage. Each time I switch characters it takes 8 frames, but overall I'm sure I gain more from sticking with Grant and his faster movement. I also have one more gas grenades at my disposal, which I think will pay off. I've saved 276 frames so far from the previous run.

Posted: 11/6/2006 1:40 AM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Hmm. It occurred to me that since it takes 8 frames to switch from Grant to Nick, take the appropriate damage, and switch back, it may be faster to avoid damage altogether. I only need to avoid getting hit three times, as a health kit becomes available soon afterwards. And since the molotov takes 50% of my health I'll need to switch anyway. I'm going to test this a bit and see what I can come up with. Edit: Okay, there are definitely a few places where I can save time. Right at the beginning, the first time I take damage, I can just punch the guy and that would take about three frames or so to do. I'll need to find the three places where I can avoid damage the most quickly.

Posted: 11/7/2006 4:23 PM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

It seems like I've had to more or less start over at the beginning again. Soldiers with guns take off 2 points of damage when they shoot you and I found a way to avoid getting hit by one right at the start, while sacrificing only 1 frame. This saves 16 frames from having to switch characters twice later on. At least I now know exactly what points I can take damage and where, and how many gas canisters I can use. I'm convinced that once I actually do beat the first mission, it will be as optimal as I can possibly reason. Someone would need to discover some pretty wacky glitches to beat my time.

Posted: 3/5/2009 9:17 PM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

After being royally frustrated with this game and putting it aside for over two years, I've picked it up and continued working on it. Level 1 is looking very nice right now. I had to very very carefully choose where to get hit, where not to, and where to use the gas canisters. The entire run is done with Grant, as he's...pretty much the best. He walks the fastest, his punch can kill almost everything (including some enemies you'd otherwise need Max's bombs for), his secondary attack which stuns enemies is a huge time-saver, and he's the only one who can hack combination locks. Switching to anyone else just wastes time. I also discovered one trick that's unfortunately useless. There's a guy with a shield who tries to push you into the deadly sludge who actually moves faster than you. It's possible to get him to push you exactly where you need to go and give you a speed boost for a while. Unfortunately, to get him to do that, you need to take a really sub-optimal route and overall you're about 10-15 frames faster if you just stun him and walk right past him. But I'm mentioning this in case we discover a use for him later on. I also notice that his sprite being on screen causes the drain pipes to not shoot water out and you can avoid taking damage. This still isn't really a time saver, since it's past all the most dangerous parts and there aren't a whole lot of places where you have to avoid taking hits from then on before getting the health pack. I haven't finished the level yet, but I've passed the toughest part and the rest should be a piece of cake. I've planned the remaining route out pretty well and I'm sure I can do it without many problems.

Posted: 3/6/2009 2:28 AM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Finished level 1. 1158 frames faster than the previous run. http://www.heisanevilgenius.com/Heisanevilgenius-MissionImpossible.fcm

Posted: 3/6/2009 2:57 AM

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Ferret_Warlord

Skilled player (1405)

Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1977
Location: Making an escape

You might want to note that you're still using an old version of FCEU. It desynchs in the wall switch building in the newer non-X versions. Aside from that, you have me quite excited. I've been waiting for and wanting to see this get done! And what's up with those lasers? Grant just walked right through them. O.o

A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.

Posted: 3/6/2009 5:04 AM

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Heisanevilgenius

Active player (405)

Joined: 3/22/2006
Posts: 708

Ferret Warlord wrote:

And what's up with those lasers? Grant just walked right through them. O.o

I discovered a glitch where the lasers don't trigger if you pass through them at the very edge of a 16x16 tile, such as when you hug the wall or go through the very centre of the beam.

Posted: 1/6/2014 5:09 AM

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Harpuia

Joined: 1/6/2014
Posts: 3
Location: Neo Arcadia

I may be late but are you still working on your TAS ? (I also sent you a PM just in case)

Posted: 1/6/2014 7:18 AM

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SoulCal

Active player (333)

Joined: 1/19/2010
Posts: 383
Location: Texas

A TAS of this game would be entertaining to me. Played with all the time when I was little, and want to see this hard as hell game DESTROYED!

Posted: 1/6/2014 6:59 PM

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Harpuia

Joined: 1/6/2014
Posts: 3
Location: Neo Arcadia

Same for me ! I played this game a lot when I was little too, not to be snooty but my knowledge about this game is pretty huge as I finished it so many times, so I thought it would be interesting to work on a TAS. I noticed that none has been done yet, so I registered here to contact some people. I'm waiting to know if Hei is still working on it

Posted: 1/8/2014 12:37 PM

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Guhbadoo

Joined: 12/21/2013
Posts: 4

I ran this game last year and discovered a few tricks. Here's a video of the run: http://www.twitch.tv/guhbadoo/c/2318122 I plan revisiting it at sometime because I think I can improve it over a minute without too much trouble but for now that's the run I have. Some things I found: -In stage 1 some of the switches can be skipped. You don't need to deactivate the claws because Nick can run right through them if he's in a precise location. I think this is only possible with Nick, but I could be wrong. -I could not for the life of me find out what determines the spawn location of the fake ID in stage 3. I thought it may have been set based on health or position at the end of stage 2 but I don't think it is. It has been a while since I messed around with it so again, I could be wrong. The first ID is determined based on when you press start before the stage begins. I didn't try testing the others. -You can walk along the very edge of sensors and not be detected, and you can walk along the edges of sewage in stage 1 and not take damage. -Punching and then immediately moving will cancel the attack animation, allowing you to move more quickly. If I think of anything else I will be sure to post it here.

Posted: 12/6/2014 7:12 PM

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Alyosha

He/Him

Editor, Expert player (3536)

Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2733
Location: US

Hello, New to TASing. I found this game thanks to Meshuggah's 'SDAwithoutTAS' page so thanks to him for that. Anyway here is my TAS for levels 1-3. I tried to learn as much as I could from heisanevilgenius' run but had a lot of trouble syncing it. I also found gubadoo's route helpful. I hope to have the rest of the game done fairly soon. As far as tricks nothing new, I take a slightly different route in that I don't get the health pack in level 1. Here is a WIP http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19251240597323709 EDIT: so far I have reached level 4 and got the keycard in the best spot. I also saved a lot by moving the boat forward at the end of stage 2, and managed to defeat the ninja while right next to the door Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Posted: 12/7/2014 5:19 AM

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solarplex

Active player (471)

Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928

Alyosha wrote:

Here is a WIP http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19251240597323709.

Link to video

Posted: 12/7/2014 6:09 AM

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ars4326

He/Him

Experienced player (765)

Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA

(is it just me or is the sound not working on the encode?) Welcome to tasvideos, Alyosha! Your TAS is looking nice so far. I would love to eventually see a published run of Mission Impossible. One thing I am curious about in your WIP. At about 1:28 in the video, could it be faster to take this route in the room with the ON/OFF switch, instead?

Cutting up through the middle, instead of sneaking around.

Hope to see a finished run from you :)

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9

Posted: 12/7/2014 2:39 PM
(Edited: 12/7/2014 3:08 PM)

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Alyosha

He/Him

Editor, Expert player (3536)

Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2733
Location: US

Hi, and thanks for the welcome. I tested it and its not quicker unfortunately, since that guy in the dark orange talks to you if you get too close to him, and canceling the text box takes longer then going around. Well the run is just about complete, just checking everything over and should be posted soon. If only there were a way to skip that trapped door at the end.... End time is ~24:55, last input is at frame 89713.

Posted: 12/7/2014 3:02 PM

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solarplex

Active player (471)

Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928

ars4326 wrote:

(is it just me or is the sound not working on the encode?)

Youtube hinted at that problem to me, wasnt in the mood to figure it out (dunno why it only happened to this video on fceux tho).

Posted: 12/7/2014 3:58 PM

Post subject: TAS Complete

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Alyosha

He/Him

Editor, Expert player (3536)

Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2733
Location: US

Ok the run is done. Since this is my first one it says I should post here before submitting it, so here you go. Some notes for those curious: Lvl 2: You might notice I get hit once. This is because at full health, after I finish the level and get to stage 3, it spawned an alarm where the key card should be. Taking a hit solved the problem (alternatively it could be firing one less shot form the boat that was the reason, I am not positive.) Lvl 3: After beating the ninja I am slightly to the left of the door. Same reason as above. When ending directly in front of the door and running through level 4 the optimum key card location is an alarm instead. Could just be my route, again not positive. Lvl 6: Anyone who can figure out how to glitch past the trap door after beating the grey suit guy can easily shave a couple minutes off of this run. I could not. Overall I found this game difficult but a good learning experience. Seemingly minor things could completely throw off my route. Anyway here is the final product. Please comment. I hope it is worthy of submission so I can move on to a game that is more fun : ) http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19266734267865337

Posted: 12/7/2014 4:28 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

Woah, where you got that (nick)name? Sounds shamelessly Russian :D

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 12/7/2014 4:30 PM
(Edited: 12/7/2014 5:29 PM)

Post subject: Re: TAS Complete

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solarplex

Active player (471)

Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928

Alyosha wrote:

Ok the run is done. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19266734267865337

Link to video

Posted: 12/7/2014 4:54 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (697)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Awesome, Mission Impossible! Your run looks good up until the last stage. Your planning and overall route look fine but I am sure you could have saved time in the last mission by using your gas grenades more and maybe taking more damage. You hardly use any of them and there are a lot of red briefcases. Maybe on some other stages too. The highlight is of course using the green shield guys, very neat trick.