Topic by MarbleousDave

Posted: 4/24/2011 12:02 AM
(Edited: 9/28/2011 11:56 PM)

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MarbleousDave

He/Him

Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

My Pika Cup TAS (test TAS) Part 1 video removed Part 2 video removed Starting fresh (Round 1 TAS) with Mupen64 rerecording, setting up registered Pokemon with your custom teams is not possible for VS Mewtwo as you can only use rentals. Just use Jackster's save here for a Round 2 TAS if you want a custom team to face Mewtwo: http://www.zophar.net/download_file/12898 Pika Cup: Starmie-only run? Level 20 Starmie Surf/Psychic/Blizzard/Thunder EVs: 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 3 HP, 15 Speed. 15 Special 5 Level 15 rentals are your fillers. Petit Cup: Which Pokemon's the best? Abra? Gastly? Dratini? You decide. Level 30 Abra Psychic/?/?/? EVs: 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 3 HP, 15 Speed. 15 Special 2-5 Level 25 rentals are your fillers. Poke Cup: The three birds and Dragonite are your best bets. Level 55 Articuno Blizzard/BubbleBeam/?/? EVs: 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 3 HP, 15 Speed. 15 Special Level 55 Zapdos Thunder/Drill Peck/Hyper Beam?/? EVs: 65535 Attack, 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 11 HP, 15 Attack, 15 Speed, 15 Special Level 55 Moltres Fire Blast/Double-Edge?/?/? EVs: 65535 Attack, 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 11 HP, 15 Attack, 15 Speed, 15 Special Level 55 Dragonite Hyper Beam/Double-Edge/Agility?/Horn Drill? EVs: 65535 HP, 65535 Attack, 65535 Speed IVs: 10 HP, 15 Attack, 15 Speed 2 Level 50 rentals are your fillers. Prime Cup/Gym Leader Castle: Mewtwo pwns all. Peroid. Level 100 Mewtwo Psychic/Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunder EVs: 65535 Speed, 65535 Special IVs: 3 HP, 15 Speed. 15 Special 5 rentals are your fillers. Vs. Mewtwo: Use Mew's Explosion? or strategize with Venusaur for entertainment? Level 100 Mew Explosion EVs: 65535 Attack IVs: 8 HP, 15 Attack Level 100 Venusaur Double Team/Toxic/Leech Seed/Razor Leaf EVs: 65535 HP, 65535 Special IVs: 15 HP, 1 Attack, 1 Defense, 1 Speed, 15 Special Either one, no rentals

Posted: 4/24/2011 4:51 AM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

Even that Mewtwo isn't going to sweep the Prime Cup or GLC in one attack each, and birds in the Poke Cup are even worse because of limited type coverage and the big loss of time involved in having to switch mid-battle. Fissure and Horn Drill are going to result in faster battles than anything else at that level, and 101 battles of that would be straight-up reject-worthy to watch.

Posted: 4/24/2011 1:05 PM

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N._Harmonik

She/Her

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada

A balance of speed and entertainment isn't going to be easy to obtain for a run of this game. Say, should Round 2 be done as well?

Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?

Posted: 4/25/2011 12:39 AM

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gia

Player (109)

Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223

If the goal is speed ohko moves are the main choice, on round 2 it becomes basically impossible to beat trainers with a single pokemon. ohko moves in the worst case only lose 1 turn to set up agility, which is the same time wasted to do one switch. So its either beating the trainer with two pokemon and a single switch or going for ohkos. A TAS would have greater chances as an entertainment-only movie. Doing different things vs each enemy instead of trying to defeat them all on the first turn (one of them would be the ohko match, another abusing critical hits with pokemon that should lose to the AI if it wasn't for them, another abusing accuracy modifiers, the power of Counter, Bubble/Water Gun/Surf/Hydro Pump Blastoise, showing Metronome funny effects like Fly, size differences between Onyx and Digglet... or Moltres vs the Bug Trainer and using critical Fire Blast on his Caterpie, etc). What I was talking about back then was for an unassisted speedrun, since beating them in one turn is more impressive when you know it wasn't a TAS' luck manipulation. (If anyone can make a device that retrieves the flash save data from the original cart, backup to PC and then restore it back to it let me know, a save manager is what has stopped me from continuing my run :) ) I do believe an speed focused TAS would get a lot of views, but viewers would get bored quickly and jump to the end. And the TAS wouldn't pass peer review anyway.

Posted: 4/27/2011 9:49 PM

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FriedChckn

Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 24

Perhaps to keep the game from getting too repetitive, playing for 100% or not, a different set of rentals could be used each tournament, so we can see most of the pokemon. This WOULD call for a lot of stat-checking and testing and manipulating each of the battles to get an optimal result. It would be funny to see a caterpie come in and see him get a super-effective critical hit and ohko an alakazam with bug bite or something.

Posted: 4/27/2011 9:59 PM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

Bug Bite wouldn't even exist for years after this game, leaving Caterpie with only Tackle for damage--the shot at Alakazam would be quite obviously impossible with that Nerf dart of an attack (never mind you'd be going second anyway--part of ideal battles requires outspeeding all three of your opponents so that it never has to go through any attack animation from the opponent). Apart from going for critical hits (and fixing up accuracy for moves like Thunder, or particularly Horn Drill) there really isn't much you can manipulate from the game. Rentals are so far below the standards of respectable Pokemon that even if there is a set that can blow through all the required fights of a challenge, it's not likely to permit much variance, so you still won't be able to show off the menagerie you might be hoping for. That's speedrunning Pokemon battles for you.

Posted: 9/29/2011 12:11 AM

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MarbleousDave

He/Him

Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

I can take advantage of the "no need to recharge if Hyper Beam faints the opponent" in the Japanese Pokemon Stadium. Rental Level 50 Tauros spamming critical hit Hyper Beams. I know this has been fixed in the international Pokemon Stadium (Pokemon Stadium 2 in Japan)

Posted: 1/29/2012 8:51 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

The fully evolved starters, Pidgeot, the legendary birds and Dragonite can enter the Pika Cup by exploiting the Ditto glitch.

Posted: 1/30/2012 4:44 AM

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Mr._Pwnage

Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223

Sure they can, but there's no reason to actually use them there over such mainstays as Starmie and Alakazam. None of those Pokemon are particularly fast, and speed is important in this generation because without the Quick Claw, even a TAS can't do anything to avoid spending time on the attack animation from a faster opponent.

Posted: 1/20/2016 10:52 PM
(Edited: 1/21/2016 1:40 AM)

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

My girlfriend and I were throwing around ideas about TASing this games' Gym Leader Castle (rentals only, fresh file or registered rental team). Here are rental Pokemon we decided seemed best: 1. Diglett. 123 speed with Fissure, and Rock Slide to crit the flyers who Fissure doesn't affect. Fastest Pokemon with a OHKO move. Used to take out most teams. 2. Jolteon. 158 speed + 138 special + crit STAB Thunder for teams with water/flying Pokemon with speed over Diglett's 123 such as Fearow, Tentacruel, Dodrio, Starmie (Misty always uses), and Scyther + crit Pin Missile to OHKO Sabrina's Alakazam (always uses) and maybe Hypno. 3. Tauros. 138 speed + 129 attack + crit STAB Strength. A must for Lt. Surge's team which always has Surfing Raichu who is faster than Diglett and resistant to Jolteon. 4. Electrode. 168 speed + crit STAB Thunder. Used over Jolteon when the extra 10 speed is needed (Aerodactyl, uhhhhh...). 5. Ponyta. 118 speed with Horn Drill + crit STAB Fire Blast. Used for diversity. 6. Jynx. 123 speed + 123 Special + crit STAB Psychic. Used for diversity. Is there any team that Diglett, Tauros, or Jolteon could not cover with guaranteed OHKO's? Does anyone know when the RNG is determined for the opponents' team choice?

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/20/2016 11:06 PM

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dekutony

Experienced player (632)

Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2208
Location: Guatemala

Maybe the RTA runs of the game might give you a few more ideas?

Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony

Posted: 1/21/2016 1:08 AM

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

Kurabupengin wrote:

Maybe the RTA runs of the game might give you a few more ideas?

Thanks, I read over the guides there to learn the coverages and made changes to my list of Pokemon that should be used. EDIT: Is there a work-around for the graphical issues in the game (Diglett/Dugtrio glitched textures, missing floor texture when using Rock Slide/Strength, etc)

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/23/2016 4:23 AM

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

We started the Gym Castle TAS, it took a while to figure out how all of the RNG works but we have it completely understood now and can manipulate AI team choice (except when they always use a particular Pokemon), crits, and OHKO's. In Brock's gym the only trainer that was a nuisance was trainer #3 who always uses Dugtrio, and his Pidgey uses quick attack on Diglett... so we used Jynx and ice punch'd them all and let Dugtrio miss on us once. All OHKO's through the gym and only once did the AI have a chance to attack at all. A good start. Total time from power-on to receiving the key to Misty's Gym is 7:55.

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/23/2016 4:59 AM

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dekutony

Experienced player (632)

Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2208
Location: Guatemala

Is there any encode of this? Also, are you using BizHawk to make the TAS?

Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony

Posted: 1/23/2016 5:04 AM

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

Kurabupengin wrote:

Is there any encode of this? Also, are you using BizHawk to make the TAS?

Encoding now, and yeah we're on Bizhawk. EDIT: Quicky Encode Link to video EDIT #2: I think we will re-do the first gym due to realizing that Electrode will have no use in the run. We're considering Starmie instead for a few fire teams. We also found a small timesaver in the Pokemon selection screen, the curser jumps directly to Jynx's location after selecting Jolteon so we'll choose Jynx last.

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/23/2016 10:15 PM

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Zarmakuizz

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Joined: 10/12/2013
Posts: 279
Location: France

Nice! Please keep on - and whenever possible, I would suggest to use a different move for the OHKO. Fissure all the time for a 1h movie isn't that entertaining.

Posted: 1/23/2016 10:34 PM

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Niamek

Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?

Zarmakuizz wrote:

Nice! Please keep on - and whenever possible, I would suggest to use a different move for the OHKO. Fissure all the time for a 1h movie isn't that entertaining.

If it's the fastest thing, and that the author is only focused on the fastest thing, well let it be. Concerning the run, good job. :)

Posted: 1/24/2016 12:58 AM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1690
Location: Brasil

no persian for pika cup?or is it not available?

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 1/24/2016 1:01 AM

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arandomgameTASer

He/Him

Editor, Expert player (2013)

Joined: 8/25/2013
Posts: 1199

K what the heck are these complaints. He's using fissure because it's the fastest, and he's not using Persian because it's slower. This ain't a let's play people.

effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser

Posted: 1/24/2016 1:28 AM

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

Zarmakuizz wrote:

Nice! Please keep on - and whenever possible, I would suggest to use a different move for the OHKO. Fissure all the time for a 1h movie isn't that entertaining.

We will add as much variety possible. All moves used so far have been OHKO (and I'm certain all will be) and we've used Fissure, Rock Slide, Horn Drill, and Ice Punch.

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/24/2016 3:38 AM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1690
Location: Brasil

persian is one of the fastest pokes in the game in terms of speed,and i asked about persian for PIKA CUP not for gym leader castle,persian can critical hit very often so he doesn't need necessarily to use super effective attacks

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 1/24/2016 7:28 PM
(Edited: 1/25/2016 2:42 AM)

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

We compared some attack animation lengths, Horn Drill is 59 frames faster than Fire Blast for example. So the question is should we always use a faster animation move over a slower one, even if that means moderately reducing the variety of moves used? We personally think that doing the fastest thing is best due to the already repetitive nature of the speedrun. All 6 Pokemon on our team will still be used, and you'll see plenty of moves aside from Fissure and Horn Drill as is. Going for bit more variety could end up costing well over a minute in the end.

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit

Posted: 1/24/2016 8:21 PM

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andypanther

Any

Former player

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1093
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Go for speed, this will be put in the vault anyway. I'm really interested to see how much time can be saved compared to RTA runs.

Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.

Posted: 1/24/2016 8:48 PM

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Zarmakuizz

He/Him

Joined: 10/12/2013
Posts: 279
Location: France

Oh well, I take back my previous statement. The commentaries are going to repeat themselves anyway. You may prioritize speed ^^

Posted: 1/25/2016 2:05 AM

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alec_kermit

Active player (411)

Joined: 2/29/2012
Posts: 192

andypanther wrote:

Go for speed, this will be put in the vault anyway. I'm really interested to see how much time can be saved compared to RTA runs.

Ditto Here are the animation lengths, in frames, of all the moves that will be used in our TAS: Ice Punch (102) Rock Slide (132) Horn Drill (139) Fissure, Earthquake (140) Thunder (Starmie) (152) Fire Blast (Tauros) (162) Thunder (Jolteon) (162) Strength (172) Bubblebeam (174) Psychic (192) Fire Blast (Ponyta) (198) EDIT: After restarting the TAS we've saved 6 total seconds after completing Brock's Gym.

https://www.youtube.com/user/aleckermit