Since I don't have any artistic obligations I've been trying to take this game apart a little bit. I made a test run which goes through the forest and defeats Solvaring. What a long arse battle this is going to be regardless. Being that I am wizzing through without defeating enemies I figured this would be faster...however after going through that 45+ turn battle with Solvaring I've decided to change my idea on enemies. I think I will manipulate easy battles along the way to build my elements before trying to face him...while on this note I must also mention that I skip my turn a few times. There are more then 45 turns but I had to skip a few of them because no matter what I miss on those turns. ALL attacks, even healing misses when the game decides this...I haven't figured out how I could possibly work that.
I'm considering my path as well. I've run into a dilemma on this. If I go right to the forest...which I can I save having to go up to the castle one time. Since i don't really need bread or healing items as much as the SDA run did I just skipped it...but going to the inn would allow me to use death as a shortcut and warp me back to the castle where I do have to end up anyway. I'm not sure if this will save time, but I have a feeling that it will save some so I will try it.
Any suggestions and helpful advice is more then welcome. I'm trampling new ground here, I have to consider a different strategy then a console run because in theory I can manipulate whether I am hit or not...especially in this game where a lot of attacks are avoidable just by moving right.
THIS IS NOT OPTIMIZED. It looks a little sloppy. I mean it's just a test I don't want to spend an extra 5 hours making it look pretty when there is no point yet.
TEST 1: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5281/Quest64USA.m64
TEST 2: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5377/Quest64USA2.m64
TEST 3: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5420/Quest64USA3.m64
OPTIMIZED 1: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5536/Quest64USAOP1.m64
OPTIMIZED 2: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5583/Quest64USAOP2.m64
TEST 4: THROUGH THE CAVES
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5596/Quest64USA4.m64
OPTIMIZED 3: TO WEST CARMAGH AREA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5742/Quest64USAop3.m64
i like the game, i played it hours for hours to get through(it was like a nightmare for me because i couldn't speak/understand the english at the time it came out) but..
are you going to take all this magic upgrades :P(100% run xD??) ??
or just an any% :/
well ill download your movie and check out what you have done until now!
---
edit:
wow baby what a boring fight even with fastforward :x!:/ there must be a solution :/!
and ps: you didnt take the magic upgrade before the last !! you just walked to it and then you go away
Even if he doesn't go 100%, the fact that there are level-ups literally sitting there waiting to be picked up can be useful. IIRC, there are several that are only a few seconds out of the way throughout the game.
Levelling one element only seems like the best tactic to get more powerful attack spells earlier. Also, if you level the right element to level 35(?) you get the Exit spell.
Trying 127.0.0.1...
telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
I would think an any% run would be a great prerequisite to a 100%, especially since there is much to figure out the first time through.
As for Spirits, I would think you'd go for Avalanche straight away and every boss battle afterwards is much easier.
i like the game, i played it hours for hours to get through(it was like a nightmare for me because i couldn't speak/understand the english at the time it came out) but..
are you going to take all this magic upgrades :P(100% run xD??) ??
or just an any% :/
well ill download your movie and check out what you have done until now!
---
edit:
wow baby what a boring fight even with fastforward :x!:/ there must be a solution :/!
and ps: you didnt take the magic upgrade before the last !! you just walked to it and then you go away
I can't do a 100% run of this game mostly because it would involve a lot of battling to get the left over spirits. As far as I know there is only about 100 free spirits. I could be wrong though...
Yes that fight is boring. I will be collecting as many spirits I can as fast as I possibly can.
JSmith wrote:
Even if he doesn't go 100%, the fact that there are level-ups literally sitting there waiting to be picked up can be useful. IIRC, there are several that are only a few seconds out of the way throughout the game.
Levelling one element only seems like the best tactic to get more powerful attack spells earlier. Also, if you level the right element to level 35(?) you get the Exit spell.
Yes, that does help. That allows me to become very powerful quite fast...
Exit and also there is a spell that protects me completely for 1-2 turns which I can hopefully manipulate. I plan to get earth and water to level 50 I think. water mixed with earth becomes potent as well.
ledauphinbenoit wrote:
I would think an any% run would be a great prerequisite to a 100%, especially since there is much to figure out the first time through.
As for Spirits, I would think you'd go for Avalanche straight away and every boss battle afterwards is much easier.
I definitely plan on this. You're right..planning this the first time through will be hard. I hope I can even do it. This game is reletively short without battles. I think it will be entertaining just to see someone kill this game in a short time knowing how long it normally takes.
I remember beating Mammon with 41 Earth and enough Water to get the magic drain. Just go up to him and keep beating on him. I say 41 Earth because (without manipulation), the shield almost never lasts 3 turns. Keep in mind, that's:
0: Shield
1: Smack
2: Smack
3: Reshield;
Lather, rinse, repeat. At 40 Earth, I only rarely got the shield for 3 turns, usually having it last only 2, whereas 41 Earth almost guaranteed 3 turns.
The only spell that would really do better than constant melee would be Avalanche, but that needs some luck manipulation, and it isn't very effective in fights where there aren't lots of targets, or a really big target (like Mammon). 50 water isn't necessary at all, but it helps to get points in water almost immediately.
You have my full support on this game. It's really long, and seeing it completed quickly would be like watching porn... Almost seriously there. o_O
Watched the WIP. Everything seemed pretty well done. You did skip the next to last spirit as was mentioned by someone already.
I would vote to stop in at the Inn before fighting Solvering. Both, because it will most likely save time and because there already is enough "running around" in this game so any chance to minimize running through already covered territory is a plus on the side of entertainment.
In my estimation, the Solvering battle is really the "hump" to get over for this game in terms of a TAS. You'll have some decent spells by the next boss (or at least Avalanche at 24 Earth) so they won't be as tough. Whether it's easier to do some leveling on the way to Solvering is probably worth investigating.
While power staffing might be a possible solution to killing, I always stuck with Avalanche for its simplicity. You don't have to buff anything or worry about things wearing off. You can stand far away, avoiding close attacks (and sometimes longer animations). Most attacks from far away are avoidable. It just works. Even with Mammon, I remember hitting him with 2-3 boulders a cast and he would go down very quickly.
You might find some better battle strategies if you test some things out to see what you can find. I hope you decide to continue with this run.
I thought the fastest way to deal damage was pumping the Fire spell that makes you staff melee crazy buffed...
Perhaps it is, but loading everything on earth allows me to get the shield which I won't get hurt for up to 3 turns apparently. I know someone will ask why I don't manipulate misses. If someone can figure out HOW I will do it. turns are decided many moves in advance and I don't know how possible it is yet, though I will try. Maybe future runs will involve fire? I'll play with it...
IMPblackbelt wrote:
I remember beating Mammon with 41 Earth and enough Water to get the magic drain. Just go up to him and keep beating on him. I say 41 Earth because (without manipulation), the shield almost never lasts 3 turns. Keep in mind, that's:
0: Shield
1: Smack
2: Smack
3: Reshield;
Lather, rinse, repeat. At 40 Earth, I only rarely got the shield for 3 turns, usually having it last only 2, whereas 41 Earth almost guaranteed 3 turns.
The only spell that would really do better than constant melee would be Avalanche, but that needs some luck manipulation, and it isn't very effective in fights where there aren't lots of targets, or a really big target (like Mammon). 50 water isn't necessary at all, but it helps to get points in water almost immediately.
You have my full support on this game. It's really long, and seeing it completed quickly would be like watching porn... Almost seriously there. o_O
I plan on getting earth to level 50 for power regardless. Depending on how easy manipulation proves I will also try the possibility of all fire or getting no water. I will see about it. Yes seeing this game done so fast would be so awesome...I think it can be done in half the time of the SDA run, and that was pretty quick to me. In fact now that I've been playing it, going through the game manipulating it will almost be as fast as a normal console run getting mostly powered up in all elements.
ledauphinbenoit wrote:
Watched the WIP. Everything seemed pretty well done. You did skip the next to last spirit as was mentioned by someone already.
I would vote to stop in at the Inn before fighting Solvering. Both, because it will most likely save time and because there already is enough "running around" in this game so any chance to minimize running through already covered territory is a plus on the side of entertainment.
In my estimation, the Solvering battle is really the "hump" to get over for this game in terms of a TAS. You'll have some decent spells by the next boss (or at least Avalanche at 24 Earth) so they won't be as tough. Whether it's easier to do some leveling on the way to Solvering is probably worth investigating.
While power staffing might be a possible solution to killing, I always stuck with Avalanche for its simplicity. You don't have to buff anything or worry about things wearing off. You can stand far away, avoiding close attacks (and sometimes longer animations). Most attacks from far away are avoidable. It just works. Even with Mammon, I remember hitting him with 2-3 boulders a cast and he would go down very quickly.
You might find some better battle strategies if you test some things out to see what you can find. I hope you decide to continue with this run.
Yes my new tested route has me going through town getting the element and stopping at the inn. I agree that the solvering battle is the hardest, even in the SDA run it was a very long battle. I will probably get avalanch mostly because I can manipulate up to four hits...that's considerable. I'll be playing some more. I think this game will end up being very short if I do it right...
Sounds like a job for Nitrodon! (Or some other ROM hacking and luck manipulation guru)
By the way ... I'm eager to see this run finished! That's one game that I liked a lot when I was younger. I used to rent it all the time, and then scream as my memory pack was not compatible with the game or something (the game crashed because of the memory pack, which was non-standard).
I just re-watched the SDA run of the game, and it looks very good. Of course, I wouldn't suggest copying that run for the TAS, but it can be a pretty good "guide" or something.
Good luck with the run!
Sounds like a job for Nitrodon! (Or some other ROM hacking and luck manipulation guru)
By the way ... I'm eager to see this run finished! That's one game that I liked a lot when I was younger. I used to rent it all the time, and then scream as my memory pack was not compatible with the game or something (the game crashed because of the memory pack, which was non-standard).
I just re-watched the SDA run of the game, and it looks very good. Of course, I wouldn't suggest copying that run for the TAS, but it can be a pretty good "guide" or something.
Good luck with the run!
Yes I figured I might be able to get help from him. He's really good at the memory stuff.
I'm using the SDA run as a guide but for a TAS a lot of his strategies aren't needed...
Alright guys, here is the new one. This is to Solvering getting a total of 16 spirits before fighting Solvering. I used a different battling technique..including leveling up before Solvering by manipulating strong enemies to be easy. Very nice. This is one more spirit then in the SDA run I do believe at a lot faster rate of speed. This movie appears longer then my other test because I went to the castle town and "death-warped" myself back to that inn...if I had gone back to the current position in my last test it would have been more then 15 minutes I think. Let me know what you think!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5377/Quest64USA2.m64
The WIP looked good, although I could see at some places that you hug walls and that slows you down a little bit (like one set of stairs in the starting castle, and then some walls elsewhere). It's clearly visible at full speed.
Other than that, it was good. The fight was still a little boring, but hey you can't do much about it. It's the first fight, and I think it's intended to be boring. :)
Good job, continue the great work!
The WIP looked good, although I could see at some places that you hug walls and that slows you down a little bit (like one set of stairs in the starting castle, and then some walls elsewhere). It's clearly visible at full speed.
Other than that, it was good. The fight was still a little boring, but hey you can't do much about it. It's the first fight, and I think it's intended to be boring. :)
Good job, continue the great work!
That's just a test. I am far too much of a perfectionist to be allowing that kind of inaccuracy in a complete run...hehe...I will optimize it when I think I have a good plan down for it. New game...some testing...doing a new game is kind of new grounds for me too. Usually I try to find mistakes and correct them...heh.
One thing you might want to do is put the text speed on max. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that though I wasn't paying that much attention. Do you think sub 2 hours is possible? There's A LOT of walking in this game so the shorter the better or it will get boring fast.
One thing you might want to do is put the text speed on max. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that though I wasn't paying that much attention. Do you think sub 2 hours is possible? There's A LOT of walking in this game so the shorter the better or it will get boring fast.
doesn't seem to make any difference. all text can be brought right to it's end by taping "a" and going to the next message after only one frame. it takes more time for the windows to apear and disappear then it does for the messeges to scroll...sorry if that's hard to understand. I can't figure out how to word it this late at night. :P
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
e: You can call me Reading Joe!
What I didn't turbo through was fairly interesting, though I wonder if Solvaring would have been faster with just constant melee and dodge tactics. Regardless, keep at it!
What I didn't turbo through was fairly interesting, though I wonder if Solvaring would have been faster with just constant melee and dodge tactics. Regardless, keep at it!
Aren't you a little too close to Solvaring to dodge his attacks after you melee him?
e: You can call me Reading Joe!
What I didn't turbo through was fairly interesting, though I wonder if Solvaring would have been faster with just constant melee and dodge tactics. Regardless, keep at it!
Aye, you can dodge his far attack very easy, but in order to dodge the close attack you have to miss. Regardless of how much HP ups I get it will be faster I think to dodge his far attacks. Now I just have to figure out how in the world I'm going to manipulate this game to do what I want. As of right now I'm stuck doing what it wants...as can be seen by a few skipped turns.
As for just continuing to hit him. I think I might do that. The def down is a nice touch and does give me the ability to take 4 or so more HP...but only for a couple turns and totally evens out from having to us my Dew Drop...which I want to save for later in the game.
I manually lowered the number of earth spirits I had. It didn't desync at all! The same events happened exactly how I played them out! Until of course the last turn...taking one away extended the battle by one turn...I'm considering chopping off a 30 seconds at the beginning by not getting the spirit in the hey...at the sacrifice of one turn in Solvering.
On that other note it is very possible to GAIN one turn if I get more battle won spirit. I really don't think that will be as much of a time saver.
What do you guys think?
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Halamantariel wrote:
Aren't you a little too close to Solvaring to dodge his attacks after you melee him?
If memory serves me well, you can just barely dodge the huge dirt explosion if you melee from the farthest distance. I used to do it like that when I played the game way back in the day, since I (as I said before) thought that the staff was the strongest attack up until beating Zephyr. I could be wrong, but it's worth looking in to, since it should speed up the battle a bit.
Why doesn't Fire Fox have the word melee in its dictionary?
Aren't you a little too close to Solvaring to dodge his attacks after you melee him?
If memory serves me well, you can just barely dodge the huge dirt explosion if you melee from the farthest distance. I used to do it like that when I played the game way back in the day, since I (as I said before) thought that the staff was the strongest attack up until beating Zephyr. I could be wrong, but it's worth looking in to, since it should speed up the battle a bit.
Why doesn't Fire Fox have the word melee in its dictionary?
I'll give it a shot man, thanks for the help. I was never able to dodge that attack. I'm also looking into the possiblity of not going to Dondoron again. It appears as though in the SDA run he doesn't even bother talking to the king...you can complete that part of the game without returning the orb? geez....
I gave fire a shot. It does make the battle a lot faster but I run into one problem. What about later in the game where I might need the earth shield? As much as I wish I could make the enemies miss every time...that's just not happening from what I can see right now...heh. But yeah fire allows me to take 8-10 damage 3 times a turn...great move but has some disadvantages later on. I don't know if it's more powerful then Avalanche. Perhaps I should power Fire to 16 to Solvering and power Earth from then on?
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, I have this sneaking suspicion that your fastest tactic for Zephyr will also be melee, but I could be wrong. Do you think you can level Fire up to the Staff Charge spell, and then shift all focus to Earth?
Meh. If you don't power up Fire and still melee Solvaring, is it faster than using Earth spells with the occasional MP refresher? If that is the case, don't bother with Fire. The amount of time you're saving in non-boss fights using a strong multi-hitting spell is greater than the time lost using spells on Solvaring.
Well, I have this sneaking suspicion that your fastest tactic for Zephyr will also be melee, but I could be wrong. Do you think you can level Fire up to the Staff Charge spell, and then shift all focus to Earth?
Meh. If you don't power up Fire and still melee Solvaring, is it faster than using Earth spells with the occasional MP refresher? If that is the case, don't bother with Fire. The amount of time you're saving in non-boss fights using a strong multi-hitting spell is greater than the time lost using spells on Solvaring.
Well I made a third test run. It saves considerable time on Solvering. I think I might go with my tactic to level up earth after. power staff is totally useless unless you actually use a staff...unless I am doing it wrong...heh... Anyway give this a look, what do you think?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5420/Quest64USA3.m64
