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Posted: 7/21/2004 4:21 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Frenom wrote:
Ah.. just finished Mega Man X again. 2mins better then my last run and 1 min better then Wodball's run. :D
Thanks, will have a look at it when there's time for it.
Posted: 7/21/2004 5:17 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Frenom; Did u do the Vile bug or wtf everybody is talking about in ur timeattack? :D
Posted: 7/21/2004 5:36 PM
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Frenom
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 359
Location: Borlänge - Sweden
Jupp.. The glitch everybody is talking about is that you can skip the little cutscene with X, Zero and Vile at the first Sigma area. scubed wrote: Climb to the top of the ladder and wait for Zero and vile to talk. When you are near the top of the ladder, jump off, then wall jump off of the side of the ladder to the wall, then wall jump to the other side of the room and fall into the door without touching the ground, which is what activates the sequence.
Wheeeehaaa.. Yaaayy..
Posted: 7/21/2004 5:47 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Did you also improve the points complained about in Wodball's movie?
Posted: 7/21/2004 9:07 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
If someone could to a timeattack at this game under 30 minutes, he would be my new idol :D
Posted: 7/22/2004 4:05 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Btw Frenom i saw ur timeattack and i thought it was great! I really wonder if it could be done any faster.. Could it? It looked perfect to me.
Posted: 7/22/2004 7:04 PM
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Wodball
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50
I'm started working on version 2 and now that Frenom's run has been accepted, I do have a question. He uses invulnerability in the same places that I used in my last run. Now I was planning to cut out the invulnerability bits in my version 2 and focus either on adding time via evasion (AKA abusing collision detections) or using charged rolling shield. But since Bisqwit accepted this run with the invulnerability attached, does this mean that I should leave in the parts where I use it (Sigma 1-3) or should I just keep going with my original plan, even though it might give me a worse time? Like I said before, I take listen to all criticisms, and people like Boco have commented that frequent use of invulnerability should be discouraged. Granted, that's people's opinion, but I think that I see some truth to this. Anyway, I finished the intro and Chill Penguin so far, but I don't think I'll report on the frames and times until all 8 bosses are done. --Woody P.S. I now know it is possible to destroy those stupid machines in the beginning of Spark Mandriller's stage without resorting to tornados and losing the time for the tornado to form. Thanks Frenom for showing me in the smv, and others for bringing it up. It will exponentially increase my rerecord count though. I can critique Frenom's run later.
Posted: 7/22/2004 8:28 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Boco always find something to critisicm ;P
Posted: 7/23/2004 1:12 AM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Concerning Frenom's video.. Awakening Road, Spark Mandriller's level, Armor Armage's level, and especially Launcher Octopuld's level can be improved. Armor Armage and Sting Chameleao fights can be more interesting without losing time. There are missed shots against Launcher Octopuld II and Bospider. Lambda Bambda can be improved. D-REX can be improved. There is a total of ONE location (out of the many you used) where you can't do without charged Chameleon Sting without losing time. Only use it there. ..and stop relying on Storm Tornado so much. Remember that dashing gives you a +1 bonus to the X-Buster, which means double damage for uncharged shots.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 7/23/2004 1:04 PM
Post subject: just saw the new video
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asteron
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
Just saw the new video now and thought it looked very nice. Huge improvement over the previous version. Couple of sticking points though. A few of the stages have large enemies that can't be beat without slowing down (the helicopter in the first level and vacuum cleaners in the water level come to mind). It seems like it would be much better to come at these enemies with the buster fully charged already (or am i missing something and the three pellets are better?). Also I dont see the reason for using the tornado gun in some of the levels. It required stopping in most places but those enemies were beaten earlier with just the buster I thought. I agree though that using the cameleon stealth less would be more impressive... a caveat about using the shield though would be to avoid picking up the powerups the enemies drop if it would refill a mirror. an easy fix would just be to use the shield while fully charged. These suggestions might save 30 seconds I would think or I could be totally wrong and not understand something about the tornado gun and charged shots.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Posted: 7/23/2004 1:19 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Wodball wrote:
But since Bisqwit accepted this run with the invulnerability attached
I don't know very much of this game, and I didn't know of an invulnerability either. Now that I seem to know, I still don't know if it should affect my decisions.
Cazlab wrote:
Boco always find something to critisicm ;P
That's a good thing :)
Posted: 7/23/2004 4:41 PM
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Cazlab
Joined: 7/5/2004
Posts: 551
Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Yeah it sure is, but it seems like he dosen't like the timeattacks, just complaining ;P I don't complain couse i know that i can't do it better myself. But I understand why they need critique, couse then the timeattacks becomes even faster & better!
Posted: 7/24/2004 1:08 AM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
It's just that I'm familiar with the game so I can see things people might miss. It also kind of bothers me if people make assumptions (like that Storm Tornado is the fastest weapon to kill everything because it's multi-hit) and don't test other possibilities (both runners used Storm Tornado against Anglerge when I'm pretty sure Electric Spark is faster). Right now I'm wondering if it's faster to go the upper path (through the pipe and over the place with Dig Labour) in Burnin' Noumander's level.. if it doesn't lose time it would at least be more interesting because it shows off another glitch in the game.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 7/24/2004 1:42 AM
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Wodball
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50
I am actually currently doing that! How freaky... I stopped for a little time to take pictures of where the enemies are supposed to be, since you can't see them after doing the glitch. There's also a wall in the upper path right where the subtank is. 5 kicks gets you over, so long as you get maximum height from the previous jump. And yeah, sparking the fish robot is definitely faster. I checked it out after I published my previous run. --Woody
Posted: 7/24/2004 9:22 PM
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Wodball
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50
Okay, after about 200 rerecords, the roof run is a little slower, about 17 frames slower. Personally, I think it's better if I leave it in, even if the segment is longer. That way, the movie exploits another glitch. Understably, people might be miffed that I lost about .3 seconds, but I just think that it needs to be in there. It shows a different way to handle things. --Woody
Posted: 7/24/2004 9:31 PM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Losing ".3 seconds," as you put it, won't be noticed if you make up for it elsewhere. For example, no video yet has managed to perfectly jump over those big "bug helicopters" in the first stage. No, I don't know their real names. Guess that's a "Rockman-ban" for me >_<
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 7/24/2004 9:38 PM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Has it been proven that using the fully charged bolts on bosses is more time efficient than using the green bolts? It seems that charging to green bolt takes less time than charging from green to blue bolt. Not that this would come in handy all that often.
Posted: 7/24/2004 9:58 PM
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Wodball
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50
feitclub, I'll have a response for your comment in 3 days. --Woody P.S. Some bosses are weaker to X-buster than others. Chill Pengiun takes more damage from busters than Storm Eagle. A green bolt on Storm Eagle takes off 1, while it takes off 2 on Chill Pengiun. At least, that's how I remember it, anyway...
Posted: 7/24/2004 11:07 PM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
feitclub wrote:
"bug helicopters"
You're close. It's Bee Blader.
Blechy wrote:
Has it been proven that using the fully charged bolts on bosses is more time efficient than using the green bolts?
If I recall correctly..: Level 0 charge (normal shot) is 1 damage normal, 2 when dashing, and is "eaten" when it deals damage. Level 1 charge (green bolt) is also 1 damage normal, 2 when dashing. The difference is that if it kills a target it keeps going, so a single bolt can kill multiple targets. Level 2 charge (blue blast) is 3 damage normal, 4 when dashing, and continues if it kills. Level 3 charge (pink blast) is four shots (one backward, three forward), all with the same properties as the Level 2 charge. But it also penetrates shields.
Wodball wrote:
P.S. Some bosses are weaker to X-buster than others. Chill Pengiun takes more damage from busters than Storm Eagle. A green bolt on Storm Eagle takes off 1, while it takes off 2 on Chill Pengiun. At least, that's how I remember it, anyway...
You were maybe dashing at the time. It gives a +1 bonus.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 7/24/2004 11:21 PM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
I just referred to the videos for ease- without dashing, a green bolt did 2 damage to chill penguin, and 1 to storm eagle. the blue bolt did 3, and 2. I'm not sure which is the "norm", but regardless my question goes somewhat unanswered- mathematically, the higher the ratio of green damage to blue damage, the more effective it would be to use the green bolt, since charging up to blue takes longer than a boss' recovery time after a hit, while green takes a little less. So basically my question is, which is more efficient: firing with level 1 shot so it will hit as soon as the boss stops recovering, or firing with level 2 shot as soon as you are charged?
Posted: 7/24/2004 11:36 PM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Hm, really? So I guess those damage numbers only count for normal enemies and not for bosses. Charging to level 1 takes very little time at all, so it can be done inside the boss's recovery time. So level 1 damage over recovery time > level 2 damage over charge time ? level 1 : level 2. (that is, using the numbers 1 and 3, it's faster to use level 1 charge iff recovery time is 1/3 or less of charge time.. basic logic)
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 7/31/2004 12:49 AM
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Wodball
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2004
Posts: 50
Anyone feel like some more X? I did it! I did what everyone asked for and I improved on my run overall! The final time is 32:01, which is 1 min 46 seconds faster than Frenom's latest run. Here's what I do now: 1) Invulnerability time with Chameleon Sting is cut to one part, where I felt it was absolutely neccessary to use. (End of Sigma 2, before the Face boss.) 2) Uncharged buster use increased with effectiveness! To settle the argument in the thread, dashing only affects the uncharged bolts, not the charged ones. (Green and blue) This means that the blue bolt is only faster for bosses like Chill Penguin, who have a weakness to X-Buster. Storm Eagle does not, so the blue charged bolts do the same damage as a dashing uncharged bolt, which is faster for invulnerability cycles! 3) I manipulate the bosses! Chill Penguin never dashes, Bospider never drops spiders, Storm Eagle never leaves the screen, Armored Armadillo only uses his roll in the beginning, etc. 4) I exploit a few more glitches that Frenom didn't. Namely, the Flame Mammoth roof-run, which creates invisible enemies in one area, and a small Castlevania style pushing glitch on the flying platforms in Storm Eagle. See for yourself. http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wcsange/Wodball-mmx-version-2.smv Also, feitclub, I kill both Bee Bladers fast enough to clear each part with one jump. --Woody
Posted: 7/31/2004 1:27 AM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
This is the single greatest tools-assisted run of any game I have ever seen.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 7/31/2004 4:49 AM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Wodball wrote:
feitclub, I kill both Bee Bladers fast enough to clear each part with one jump.
The bar hath been raised on this game. Great stuff. I have no complaints. Nothing seemed wasteful. Everything appears optimal. I didn't even have a problem with the invincibility abuse, but it looks cooler to see you bob and weave anyway. Can't wait to see someone top this...
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 7/31/2004 4:55 AM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
feitclub wrote:
Everything appears optimal.
I disagree. It appears that a few frames (probably no more than 5 or 10, most definitely not a whole second) are lost on Icy Penguigo II. But I believe this apparent delay is to keep him from using his slide attack, so it's actually faster even if there appears to be room for improvement. But really, this is the greatest time attack I've ever seen.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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