This is a TAS of the n64 classic "The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time". It is the first run (that I know of) that is under 2 hours and the first run that uses the "Reverse Bottle Adventure Glitch" which is what made this time possible. Using this glitch you can instantly update something in your inventory or quest item sub-screen.
Aims for fastest time
Uses death as shortcut
Takes damage to save time
Abuses programming errors in the game
No predefined saves
Genre: Action
Genre: Adventure
This is my first submission if I left something out of these comments let me know.
Bisqwit: Congratulations on your first TAS movie. I believe you gained a lot
of experience in the making of it. However, as many audience members have pointed
out, this movie is lacking in a few aspects we keep important. Compared to the
published movie, it does not do as good job following the guidelines,
such as "never wait for anything unless absolutely necessary", even though
it completes the game faster due to new techniques.
As you already have realized yourself, part of it is because you
did not use frame advance in the making of this movie.
As such, because this movie does not really represent well the quality we uphold
on this site, and because the votes cast on this submission are not significantly
in favor of publishing it, I am rejecting this submission.
I wish you good luck for your next TAS work, but I recommend you
gather experience from some less demanding TAS project first.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
I haven't watched this run, nor have I watched the published run, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents for this type of condition.
There reaches a certain length of movie where the argument moves from "faster is better" to "entertaining is better". I don't know where this line is drawn exactly, but a run like Donkey Kong (NES) derives most of it's entertainment from the sheer speed it's beaten, and not much could be done to make it more entertaining while still beating the game in a reasonable time.
However, the longer the movie gets, the more chances occur for small entertaining bits to be thrown in. Because of the length of movie, these little bits don't affect the overall enjoyment that comes from speed, since a few seconds missed over an hour long movie seem miniscule. This can backfire though, when a long movie misses chances to throw in these little entertaining bits, or worse, makes blatant mistakes, which can certainly cause the movie to become less enjoyable. And this movie seems to have many instances of that occurring, from what I've read.
So, if you watched this movie, and thought it was enjoyable because it broke a record and was fast, then that's your opinion and certainly a valid one. But if you watched it and the lack of optimization caused you to not enjoy it, that's your opinion and also a valid one (although it is rarer for a submission to pop up with these types of problems).
For a longer look at another movie that had very similar arguments, see Vatchern's RCR submission
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5086
So, if enough people found that the lack of optimization made the movie not enjoyable, it shouldn't be published. Any arguments about whether the original should have been published are moot, because it's been done and is not going to be undone. See the 3 NES Track and Field movies for proof of this. So yeah, my two cents about the issue in general.
Wait if this movie sux, that means the published one...
Let me put it this way:
Published movie: rather highly optimized gameplay. poor routeplanning due to lack of knowledge about time saving glitches.
This movie: Much better routeplanning, gameplay is incredibly slow and sloppy.
To analogize: Consider the original SMB3 movie by morimoto -- very well optimized and entertaining gameplay. Now imagine that a glitch in SMB3 were discovered that allowed warping straight to the final boss at any time after the first level. However, the movie made using this glitch takes 8 minutes to beat level one, and gets hit several times, unnecessarily. But its final time is 9 minutes 30 seconds, 1 and a half minutes faster than morimoto's.
Would you argue that that video should be published, obsoleting morimoto's?
Would you inflexibly cry that it was better because it was faster, even though the gameplay is inarguably worse?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Actually, I never thought about that. The DKR tas is very rough around the edges, but since it's the first run of the game, we are more foriving to it. You could also say that the "roughness" was masked because in this game everything flows well. I guess you could say that the DKR run was consistently "rough."
The mistakes in OOT are more glaring since they break the continuity of run. I didn't see that happening too much in DKR. I guess you could say that this game was inconsistently rough in some places, and smooth in others.
that was a well-thought out cogent and persuasive analysis
i will take the side of the "no voters" now
By that reasoning, why was Bisqwit's SC2 rejected?
I think Raiscan meant "It was the first OOT run". Before the first OOT movie was published, there were already N64 games tased. And the popularity of OOT is a LOT greater than the popularity of SC2.
The general public weren't screaming for a SC2 run were they? Were they screaming for a OOT run? No, they were demanding it.
The general public weren't screaming for a SC2 run were they? Were they screaming for a OOT run? No, they were demanding it.
I don't see anywhere in the site rules where it says popular demand should be a factor in determining whether a movie gets accepted or not. If we would actually have followed the rules, the OoT run should have been rejected and the SC2 one accepted.
I really want to watch this submission, but mupen fails me, so I'm hoping for an avi to emerge.
While I cannot comment on the movie, I'd gladly vote yes on this discussion. It's highly entertaining. But I guess that'll change in a couple of pages...
I don't see anywhere in the site rules where it says popular demand should be a factor in determining whether a movie gets accepted or not. If we would actually have followed the rules, the OoT run should have been rejected and the SC2 one accepted.
Uh, I'm confused. First you said that there are no rules saying popularity should be a factor. I think you would also find out that there are no rules prohibiting popularity from being a factor too.
So what rules didn't we follow?
Judging guidelines are decidedly loose. They can use their own judgement, the voting feedback, and whatever other factors they want to sway their decision. Of course, proper judges make reasonable decisions.
Regardless if factoring popularity into a decision is reasonable or not, is up to your own code of judgement. I say it should be a factor. I remember Bisqwit himself once said "We need more N64 tases" when accepting a movie. If that's not using popularity to factor into a voting decision, I don't know what is. And if the site admin does it, why can't other judges do it too?
The general public weren't screaming for a SC2 run were they? Were they screaming for a OOT run? No, they were demanding it.
I don't see anywhere in the site rules where it says popular demand should be a factor in determining whether a movie gets accepted or not. If we would actually have followed the rules, the OoT run should have been rejected and the SC2 one accepted.
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
Anyway, considering which glitches were known to the TAS community at the time of submission, Guanobowl's original OoT run was reasonably well optimized. This run (at least the part of it that I could watch), looked like it could have been a real-time speed run by a mediocre player.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Tool-Assisted Speedrun != Tool-Assisted Entertainmentrun. Some videos aren't particularly interesting or entertaining, but they exist to show what can be abused and those who have played the game in the past can appreciate it. It's usually the people who haven't played those games that won't quite understand how epic some runs really are. What do you think would happen if we removed every non-star movie from the site? Not all movies are of equal entertainment either. And that's subjective anyway.
Just my two cents.
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
That's because many people hadn't ever played SC2, so they didn't know the planning behind the movie. If you would ignore the people who shouldn't have voted because they didn't know the game (which I think would be a logical rule to add), there wouldn't have been so many unfavorable votes or comments.
Saxxon. Please explain how your previous post relates to the discussion about this submission?
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
I was referring to the discussion you have quoted, actually. Although loosely. I'll add something constructive when time permits :)
If you would ignore the people who shouldn't have voted because they didn't know the game (which I think would be a logical rule to add)
Whoo boy. Aren't we trying to find runs that appeal to the casual viewer? I don't think casual viewer would know what SC2 is (more often than not).
What is the point of publishing a run? I can see two things:
1) To showcase entertaining movies to the casual viewer.
2) To reward the movie maker.
I believe 1 is the main goal, and 2 is just a side effect. Why restrict voting? You won't get an accurate sample size of data. Skewed statistics, my friend, skewed statistics.
Saxxon. Please explain how your previous post relates to the discussion about this submission?
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
I was referring to the discussion you have quoted, actually. Although loosely. I'll add something constructive when time permits :)
I knew what you were replying to, my point was that it was a pretty large post to contest a pretty unrelated tangent, and I'd rather we not bring the good old "speed vs entertainment" war into this topic just because someone mentioned star control.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Saxxon. Please explain how your previous post relates to the discussion about this submission?
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
I was referring to the discussion you have quoted, actually. Although loosely. I'll add something constructive when time permits :)
I knew what you were replying to, my point was that it was a pretty large post to contest a pretty unrelated tangent, and I'd rather we not bring the good old "speed vs entertainment" war into this topic just because someone mentioned star control.
My apologies. It's a part of the overall reaction to posted videos that I dislike...
Back to the topic. I watched the first video completely a while ago. Then this one shows up. I'm not a TAS expert by any means, but there are a few things that stood out. Raiscan pretty much covered everything and more :\
Still, sub 2 hours is excellent progress. I'd never originally thought it possible until having seen it in action here. There were some parts that I used fast forward such as some dialog parts - but that's because there's nothing new there.
Also, for the viewer's entertainment and a little blurb to go along with the video, why not put some of the techniques you've used and/or what your main focus was while doing the run? Perhaps some trouble you've run into or a discovery you made while playing.
For example, the many failed superslides that the runner didn't bother to correct. Taking the Odd Mushroom out before reaching the counter. Pulling on a bomb flower in Dodongo's Cavern when there was no reason to do so. What reason is there not to have used re-recording to rectify those mistakes, when the whole point of having tools is to use them to eliminate human error?
So, meh vote.
1. Anything you thought was a failed superslide was an owl skip bomb
2. For some reason the odd mushroom never worked 1st time I always had to pull it out twice while in the shop. I rerecorded so many times and then figured you have to pull it out twice
3. The bomb flower in dodongo's cavern was used for endless sword glitch
Also someone on page one asked why I talked to king zora before bomb hover. I actually talked to Ruto and I used her to activate endless sword glitch to save a bomb.
I never planned on this run getting published I did it really for fun. Then I slightly mentioned it in Mupen section and everyone asked to see it. I told them I was a newbie TASer but they wanted to see it so I submitted it.
I think for not knowing how to use frame advance and for using so many less rerecords than the current published run and for being my first TAS and for just playing the whole thing with a N64 controller on 50% speed (most of the time) it is a decent run.
As I said I know it is not perfect, far from it but I had it and people wanted to see it so I thought I might as well upload it and see what happens.
I appreciate a lot of the criticism from you guys and I will try to become a better TASer so that my runs are more enjoyable.
Also even though it isn't perfect if someone can make an AVI I would really really appreciate it (and other people have been asking for it also) if not I understand. But if you have the time it would be great. Thanks.
No, because there is a place in the rules where it says that a TAS of the game must be entertaining. The OoT run entertained many, while the SC2 one did not.
That's because many people hadn't ever played SC2, so they didn't know the planning behind the movie. If you would ignore the people who shouldn't have voted because they didn't know the game (which I think would be a logical rule to add), there wouldn't have been so many unfavorable votes or comments.
If only people who were familiar with a game were allowed to vote, that would introduce much more bias that without.
Jewel Master is a good example of this. "I've played this a lot before, so I can appreciate how fast it was beaten."... even if the run was boing to everyone else.
TASes are being created for an audience, one largely interested in runs that are interesting to watch. A proper run on Tasvideos should strive to be entertaining and fun to everyone, even a nonplayer.
Do note, howevr, that this is just an opinion, and I'm sure that we all know by now how controversial mine are :>
For example, the many failed superslides that the runner didn't bother to correct. Taking the Odd Mushroom out before reaching the counter. Pulling on a bomb flower in Dodongo's Cavern when there was no reason to do so.
While I'm not sure about the Odd Mushroom, the bomb flower was for the Sword Glitch IIRC, and the "failed" superslides were because the runner apparently didn't realize that superslides also skip owl texts, as they come from the same glitch as the ground jump.
If you're wondering how I know this when I couldn't get it to sync, the run desynced for me on the way to Gerudo Fortress for the second time with Jabo's 1.6.
Anyways, are there any plans to avify this anytime soon?
After reading some of the observations, it looks like everything was done with a purpose. I agree on some of the issues in Jabu's Belly. Either timing can be improved or entertainment should have been added.
If this run does make it, I don't think it should obsolete the previous run because it is less gratifying to see items pop out of thin air than to have them collected.
I have a feeling this may be obsoleted by Guano's new run in a bit, so the result of this submission may not matter in the long run. For this reason I'm gonna have to vote "Meh"
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
zdude255 wrote:
After reading some of the observations, it looks like everything was done with a purpose. I agree on some of the issues in Jabu's Belly. Either timing can be improved or entertainment should have been added.
If this run does make it, I don't think it should obsolete the previous run because it is less gratifying to see items pop out of thin air than to have them collected.
I have a feeling this may be obsoleted by Guano's new run in a bit, so the result of this submission may not matter in the long run. For this reason I'm gonna have to vote "Meh"
No.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
It obsoletes Guano's movie although this movie is heavily not up to par. Also the fact that this run will be beaten eventually makes no difference.
Since the movie does beat Guanos run by almost 40 minutes I'm voting yes regardless.
Be careful, Xkeeper might go around claiming that the S used to stand for Superplay, and that Superplay = Entertainmentrun.
What has that got to do with the situation at hand?
In any case, look at the famtasia moves, often times they are not replaced by their fecu counterparts, even if they were fasterl because they were not played as well as the original. You could draw a comparison with that to this.
tl;dr? => I would vote no. (If I could, and if it would not bork half way through the run..)
