Topic by arkiandruski

Posted: 6/7/2018 1:51 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Awesome, I had already found the place you mentioned in the last post. Didn't find the instant landing trick though, I'm going to go and implement it now. There's one more place I'm looking to clip through, and if flipping animation is what gets you on the other side, it may be possible. That is around 8:25 in the video file. If it's speed specifically that gets you through, though it may be a wash. EDIT: Went back and checked my moviefile. That's around frame 30000. P.S. Does this also mean that my movie is syncing in Bizhawk 2.2.2 for you? EDIT 2: What I meant to say was: When Aero changes direction from left to right for example, he does the same flipping animation. EDIT 3: (sorry) I tested that second place you mentioned. It ended up being slower because you land farther to the right, which means the Aero lands farther to the right on that platform before climbing the mountain.

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Posted: 6/7/2018 10:58 AM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Yeah the movie syncs fine in 2.2.2. I spent a long time yesterday at the spot you're talking about, and was never able to get through there. That makes me start to believe it might actually be horizontal speed that gets you through. Perhaps it could be a combination of both, but it seems like you at least need more horizontal speed than you're able to achieve at that point. I'm still not convinced it's impossible though, you can get very close to doing it I think, or so it seems. I know that you're able to do it if you clear out those enemies, so if there was a faster way of getting around them, you still might be able to save some time, but they were very much in the way. Edit: I know that it's around 40-50 frames faster to take damage on the first section of star platforms in the third fort redstar stage. The only problem is you don't have enough HP to do the second one, so unless there was some extra "A" you could grab that didn't waste more than 40-50 frames, I guess it's pointless. I still wanted to point that out though in case you overlooked it. Here's an example of it: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47640901579624369 Edit2:

arkiandruski wrote:

I tested that second place you mentioned. It ended up being slower because you land farther to the right, which means the Aero lands farther to the right on that platform before climbing the mountain.

Well, I found a method for doing it slightly more efficiently. Try using C (downwards drill). It seems like you're able to save about 10 frames because this kills your horizontal momentum and allows you to immediately jump, in a better position too.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/8/2018 2:42 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Okay, I must be missing something. When I try the downward drill to land on the platform, Aero pops upward and plays the entire animation rather than landing immediately. EDIT: Okay, FINALLY found it. Was annoying as fuck to get the rest of the level to work, but the trick eventually saved 8 frames for the level. As for the third level, I've had no luck clipping through that place I've mentioned. I'm ready to call it a day with that. Also, other health pickups are not looking promising for taking less than a second to grab. The one at the beginning of the level requires going left first to get the height necessary to grab it. The next is behind some annoying enemies and under a ceiling. I'm moving on for now. Luckily, if some good saves are found, the later levels aren't going to be killed if we fix earlier levels.

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Posted: 6/9/2018 5:04 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47689865882092515 Disco Fever Act 1 is pretty much a straight run to the right, which meant it was much more straightforward. Doesn't mean there wasn't room for optimization, though, mostly on the first metronome. This run is 6 frames faster than Exonym's WIP. I wasted way too many rerecords trying to get past that first metronome without using the drill.

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Posted: 6/11/2018 1:17 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47719707691245317 11 frames faster than Exonym's test run.

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Posted: 6/13/2018 5:13 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47767641323495232 Disco Fever Act 3, 13 frames faster. Mostly in these stages, I cleaned up Exonym's WIP, not that didn't try to do things in other ways or use different techniques, just all of them failed or were slower. And since we're done with another zone, here's a video Link to video

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Posted: 6/13/2018 9:15 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Yeah the disco fever levels were pretty boring designs in my opinion. They are mostly just running right or left. I spent a long time looking for ways to cut out time via clipping, but only found the one case with the double drill.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/14/2018 12:14 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Yeah, I tried a few clips as well just to see, mostly concentrating on trying to fall through the floor. The only content on speedrun.com for this game is this guide. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jwAfy0jvd9SI9y7Q1q1Q41i9cnkYrfDR9wTVpMWRYWM/edit It says that you might be able to fall through the floor, but doesn't give a lot of details on how it happens, or what counts as a thin surface. I thought the cymbals may be possible. No luck yet.

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Posted: 6/14/2018 4:11 AM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
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I did a little bit of testing and it seems like a lot of the glitches mentioned there are only possible on the SNES version. I tried forever to get the ladder glitch and stuff to work on the genesis version and nothing.. after 2 seconds I did it in the SNES version. Also got the clipping through the floor trick by standing in spikes, you literally just stand next to a wall. Again though, doesn't work in the genesis version that I can tell.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/14/2018 1:39 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Hum.. well alright then. I'm sure they can be counted as runs of different games, then. Based off the research I've managed to find online, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Genesis version is the definitive version of this game.

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Posted: 6/14/2018 5:59 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

I'm not even really sure any of those glitches would really save time, at least without in depth testing. Another difference I noticed in the SNES version is the camera. When you come flying off the wheels in Bell Castle 2, the camera has a hard time keeping up with Aero. This would make that section cooler by maneuvering without being able to see your character for a bit. People seem to prefer the music on the SNES version more for whatever reason. Personally I think the genesis version music isn't that bad, and I like the final fight vs ektor music on the genesis version over the SNES. That being said I think too much work is put in the genesis version already anyway. Maybe the SNES version could be it's own standalone version like you said, because at first glance it seems way glitchier.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/14/2018 7:55 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

I'm on the complete opposite side of the fence there. I can't stand the SNES music. The person in charge of using that chipset chose all the wrong sounds. While the Genesis soundtrack has style and personality, the SNES one is off-putting at best and grating at worst, and that all comes down to the sounds they decided to use. Listening to them side by side makes me really think that the soundtrack was composed for the Genesis then ported to the SNES.

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Posted: 6/14/2018 10:20 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

I definitely agree, I tend to like the genesis sound style more. I'm just saying that everywhere I go looking at vids of this game, all people ever say is that they prefer the SNES music for some reason. It was exactly the same with the first aero the acrobat game as well. I grew up with a genesis, so maybe I have some kind of bias, but I usually like genesis music more.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/15/2018 12:41 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

After I made script for collisions data, and I became more impressed. Just random pic of Disco level

I'm impressed by you guys. You found zip when script shows like it's impossible:

This moment in last encode is at 7:10 time. :O Script is showing items, spikes, and collisions. Green ground -> you can jump from below. Teal ground -> you can't jump from below. Blue color -> height of "ceil" Updated script still has same URL: https://pastebin.com/mgLLaCnV Normaly ceil check does check against two blocks vertically. So, you have to somehow slip through 16x32 segment. I'm really curious how it looks with collision overlay.

Posted: 6/15/2018 3:11 AM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Well as I was trying to figure out the ladder glitches in the genesis version, I found a time save in Bell Castle Act 3. This occurs at the ladder at frame 08693. I found out you can cancel your ladder slide by pressing up. Since we climbed down quite a ways I figured sliding down a bit and then canceling it would be faster. It ended up being about 20 frames faster. But, of course... The swinging bells later on strike again. This time I had to drill to bypass 3 of them. It still came out like 5 frames ahead at that point though so I kept going. lost another frame saved somewhere, I think one of the upcoming ladders. Overall savings was 4 frames, but I'm confident something better can be done if you wanted to take a quick look. Here's the file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47810233977187429 Edit: Just downloaded your script r57shell. It seems interesting so I'm gonna take a look in a bit. Edit2: Found another improvement, at frame 30367 in my improved file above, press jump. This lands on the very edge of the first star platform which you can then jump off of, and barely make it onto the third one (skipping the second one entirely). You have to drill at the very last second before hitting the spikes (around frame 30466). I don't have enough time to update the entire level, but just wanted to post this improvement before I go to bed. edit3(sorry): at first glance, a frame can be saved by pressing C at frame 30172, to trigger the trampoline rather than pressing D+L+B the frame before that. It should trigger it 1 frame faster.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/15/2018 11:25 AM

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r57shell

Player (97)

Joined: 12/12/2013
Posts: 376
Location: Russia

r57shell wrote:

Normaly ceil check does check against two blocks vertically. So, you have to somehow slip through 16x32 segment.

Hmmm. Looks like it checks again 16x32 only if you have vertical speed UPwards. If you falling down: it depends on block. On those blocks where you slide down on its own -> looks it does nothing. On plain solid blocks -> it push from it, or make you stand on corner <- idk logic atm. Fixed my script, redownload it. This place: https://i.imgur.com/XhszzNz.gifv One additional note: if in cell no "ceill" then it won't look for cell below. This is why this zip works! In theory, you could do same zip without dash if you could cross that corner without that dash. I call it dash by analogy with sonic. BTW: do you use fractional parts of values? For example, max speed is 0x50000, but if ground increase it by 0x900, then you may have 0x50900 which is 5.03515625 pixels per frame :b, and it will gain 1 pixel after every 28.44(4) frames. (approximately each half of second).

Posted: 6/15/2018 3:05 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Found some improvement to fort redstar 2. The sliding can be done better with more drills to increase speed when we lose it at the bottom of the slides. Improved by 14 frames or so, but it desyncs a bit later for some reason. Just showing off the improvement, it can probably be used for the other slide parts too, in fort redstar 1 especially. I didn't try it yet. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47821259961714065

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/15/2018 7:59 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Thanks, man, I really appreciate your help, even if finding new tricks like this means more work for me. I managed to get Bell Castle 3 8 frames faster than my posted WIP. I'm going to sleep now, but when I wake up, I'll double check for sync and tackle that trick from Fort Redstar.

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Posted: 6/15/2018 9:36 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

arkiandruski wrote:

I'll double check for sync and tackle that trick from Fort Redstar.

If I recall, it desyncs somewhere in fort redstar 3 in my improved version, but it was just one less lag frame in the game throwing off the input. So I just deleted a frame and everything resynced again. Just saying, but apparently that can still happen.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/16/2018 6:22 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

I think I've found another improvement to bell castle 3 actually, if you don't mind uploading your 8 frames version I can try to tack this in and see how it works out. Looks to be like 10-11 frames faster, but it's before the last bell cycle again so would have to see how that lines up.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/16/2018 6:32 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Yeah, I was about to upload the next WIP right before you posted. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47846594835437172 Notes: BC3: Slid down the ladder after the one Exonym slides down to reach the slide before the second set of bells faster. Still got caught by three cycles, but by drilling the first one late as possible and the next to early as possible, reached the next ladder much earlier. FR1: used faster slide technique saved a few frames on this level FR2: got better enemy behavior later, which led to a sizable saving in this level. FR3: small changes in the early level put me in a different point on the snowball cycle after I take damage on the spikes. got better enemy behavior later, which led to a sizable saving in this level. DI1: Wasn't able to find any good clips, sadly. Taking damage on the machine allows me to get four hits on the first cycle by using invulnerability to hit the guy while inside him. That cuts one cycle out of the fight. Found jumping and decelerating in air was faster than skidding for landing on the teleporter.

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Posted: 6/16/2018 7:36 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Okay, seems like it doesn't matter since you pass by the first bell at the first frame possible already. I'll just state the improvement then. It comes at frame 8547, I drilled up and left instead of down and left. This gives you more speed before you run off the last platform, and that's enough speed to beat the bat to the ladder (you dont need to jump to distract him now). I had around 13 frames saved by the time I reached the bells but would have to slow down to pass the first one anyway. I'll drop the file here anyway just for future reference.. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47847693865166046 Edit Sorry to point it out but it seems like you missed a couple of things I mentioned in the earlier post. Probably because I keep editing them every few seconds, lol.

Exonym wrote:

Edit2: Found another improvement, at frame 30367 in my improved file above, press jump. This lands on the very edge of the first star platform which you can then jump off of, and barely make it onto the third one (skipping the second one entirely). You have to drill at the very last second before hitting the spikes (around frame 30466). I don't have enough time to update the entire level, but just wanted to post this improvement before I go to bed.

Obviously the frame count isn't the same now with the improvements in place. The frame to jump seems to be 30343 now. I have to point it out because this was a rather large improvement actually, 20 frames or so. Hmm... the snowball cycle is terrible now... might not actually be a time save overall. Nevermind I've found a new path that involves hitting an enemy and then jumping through the floor.

Exonym wrote:

edit3(sorry): at first glance, a frame can be saved by pressing C at frame 30172, to trigger the trampoline rather than pressing D+L+B the frame before that. It should trigger it 1 frame faster.

I didn't fully test this one out to see if it was actually faster in the long run. Frame is now 30148. Well, I think I'm gonna just implement this and try not to screw up anything, during the middle of this I found a new path and I'm currently like 30 frames ahead or so. I'll update sometime later on tonight probably, try to see if I can sync everything back up.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/16/2018 9:32 PM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
Posts: 345

Okay, I did this faster than even I expected to. Total savings was 38 frames, and the rest of the run synced up flawlessly, so here it is: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47849456818214720 Also, that speedrun.com guide mentioned that these Dr dis minibosses die in 1 hit from flame aero. This is something that needs to be tested probably, if the powerup even carries over to the boss screen.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/17/2018 12:53 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (277)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Okay, yeah, that fire powerup thing should be tried. I know there's a powerup in each level. I might even be able to reach them going backward from developer intended route.

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Posted: 6/17/2018 1:11 AM

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Exonym

Editor, Experienced player (883)

Joined: 7/20/2011
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Okay I've found some weird behavior on the fort redstar boss, in his second phase. If you take damage immediately after falling, for some reason he spawns early, but is invisible. When you hit him here, his sprite comes into view for his hurt animation, and then it disappears, and he rejumps again abit later. I'm thinking, if aero didn't bounce to the right and directly over the water for some reason after hitting the boss... that we could somehow get him stuck in infinitely spawning at the start and never go into his phase where he knocks stuff down from the ceiling. That's the hope anyway. Edit: Wasn't able to get him stuck in a loop like I wanted, but still was able to save 62 frames by taking advantage of these early hits. This is probably a very sloppy version of it, I didn't take much time going over it, but still shows off the trick. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47853754489222934

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.