Yeah, I see your points, Slayer.
My movies aren't pure combo videos, so they can't be as good in that category as the ones shown on SRK etc. And as Maj already said, you will always be limited in combo possibilities when playing against a CPU.
Thats why I started a SSF2 Tournament Mode movie once, in which I picked the 8 most interesting fighters (IMO), and manipulated luck so that they were placed in a good order. I didn't chose any CPU fighters, so that you could control all fights in the tournament by yourself through a 2-player mode. That way you not only can execute all possible combos, but also get different fighters in each round to make a more varied movie.
SSF2 - Tournament Mode (4 rounds done)
As you see, I cancelled it after 4 rounds because it was very time consuming to optimize all fights in a 2-player mode. But in this 4 fights I already executed alot of new and really cool combos which were up to 13 hits. I think this is exactly something for a combo expert, so if you are interested, feel free to continue this movie and finish a couple more fights, so that we might have a complete tournament movie done someday (it's been more than 2 years since I stopped on it).
Maj wrote:
That's why i think it might be best to do a T.Hawk speedrun.
Well, I don't think I could make a interesting T.Hawk movie, because this is one of the few fighters I suck most with. :-P
However I planned to do a Guile run in the past. Seeing your crazy combo vid makes me think it might indeed be worth a try with him. So far I didn't fully decide which character to pick for the new movie yet, but I will think about it.
Maj wrote:
I guess you could also go with the characters who do the most damage. Who would that be? I'm guessing probably DeeJay (cuz of the Machine Gun Punch) and Fei Long (cuz of the Rekka Kens).
I already did a Feilong movie. It actually was my very first TAS ever, so don't expect too much of it. I only used savestates to make it (as I wasn't aware of the frame advance function at all in that time ;-) ), and even though the movie sucks because of it, it still shows one of the hardest (in damage dealing) combos possible with Feilong.
SSF2 - Super Battle Mode with Feilong
And since we are on the subject, I also did a New record in the Time Challenge Mode (already with much use of Frame Advance). It's only one fight, and I think this is the fastest knockout time possible to get with any fighter. If you think it can be improved, feel free to suggest your tech, or just make a faster movie as proof yourself. :-)
SSF2 - Time Challenge Mode - Fastest knockout: 5.902 sec!
Hm, i guess i was wrong about Fei Long. His Rekka Ken combos get way too repetitive and he doesn't have nearly as much variety as he does in ST. The cool thing about ST Fei Long is that he's a completely offensive character and he's one of the fastest super meter builders in the game. But i guess a lot of that doesn't carry over into SSF2.
Anyway i tried doing a Time Challenge with DeeJay but it didn't quite work out.
SNES SSF2 Time Challenge - Dee Jay sample 1
- j.HK, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch (Dhalsim dizzy), crossup j.HK, s.HK xx HP Machine Gun Punch
You can definitely do two Machine Gun Punch combos in under 5 seconds, but they didn't do enough damage. Maybe with a little luck manipulation, the damage can be boosted to fill the gap.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
Wow, this is a very fast tech. I tried to manipulate it's damage as well, but didn't manage to come closer than what you did in the vid. I fear it's impossible to get enough damage for a knockout with this combo, which is a pity seeing how much faster it could be. :-(
Hm, actually i was able to get all the way up to about one pixel short of full damage. All i changed was the wait time between s.HK and U+HP in the second part.
SNES SSF2 Time Challenge - Dee Jay sample 2
- j.HK, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch (Dhalsim dizzy), crossup j.HK, s.HK xx HP Machine Gun Punch
Also, changing the wait time between s.MP and U+HP can result in much higher damage for the first combo, but strangely enough i wasn't able to get as much total damage combined with the second combo. I think there are some tricky damage reduction issues that come into play when the opponent's lifebar is close to drained. So in some cases, doing a lot of damage early on makes it more difficult to do damage later in the combo. It might be possible to maximize everything to achieve 100% damage, but the luck manipulation could take forever and unfortunately i don't have that kind of time.
However, i was able to kill Dhalsim in about 5.3 seconds by doing j.HK, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch (Dhalsim dizzy), crossup j.HK, c.MP, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch. It looked kinda sloppy though, cuz the c.MP doesn't combo from the j.HK at that height. If you spend some time on it, i'm sure you can find a better alternative and make it look nicer. Maybe you could even use j.MK instead, which would give you much more flexible crossup timing.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
Yeah, I knew that the damage power can vary slightly when you delay the hits. Thats what I actually tried to do in my attempt, only I did it on the first combo. And it turns out you were right about the fact that the more damage you deal to the opponent at first half, the less it will get on the last. Your 2nd attempt was sooo close though, that I indeed think it might just be enough when optimizing the hit timing to the max. I might take a closer look on that someday, and if I manage a knockout, I will definitely post it here.
Maj wrote:
However, i was able to kill Dhalsim in about 5.3 seconds by doing j.HK, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch (Dhalsim dizzy), crossup j.HK, c.MP, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch.
Pwned.
It's pretty clear now that Dee Jay is the fastest knockouter. Congrats on a new record. :-)
I might try some other combo variations with him when I get the time, to see if there is something faster than that.
Cool, i'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
One thing i forgot to mention about Ken: You can cancel his far s.HK during the early animation. It's possible to do c.MP, s.HK xx HP fireball as a 3-hit combo against Zangief in the corner. Ryu can combo it midscreen and against a wider selection of opponents because his fireball comes out faster.
If you ever want to do another speedrun, i think it might be easiest to plan it by first writing up a list of ideal combos and the opponents required to perform them. That way you can save the easy ones for characters who make poor combo dummies, like Dee Jay and Vega.
Anyway i've been wanting to post more combo videos in this thread but it's been slow since Evolution. Everyone worked hard to finish their videos by Evo, so now that it's over there's nothing in development. I guess i could go back and post some of the classic tool-assisted combo videos from the past.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
This is either new or i've missed it repeatedly every time i've checked this guy's website:
T-7's movie preview page
It's got a lot of youtube links to crazy preview trailers for combo video DVDs that he sells. The KoFXI stuff is really crazy. I mean it's gotten to the point where there are always like 3-5 characters on the screen, random glitchy offscreen supers all over the place. Wacky, to say the least.
Here's a link to his main page but it's pretty much just Japanese text. All of his stuff is tool-assisted for sure, using programmable controllers.
http://sonichurricane.com
Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
So what games are you guys into? If someone picks a game, i can list off a few of the best combo videos made for it. Almost every game has milestones, where some dude made a revolutionary video that changed the way people thought of the game's limitations.
Guess i'll just start somewhere random. Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is pretty popular these days. Two video makers come to mind, whom everyone respects.
Tosaka (homepage)
Saita v1.2 Multi-Character Combo Video | Remy Combo Videokysg (homepage)
Vol. 1 - Q and Twelve | Vol. 2 - Chun Li | Vol. 3 - Alex | Vol. 4 - Ken | Vol. 5 - Akuma | Vol. 6 - Elena | Vol. 7 - Ryu | Vol. 8 - Sean | Vol. 9 - Necro
Every single one of these videos is groundbreaking. They have an unbelievably deep knowledge of the game and enough videomaking talent to keep the combos from ever getting repetitive. That sort of thing takes a lot of planning because you have to map out exactly which concepts you're going to use in each combo and which ones you're going to save for later.
All of these vids were made using programmable controllers. The brand/model name are actually listed in kysg's videos.
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Maj wrote:
So what games are you guys into? If someone picks a game, i can list off a few of the best combo videos made for it.
hey. Maj... do you have videos of Breakers or Breakers Revenge?
Also, XMVSF and MSHVSF have pretty cool combos.
SSF2 is a just too simple and limited... gets boring so fast...
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
MvC, MvC2, SF3, Any MK game, SNKvC (any)....pretty much any of the later Capcom vs. games and later SNK games. Oh yeah and Killer Instinct! edit: forgot to mention all the Soul Calibur games
Since it's come out, I've never enjoyed a fighter as much as Darkstalkers. I'm currently beating the crap out of MvC2 (the PS2 version, ha), and I do also enjoy Tekken Tag Tournament.
hey. Maj... do you have videos of Breakers or Breakers Revenge?
To be honest i know nothing about the Breakers series, but i do remember a video released a long time ago that was supposed to be pretty good. I don't know if they used any tools, but since it's emulated they probably at least started their combo attempts from a save state which saves a little bit of time compared to resetting, reselecting characters, rebuilding meter, and repositioning them.
Breaker's Revenge vol.1 - Slow Burn by Baratoz and Comedisdegno of Arcade-ExtremeBreaker's Revenge vol.2 - Ignition by Comedisdegno and Baratoz
The second one contains way more elaborate setups and shows off more obscure situations. The first one is more of a basic video, because even though some of the combos are difficult, they don't require any special setups. Other than these two, i don't remember seeing any other full-length Breakers videos. There are a bunch of single-combo clips on youtube plus a few random SNK multi-game videos have featured Breakers combos, but nothing major comes to mind at the moment.
Also, XMVSF and MSHVSF have pretty cool combos.
This is opening a big can of worms. I'm gonna have to come back to this request when i have a lot more time to sort through what's out there. Sorry to make you wait.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
MvC, MvC2, SF3, Any MK game, SNKvC (any)....pretty much any of the later Capcom vs. games and later SNK games. Oh yeah and Killer Instinct!
I'm gonna skip the Marvel series for now cuz there's simply too much to cover. Actually, i'm just gonna pick one game for today and come back to the rest later.
For SF3: New Generation, there really wasn't much at the time because the game was released before capture cards became affordable. Also i don't think there was a console release until after interested in the game died down and CPS3 arcade boards were crazy expensive. There are a couple of videos where it shows up briefly.
3s Video #4 by SlimX
Most of the video is SF3: Third Strike but it switches to NG right at 1:43 then switches back 2:16. He highlights a few combos that obviously don't work in 3S, just to add a little variety i guess. This video isn't tool-assisted.
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SF3 NG/2I Combo/Glitch Exhibition vol.1 by AkabloSF3 NG/2I Combo/Glitch Exhibition vol.2 by Akablo
SF3 NG/2I Combo/Glitch Exhibition vol.3 by Akablo
These three videos show a mix of combos and oddities from both NG and SF3: 2nd Impact. The easiest way to tell the games apart is to look at the top left and top right corners. If there's a roman numeral up there, then it's NG. If the roman numeral is at the bottom of screen by the super meters, then it's 2I. Not sure if these videos are tool-assisted, but they probably are.
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SF3 NG/2I Combo VHS by Skill Smith
Saved the best for last. Skill Smith is a legendary Japanese combo video group that started up around SFA2 era where TZW left off (with SFA1). They're famous for their 2I combo videos because nobody has topped them in all this time. They show a wide variety of very stylish and technically advanced combos for each and every character. I'm fairly certain that this video is tool-assisted, using programmable controllers or rapid-fire or something. You're not going to find any NG combo videos better than this, but maybe more will be made since CPS3 recently got emulated.
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Unfotunately, Breakers is totally underknown... how sad... The game is just as good as Street Fighter Zero, if not better. There's no "zero counter", but super moves can be used as "combo breakers".
I've watched those two movies on youtube before.
They're really great., especially part 2 (I'm talking about Dao-Long's)
Ninja Master's is another promising game.
Neo-Geo is really the king of fighting games...
EDIT: HEY! I didn't forget that top-secret re-recording arcade emulator you mentioned before...
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Since it's come out, I've never enjoyed a fighter as much as Darkstalkers. I'm currently beating the crap out of MvC2 (the PS2 version, ha), and I do also enjoy Tekken Tag Tournament.
Darkstalkers is huge in Japan so they've made some crazy good combo videos for it over the years. Actually, that series was released around the same time as the SF3 series and SFA2, so the first groundbreaking videos for it were made by Skill Smith.
Vampire Savior (Saturn) Combo VHS Part 1 by Skill Smith
Vampire Savior (Saturn) Combo VHS Part 2 by Skill Smith
Vampire Savior (Saturn) Combo VHS Part 3 by Skill Smith
Vampire Savior (Saturn) Combo VHS Part 4 by Skill Smith
Not sure if/how they used tool-assistance but they probably had programmable pads back then.
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Vampire Savior Combo Movie by TKO and Ayanamililith
All sorts of crazy combos in this one. Definitely using programmable pads. There was another Vampire video edited by Ayanamililith but i can't find it on u2b.
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Vampire Savior Combovideo by MVS Club
Yet another good Darkstalkers video without a title. The words "The Fete of Evil Never Ends" flash during the intro, but that probably wasn't intended to be the name of the video. Anyway it covers the entire cast and includes a bunch of random glitches at the end.
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I don't know much about Tekken Tag but there was one video made with the PS2 version that stands out.
Fragment of Memories by kysg
The trailer was released a while before the actual video, but i guess someone glued them together to post them on u2b. It's crazy that he managed to combo into Jack's incredibly slow super.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
Hey Maj, I really enjoyed a lot of those videos. Your Guile video was great, a lot of crazy stuff there. The timing for those multi sonic boom combos must have been incredibly tight.
I also must mention that I really love the shoegazer music you picked. I'm a music nerd, and most combo videos choose songs that have me reaching for the power button on my speakers. The intro hip-hop track wasn't my favourite, but the rest were fantastic.
You've inspired me to try a combo video for a little-known game called Asura Blade (eventually - I've got one or two Genesis games I want to have a go at first). Do you know this game, or of any videos for it? I could only find one or two videos on the net, and they don't really abuse the combo engine much. It's a very broken game when you get right into it...
Pirate Sephiroth: Awesome, another Neo-Geo fan. I actually prefer Breaker's Revenge to SF0, I don't think it's a "better" game but I find it quite fun. I'm also better playing with a 4-button setup ;) Have you watched any videos from the KOF98 Japan vs. China tournament? I highly recommend them if you haven't.
Unfotunately, Breakers is totally underknown... how sad... The game is just as good as Street Fighter Zero, if not better. There's no "zero counter", but super moves can be used as "combo breakers".
Hm, that's an odd comparison. Street Fighter Zero isn't really considered a good game by anyone. It was a huge disappointment when it was released. SFA2 and SFA3 are good though.
Breaker's Revenge Combo Clips by DarkOne of KoFUnion
I happened to find this while searching for something completely unrelated. Dunno how good it is but everything KoFUnion produces is usually top notch.
EDIT: HEY! I didn't forget that top-secret re-recording arcade emulator you mentioned before...
That guy has been mia for a long time. He was supposed to be moving to the other side of the country and starting a new job or something. As soon as his project is completed i'll let you guys know. Sorry dude, it's out of my hands. I can't wait for it to be done either.
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Maj wrote:
Hm, that's an odd comparison. Street Fighter Zero isn't really considered a good game by anyone. It was a huge disappointment when it was released. SFA2 and SFA3 are good though.
Actually, I as talking about the Zero Series... the first game sucks, I know...
Nice short video.
By the way... what games does that new emulator support? Neo Geo? CPS?
plusminus wrote:
Have you watched any videos from the KOF98 Japan vs. China tournament? I highly recommend them if you haven't.
I hate KOF98... it's so boring just lke 2k2... and these are the most popular games of the series...
I like 2k3 a bit better. It has only a single round and you can switch characters...that adds some adrenaline. Plus, there's Duolon!
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
I hate KOF98... it's so boring just lke 2k2... and these are the most popular games of the series...
Huh, interesting, not something you hear from a whole lot of Neo-Geo fans. Do you like any of the earlier KOF games? I agree that the formula is a bit dated and that 2k2 is kind of boring for reusing it.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
KOF has all those famous characters and stuff but gets old fast.
99% of the combos are Strong Attack -> some direction+Weak Attack -> Super Move
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Hey Maj, I really enjoyed a lot of those videos. Your Guile video was great, a lot of crazy stuff there. The timing for those multi sonic boom combos must have been incredibly tight.
Thank you sir. I'm glad you liked it. A lot of that stuff is taking the timing to the limit, which is kind of cool to watch, but not that creatively impressive. Some of that stuff is actually finding ways to circumvent the limits, which takes more cleverness. Unfortunately most people don't understand how charging works, so they can't tell the difference. I keep meaning to write a couple of articles explaining that stuff, but i get caught up in other stuff. Whenever i get around to it, i'll post a link here.
I also must mention that I really love the shoegazer music you picked. I'm a music nerd, and most combo videos choose songs that have me reaching for the power button on my speakers. The intro hip-hop track wasn't my favourite, but the rest were fantastic.
Thought i'd take a chance and see what happened. It's very difficult finding music that fits in fighting game videos. I'm happy with the way it turned out, but i'll probably go back to using upbeat rock music for future videos.
You've inspired me to try a combo video for a little-known game called Asura Blade (eventually - I've got one or two Genesis games I want to have a go at first). Do you know this game, or of any videos for it?
Sorry, i haven't heard of that game at all. This and this were the only things i could find.
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Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
A lot of that stuff is taking the timing to the limit, which is kind of cool to watch, but not that creatively impressive. Some of that stuff is actually finding ways to circumvent the limits, which takes more cleverness. Unfortunately most people don't understand how charging works, so they can't tell the difference. I keep meaning to write a couple of articles explaining that stuff, but i get caught up in other stuff. Whenever i get around to it, i'll post a link here.
I would like to see such an article if you ever do get to it. Some of the stuff in that video seems like it's obvious that you're using some tricks to bypass the intended limits, but as I'm no SF expert it's sometimes hard for me to tell when it's only (hah!) a matter of frame perfection.
It's very difficult finding music that fits in fighting game videos. I'm happy with the way it turned out, but i'll probably go back to using upbeat rock music for future videos.
Fair enough. Songs with angry guys singing about love always seem to be a winner, although I've never quite figured out why. ;)
Sorry, i haven't heard of that game at all. This and this were the only things i could find.
Thanks, the first video I've seen, the second one was nice if a bit short. It's not a well-known game, and actually it's pretty broken when you get right into it so it doesn't surprise me it never caught on. Still loads of fun though, and would make for some good vids. I doubt I could make something of the same calibre as the videos you've posted for the more popular games, but I think I could still get something worth watching.
I doubt I could make something of the same calibre as the videos you've posted for the more popular games ...
That isn't something you should be concerned about. Finding combo engine limits is a gradual process, and finding ways around them is even more incremental. If there exist only two or three combo videos for a particular game, nobody should have to worry about making a 10th generation video for it.
All you have to do is take what's out there and reach one step further. Then someone else will pick up where you left off and take another step. Or enough time will pass that you'll get interested in revisiting the game and taking that step.
Either way, as long as you're able to bring something innovative to the table, you don't need to worry about anyone else's expectations. Good luck with your video. If you run into any problems, don't hesitate to ask about them here.
http://sonichurricane.com
Tuesday = new technical/combo video/article | Thursday = new screenshot | Saturday = new strategy article
Alright, first question: more hits or more damage?
Asura Blade is one of those games with really really bad damage reduction in combos, to the point where a medium hit comboed into a strong hit often does less damage than the strong hit on it's own. There's a number of combos where I can sneak in an extra hit or two in the middle, and while it looks more impressive that way, it actually ends up doing less damage.
Showing both versions doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I don't want to have too much redundancy. I'm thinking I'll go with the more hits, except in special cases such as 100% damage combos where the reduced damage prevents the whole 100%.
