Gau could make a nice addition to the group but his randomness could also bring the anhilation of the group.
It can't be that hard to manipulate him, can it? He's got a 50% shot of using Catscratch. Those are pretty good odds to start with before we bring in luck manipulation.
With Gogo, you can use Joker Doom in the final battle. You need to have Gogo in the air with Jump or Palidor, use Setzer's 7-7-Bar to kill your party, land, and use Mimic until Kefka is dead. Only problem is surviving, but Gogo can easily get 106% mblock without sketch glitch (Magus Rod from Dirt Dragon or betting Heal Rod, Force Shield from Kefka's Tower, Tao Robe from maranda in WoR and Bard's Hat from one of the 1000 shop that sells it). The problems are Quake (float anyone?), 10-hits (Mblock should help), Flare Star (hope it is not used), Merton (the same), random psychical attacks (Mblock) and Calmness (Mblock).
The strategy takes 10 turns to use because mimic "misses" at
-1st mimic, against 1st tier
-4th mimic, against 2nd tier
-6th mimic, against 3rd tier
-8th mimic, against Kefka
Getting Gogo and his equips takes some time, but you save some time by
-Not getting Gau
-Not using the sketch glitch
-Not teaching Vanish to Mog (Gogo can also use slots)
-Possibly against some bosses
-Maybe some other things
Well... Ain't one of the other factors that Mog can rush through the entire last place more or less, since he has the mogle belt? I'm not sure about this since I've never before made a low level run.
Another thing. IF Mog has the mogle belt. How does it affect other parties luck manipulation when it comes to avoiding battles?
Could one for example walk around with a party not including Mog. Then switch to Mog's team and take a step to sort of change the values for the first team?
Gau with Merit Award + Illumina + Stray Cat could be very powerful, if unpredictible. (Is Merti Award+ Gengi Glove + Illumina + Illumina possible ?)
Someone (Setzer or Gau) should have the Fixed Dice. I know you'll have the Illuminas already from the Sketch glitch, but the Fixed Dice are right on the way in Kefka's Tower. Plus, at the low levels you'll be at, I'm fairly certain the Illumina can't hit 9,999 damage. The Fixed Dice *can*, though a fair amount of luck manipulation might be needed. (Rolling 6-6-6, any character will do 9,999 damage at as low as 4th level!)
With Gogo, you can use Joker Doom in the final battle. You need to have Gogo in the air with Jump or Palidor, use Setzer's 7-7-Bar to kill your party, land, and use Mimic until Kefka is dead.
...seriously? I thought Kefka and the three tiers were programmed so Joker Doom could not work. You've tested this?
Ego Buff wrote:
(Magus Rod from Dirt Dragon or betting Heal Rod, Force Shield from Kefka's Tower, Tao Robe from maranda in WoR and Bard's Hat from one of the 1000 shop that sells it).
Dirt Dragon would take too much time. I think the Colosseum would too, but there's probably stuff to be considered there.
Corundrum wrote:
Plus, at the low levels you'll be at, I'm fairly certain the Illumina can't hit 9,999 damage.
Regular hits won't. Catscratch just might. But we'd need to get a Merit Award, and that doesn't appear to be obtainable via the sketch glitch, according to MasterZED's FAQ. It seems to be Colosseum only, and would take at least two battles (Imp Halberd or Titanium -> Cat Hood -> Merit Award). Probably isn't worth it.
I have a somewhat far out question. Is Mog worth getting, period? The only benefit is the Moogle Charm, which stops enemy encounters. That's only used for one third of the final dungeon. That's not that many battles to run from, and the time it takes to get Mog might cancel out that gain.
Also, you can get the Charm Bangle by talking to every soldier before the banquet in Vector and answering Gestahl's questions perfectly. This relic cuts the amount of random encounters roughly in half, is equippable by everyone, and is gotten about halfway through the run. Best of all, you lose no time by getting it. This seems more useful to me than Mog and the Moogle Charm.
Also, you can get the Charm Bangle by talking to every soldier before the banquet in Vector and answering Gestahl's questions perfectly. This relic cuts the amount of random encounters roughly in half, is equippable by everyone, and is gotten about halfway through the run. Best of all, you lose no time by getting it.
but don't you? in order to get enough points for the bangle, you have to take a break during the banquet and trounce Gestahl's bodyguards.
Also, you can get the Charm Bangle by talking to every soldier before the banquet in Vector and answering Gestahl's questions perfectly. This relic cuts the amount of random encounters roughly in half, is equippable by everyone, and is gotten about halfway through the run. Best of all, you lose no time by getting it.
but don't you? in order to get enough points for the bangle, you have to take a break during the banquet and trounce Gestahl's bodyguards.
Ack, forgot about that. I still think it's faster in the long run, as it's an easy battle.
It's nice to have discussions about FF3 again. Here's is what I think about the points suggested :
- I don't understand your final strategy for Gogo. What happens when he Mimic ? Does he mimic Joker Doom or fight ? If he's mimicing fight, that will be very long.
- I totaly forgot about Gogo. Indeed, he can be used as a second Joker Doom. However, we only need one in the final dungeon. I don't see how a second one will speed up the dungeon. He could aslo a second catscratcher.
- I'm not sure skipping Mog is faster. Don't forget that he'll be 5 levels higher than everyone. And if you don't get him, you'll need to have two character alone as the final party. This mean you won't be able to Vanish/Doom in the first turn of un-runable fights.
-I forgot about fixed dice. Some test would need to be done to see how controllable they are.
-I suggest to get charm bangle not only to get less battles but to controls random battles too by equiping/unequiping charm bangle.
It's nice to have discussions about FF3 again. Here's is what I think about the points suggested :
- I don't understand your final strategy for Gogo. What happens when he Mimic ? Does he mimic Joker Doom or fight ? If he's mimicing fight, that will be very long.
There is techinal explanation in Master ZED's Bug FAQ. I won't bother explaining it here - just search for joker doom. I've tested it and it works. About Magus Rod - if you can sacrifice 20 Mblock, you can just use the Heal Rod.
You definitely want Mog if you want Gogo, the dungeon is evil. I am pretty sure the moogle charm can't be used to skip other parties' encounters.
There is techinal explanation in Master ZED's Bug FAQ. I won't bother explaining it here - just search for joker doom. I've tested it and it works. About Magus Rod - if you can sacrifice 20 Mblock, you can just use the Heal Rod.
Huh. That's interesting. I still question how fast it is, as it requires going through Zone Eater and getting Gogo, and returning to the Solitary Island to pick up Palidor (will we have any spare Magicite in the inventory? Maybe we could call him up that way.)
If we went with this, then Mog becomes more useful, as this is a second dungeon where the Moogle Charm would come in handy. In this scenario, he'd probably be worth it.
Jyzero wrote:
It's nice to have discussions about FF3 again. Here's is what I think about the points suggested :
- I'm not sure skipping Mog is faster. Don't forget that he'll be 5 levels higher than everyone. And if you don't get him, you'll need to have two character alone as the final party. This mean you won't be able to Vanish/Doom in the first turn of un-runable fights.
Two? Celes, Edgar, and Setzer are all required pickups. Even without Gau or Gogo, that's three, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
Mog's extra five levels are nice, but I wouldn't think they make a huge difference. If he's attacking physically, his poor Vigor and inability to use Illumina easily cancels out the extra damage he does from being higher-level.
Magically he fares better. If you could keep him in near fatal status, he has the strongest desperation move in the game in Moogle Rush. That uses Magic to determine damage. It also ignores defense, so it would probably be the strongest move available to him. I know it takes a few seconds before becoming available to use, but we're mainly talking about the tiers and Kefka, which is by far going to be the longest battle in the game (unless we go with Joker Doom.)
I'm still not convinced he's worth it. I think Gau offers better returns for less time put in.
So, I was poking around GameFAQS today, and I found this link on the FF6 boards.
http://www.mnrogar.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=325
While most of these aren't going to be to useful to a TAS, some of them would. In particular, I point you to number 11. It should allow you to skip all of South Figaro in Locke's scenario! I'm going to try playing with this and swee how well it works.
I just tested bug #11, and it works perfectly! Locke can get out of South Figaro by himself in under 15 seconds. You then have to solo the cave with him, but you'd be running from most of the fights anyway. The only problem is if you get pincered. Tunnel Armor would be a problem, but there's a Thunder Rod in the cave that can kill him in one hit. In total, Locke's scenario can be completed in under three minutes.
I'll keep playing with this bug later. I'm not sure how skipping Celes will hurt the game, besides having a Moogle replace her in the cutscenes.
Here are the potential problems with skipping Celes :
-You miss an Earring. This will lower Sabin Aura Bolt damage and damage with rods.
-You miss about 2000GP (You will need enough sometime to buy Echo Screens and smoke bombs)
-The character replacing Celes is very weak, you cannot change his equipment and he can't learn magic
-Kuppa will be is a forced member for a good part of WoB and almost all WoR (since we wont get alot of party members)
With the previous sketch glitch strategy this would have been a big no. But with the new Gogo strategy, I think it's possible. The most troublesome battle would be Tentacles in the Figaro Castle.
There's aslo another possibility :
Use bug #11 to go straight the the rich man house and do the Celes introduction where you name her. This way Kuppan will change to Celes. Go back and exit town. Tunnel armor can be soloed with Thunder Rod and luck abuse.
Can someone try this ?
Here are the potential problems with skipping Celes :
-You miss an Earring. This will lower Sabin Aura Bolt damage and damage with rods.
-You miss about 2000GP (You will need enough sometime to buy Echo Screens and smoke bombs)
-The character replacing Celes is very weak, you cannot change his equipment and he can't learn magic
-Kuppa will be is a forced member for a good part of WoB and almost all WoR (since we wont get alot of party members)
At least in Locke's scenario, Kupan is not in the battle party. I think he's only used for cutscenes. I haven't advanced to the Narshe battle yet, so we'll see.
EDIT: Never mind. I hadn't read all of the responses to the glitch list before posting. Kutan is indeed in your party through game end.
Money should not be a huge problem. The only things that need to be bought are Echo Screens and Smoke Bombs.If we don't make enough money off forced battles, we can always have Locke steal some rare equipment. He's a mandatory character anyway for large portions of the WoB.
The Earring is a loss, but not a huge one. The only place it would really hurt would be the Magitek Factory, and if absolutely necessary, we can buy one by then.
Jyzero wrote:
With the previous sketch glitch strategy this would have been a big no. But with the new Gogo strategy, I think it's possible. The most troublesome battle would be Tentacles in the Figaro Castle.
This is assuming Celes is not forcibly added to the party either post-Opera House, as the finder of the glitch speculated, or post-WoB. I admit it may be difficult if that doesn't happen.
EDIT: And it doesn't.
Jyzero wrote:
There's aslo another possibility :
Use bug #11 to go straight the the rich man house and do the Celes introduction where you name her. This way Kuppan will change to Celes. Go back and exit town. Tunnel armor can be soloed with Thunder Rod and luck abuse.
Can someone try this ?
Give me some time. I'll try it out. Hopefully, I'll have results by tomorrow.
A speedrun is to finish a game as fast as possible, and trying to get Celes would just add a few minutes to the run.
But then again, Kuppan might slow down battles since he cannot equip weapons/armor and learn magic. Also, I believe you lose the Runic ability, which has saved my life many times whenever I play the game. It's a two-sided coin.
Personally, it would be rather interesting to see Kuppan be put in SOME use. You could always have him be the dummy - have all the enemies with unavoidable attacks and inflict status alignments on Kuppan, and have him be the victim of Doom spells, and so on. That way the rest of your party can focus on pounding the enemies. Or you could have him be the "item carrier" - he uses items whenever a need arises (such as the Echo Screen+Joker Doom combo) or just have him defend.
Just some ideas.
I think that in the long run Kuppan would waste more time than it takes to get Celes. It's an interesting glitch, but it might not be useful for the TAS.
Of course, if someone wanted to make a pure glitch run for show, then it could be done. A run like that may not be published, but it'd be fun to watch.
All right, I've done some testing, and offer up these results:
Triggering Celes' cutscene before using the slip-through glitch is...not really significantly faster than the normal route, to be honest. None of the other soldiers that block paths are in motion, so you have to play through S. Figaro as normal until then. (You can use glitch 10 from the list to skip the fight with the Officer, but you can use that in a normal route too.) After triggering Celes' naming screen, you then would leave the house WITHOUT her, and slipthrough the guard to get out. You can not take her with you, because the game will not allow Locke and Celes to exit through the house. You still have to solo the cave with Locke. Celes appears as normal during the Narshe battle.
In conclusion, the only advantage this route has over the normal one is fewer random battles, as we don't have to go through the basement. Not a large increase of time, and we still lose the equipment from the basement. I don't think this one is worth it.
Going back to the Kupan route, I still think this is the best choice. Yes, his stats are horrid. Yes he has little to no equipment. Yes, he doesn't have Runic. All of these are important.
In a normal game. In a speedrun, particuarly a TAS, that's not the case.
Let's look at the battles where Celes/Kupan is a required character. How many of these are we going to be fighting in a normal manner?
-Tunnel Armor (Kupan won't be there, and Locke can one-hit KO him with the Thunder Rod anyway. That's probably the best bet even if Celes is there.)
-Number 024 (You'll have three other characters with you. He can be taken down fairly quickly with a well-equipped Gau and Sabin. Celes would not be a huge help anyway.)
-Nerapa (Always a joke.)
-Tentacles (The one hard battle, as only Edgar will be with you. Are they vulnerable to Petrify? If so, you can one-hit KO them with Shoat.)
These are the only required ones. For everything else, Celes is optional. I think in the end, taking Kupan will lose you more time on the map than in battle. (He can't be equipped with Sprint Shoes, which means walking through the WoR until acquiring Edgar.) And I still think he's faster in the long run. I'll keep play-testing.
I would guess that it saves considerably more time in the long run to skip Celes, as well. And I hope it is faster or at least as fast, because it would be cool to see this used in a run of this game.
I'm not sure why the current plan is to not do the sketch glitch, though (it seems like it would help a lot even with also using Gogo, but I must be wrong about that).
Another thing to try:
-Enter the South Figaro dungeon by the exit to take the Earring.
Hmm, I thought this is what you meant to begin with. I didn't really test if it's faster, but I think it is and it's definitely possible. If it is faster, then after that, you can do whichever ending is faster, of course (either escape with Celes the normal way or continue moving in reverse and perform the bug again).
And the moogle's name is Kutan. That's right, not Kupan or Kuppan, but Kutan. I don't know whether using him is quicker (I think it probably isn't), but at least get his name right :P.
-Tentacles (The one hard battle, as only Edgar will be with you. Are they vulnerable to Petrify? If so, you can one-hit KO them with Shoat.)
Nope, but one of the tentacles (bottom left?) can be ohkoed and the rest can be hit with ice rods.
Which means spending money, unfortunately...I'm going to start calculating item costs next. I was wrong when I said we'd only be spending money on Echo Screens and Smoke Bombs. We're also going to need rods (at least four Ice Rods, three for the Tentacles and one for the boss in Thamasa) and Sprint Shoes (preferably three pairs.)
Another note on rod usage: The one good stat Kutan has is his Magic (33, which is tolerable,) so rod breaking is a very good idea for any battle in which he might actually be fighting.
Jyzero wrote:
Another thing to try:
-Enter the South Figaro dungeon by the exit to take the Earring.
