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Posted: 3/21/2008 5:20 PM
Post subject: Default character names or A B C D?
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
I think this is a question asked by nearly all TASers who run games in which you can choose/change the character names. The main argument in favor of changing character names is that it saves time (1 or more frames per letter) when the name is used in dialogue in the game. Some games don't write each letter 1 frame at a time, but for those who do, that's a valid question to ask. The main argument against changing names is that it's more entertaining, or should I say more appealing to the viewers to see the original names. It would add to the entertainment value of the movie. But this is all known already. However, I'm posting this to bring a new argument to the question, by asking another question: Should a movie be obsoleted by another movie if the only difference between the two is shorter character names in the new movie? The reason I'm asking this is because I personally think that changing character names doesn't add anything to a movie. I think that frame improvements attributed to shorter names are not frames gained because of better tactics, precision or TASing skills, and therefore shouldn't justify obsoletion (and therefore shouldn't justify changing character names) Please vote and let me know what you guys think.
Posted: 3/21/2008 5:27 PM
Post subject: Re: Default character names or A B C D?
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Halamantariel wrote:
Should a movie be obsoleted by another movie if the only difference between the two is shorter character names in the new movie?
Definitely not. This is a cheap timesaver that doesn't noticeably shorten the experience, yet quickly robs the movie of either individuality (in case you name the main character with a handle you've come up yourself), or newbie-friendliness (inexperienced people will have troubles relating the character names everyone uses to A/B/C/etc., which will more likely lead to annoyance than to delight).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 3/21/2008 5:28 PM
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atro_city
Active player (255)
Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 476
Most games that let you choose character names are pretty long, so a few seconds of improvement from shorter names in dialog is fairly pointless in my opinion.
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcuV2JdaBYY]Streets of Rage 3 (2 players)[/url]
Posted: 3/21/2008 6:20 PM
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Baxter
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Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
The answer to the question is obviously "no". There are however more difficult questions. For instance, at NES metroid, some TASes use a code to be suitless. Obviously, a TAS which is faster less frames than it takes to input the code would be rejected, if the code wasn't used. However, inputting a different name can affect the randomness in the game. Maybe, if someone wants to make an improvement with armor on, but is unable to not lose frame due to worse randomness, even though there might be another small improvement. This would mean that each TAS needs to be suitless, or else it would be relatively slower. (this was just a hypothetical example... not sure whether this is actually the case) This would mean that the time measured for a TAS is the time after the name input is over (or in the case of for instance OoT, even accounted for longer cutscenes). Now I would ask, does this also apply for games where no name has to be entered? For instance Tetris, Dr Mario, Wetrix (and so on). If someone gets a way faster game by waiting 10 seconds before starting it, but has a longer input time for waiting at the start menu, would it count as faster or not? I would say, "no". This would allow theoretically infinite long waits, and being 'lucky' with randomness is also a part of TASing. Answering "no" to both of these questions seems to contradict itself (even though I would say "no" to both). So my next question is, is there a difference between being able to enter a name before starting the game, or pressing start before starting the game? Why would you be allowed to wait longer at one without people considering it as "losing frames", while at the other, waiting before starting the game is considered "losing frames"? (sorry if this post is considered off topic)
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 3/21/2008 6:25 PM
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LagDotCom
Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK
I, like Baxter, enjoy saying "no". Sometimes choosing a funny or particularly apt character name creates entertainment, which is what the site is about, after all. I particularly enjoyed you typing in "Halamantariel & Nitrodon" in Earthbound, by the way. :)
Voted NO for NO reason
Posted: 3/21/2008 6:25 PM
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
@ Baxter: I would appreciate it if this poll would stay on topic for as long as possible... What you ask is not related to character names. Waiting before pressing start is part of luck manipulation. Of course names could be used for luck manipulation too, but that's not the question here. I suggest you create another topic to discuss those questions of yours in detail. I don't think this poll is the right place for that discussion (even though I do think there is debate material on your questions too, I would just like it if this poll stayed on topic).
Posted: 3/21/2008 6:32 PM
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
LagDotCom wrote:
I particularly enjoyed you typing in "Halamantariel & Nitrodon" in Earthbound, by the way. :)
That is exactly my point for creating this poll. See, inputing "Halamantariel & Nitrodon" took quite a while. I could have just entered "A" and it would have been fast as hell. But the point is that those frames "lost" in entering that long name are not frames lost because of poor TASing skills or poor tactics or whatever else. Those frames are used to enter valid and meaningful names. That's the whole point of this poll really. Let's say that someone made another Earthbound movie, but named Ness, Paula, Jeff, Poo, King, Steak and Rockin A B C D E F G, and entered A as the player's name, but everything else was the same. Would that movie obsolete my movie if those shorter names were the only difference? (Let's say it would not change luck, even though it does). I would say no, it shouldn't obsolete it. Because it shouldn't obsolete it, the player also shouldn't enter shorter names then, since it's not obsoletion material anyway, don't you agree? That's the question I'm asking here.
Posted: 3/21/2008 6:38 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
If there were other improvements, I wouldn't be opposed to any other names, and even in case of "A" it wouldn't be a decisive factor if the movie was clearly superior (I'd still not like the naming, though).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 3/21/2008 7:29 PM
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AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
I'd vote against such obsoletion. Here I'll try to analyse my attitude with terms of MovieRatings system. From this aspect, for me such cheap tricks lower entertainment value approx. by 1 point. And I doubt time improvement to be significant enough to rise technical value by whole 1 point. Well, only if there are other improvements and interesting tricks. But even in the case of parity ("Ent-1, Tech+1") total rating result is gonna be little lower, because IIRC entertainment has bigger weight in current rating formula. So with such figures in my mind I doubt I'd see new movie being superior, even with some amount of new stuff among cheap ways.
Posted: 3/21/2008 7:34 PM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1416)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
To the question, "Should a movie where the only change is a shorter name entry obsolete an older movie?" the answer, I would think, is "No." It is not sufficient for obsoletion because all they did was change something that wasn't even related the gameplay in the slightest. However, if they did that along with other things, such as new tricks or tactics the former author missed, or if the name itself affects luck more favorably (see Dragon Warrior for an example of that), then I have absolutely no issues with obsoletion. Even if the name were changed from "Ferret" to "?".
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:00 PM
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upthorn
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Sega TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TASer of 2007
no no no no no. In fact, if the only change between two runs is using default or custom names instead of single character ones, the interesting names should obsolete the single character ones.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:15 PM
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Phil
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Yes, if the name changes something for the game like in Dragon Warrior and Monopoly and many many other games. Yes if the author also improves other part(s) of the movie. :P No, if it's just for the sake of saving 1-2 frames.
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:21 PM
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
Phil wrote:
Yes, if the name changes something for the game like in Dragon Warrior and Monopoly and many many other games. Yes if the author also improves other part(s) of the movie. :P No, if it's just for the sake of saving 1-2 frames.
Amen, Phil. Amen. I think you nailed what I wanted to come out of this "debate".
upthorn wrote:
In fact, if the only change between two runs is using default or custom names instead of single character ones, the interesting names should obsolete the single character ones.
And that is the other thing I wanted to come out. I think if it can be proven that a movie is faster than another one, even if the movie is technically longer but only because of character names, it should still obsolete the other one.
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:21 PM
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superjupi
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
If the ONLY frame improvements were made in character name creation, I join the resounding 'no' vote. But, if the name change affected the game elsewhere in regards to luck manipulation, I'd give it the okay. I'm with upthorn on the interesting name priority, though.
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:26 PM
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Baxter
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
TAS of 2013 SNES TAS of 2013 Speedy TAS of 2007 Innovative TAS of 2007
Phil wrote:
Yes, if the name changes something for the game like in Dragon Warrior and Monopoly and many many other games.
This also solves the thing I mentioned.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 3/21/2008 8:49 PM
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Tristal
Joined: 7/10/2007
Posts: 280
Voted no before even reading the thread. I will point out though, if you needed to input your name in Super Mario Bros, I'd bet the farm that you guys would fight over the frames saved in it and it'd be a much more controversial topic.
Posted: 3/21/2008 10:08 PM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Expert player (2073)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
If that is the only difference, then that shouldn't even be a question. On the subject of what character names should be, well, it depends on the game. In my opinion, if a character's default name is meaningful, it should be used. If not, any name can be used, including one-character names. If a one-character name is used, the best ones to use are "I", "U", and non-alphanumeric characters.
Posted: 3/22/2008 5:10 AM
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superjupi
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
FractalFusion wrote:
If a one-character name is used, the best ones to use are "I", "U", and non-alphanumeric characters.
Don't forget 'G' and 'B'. '7' works well in a pinch, too.
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
Posted: 3/22/2008 5:40 PM
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Oddity
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 178
I don't think a run should be obsoleted just for that reason. Because people seem to be bothered by it. If people weren't bothered then perhaps, but it's practically a paradox of sorts since if people weren't bothered by it, they would always put A B C D and there wouldn't be a debate, which further reinstates my first sentence of this post. Thus a new run would have to bring something more to the table. (Personally, I would name my characters A B C D.) Funny, I probably wouldn't care unless this poll was brought up, thinking that obsoleting a video due to letter names would be fine. To me it's more of a challenge of sorts to be more creative with yourself rather than just submitting a run with letter changes. Which would be quite incredibly pointless in itself, by the way. Also, to try to counterargue myself again, let's say someone does a run with just letter changes and whines about it being faster. It should not obsolete the previous movie due to the other factor of submission for this site: entertainment. Actually, due to this balancing of the abstraction that is entertainment with the objectivity that is time saving, the submission process seems like a pretty shakey ground, so a bunch of thought like this is necessary.
<^>v AB X LR s
Posted: 3/22/2008 8:54 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Should shorter names be selected (when they save frames) when starting a new TAS of some RPG? Maybe. Depends on the case, really. (If it is done, I really prefer if people used rational characters (such as "C" instead of "Charmander", etc.) instead of some confusing character (such as "!", as used in some run).) Should a movie obsolete another, with the only difference between them being the shorter names? Definitely not. In the vast majority of cases we are talking about several-hours-long RPG runs. Saving some seconds because of shorter names isn't really an issue IMO.
Posted: 3/22/2008 10:40 PM
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Xkeeper
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Tristal wrote:
Voted no before even reading the thread.
"Default or A/B/C/D" isn't a yes-or-no question :P I prefer longer names that have some interesting thing about them. However, some (like "!" for Dragon Warrior) are more amusing.
Perma-banned
Posted: 3/23/2008 7:46 PM
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Callmewoof
Joined: 5/11/2006
Posts: 71
Just a note on Hala's example of earthbound, in that specific game the frames saved wouldn't just be on character creation/naming, but throughout the entire game, as each action in battle and talking to npcs and pretty much everything uses the player name at a 1-frame-per-letter rate. So when it comes to: 
The kraken emits a pale green light. The effects on kraken are gone. The effects on ness are gone. The effects on paula are gone. The effects on Jeff are gone. The effects on Poo are gone. Ness uses PSI Rockin. Paula uses Freeze. Jeff uses a bottle rocket. Poo uses freeze. Ness and his party win the battle. Ness reaches level 30. Ness reaches level 31. Ness learns PSI Rockin Beta. Paula reaches level 28. Paula learns PSI Fire Beta. Paula reaches level 29. etc etc etc etc
The above example is just one battle that took only ONE round to complete (I have a .smv of a 1-round kraken fight). Now imagine if we had A, B, C, D, & E (psi rockin) for names instead. Due to the game's frame rule, that's a difference of at least 35+ frames. And that's only on a 1-round fight (the current earthbound tas is a 2-round battle on kraken). Every single battle in the game would, in theory, be 20-100+ frames faster, more or less depending on level-ups and length and whatnot. And then factor in the immense amount of NPC talking that will use player names, and the current tas is 3 1/2 hours long and well... In the end I would say that A B C D are not as attractive unless necessary. But for the example of earthbound, it's not a mere 10 frames saved at the start of the game. Are 'good names' worth the minutes of text? I can't say its 1 or 5 or 25, because I'm not bored enough to count every instance of names in the current run, but I know it would add up VERY quickly. In a strange way it almost reminds me of the debate in super metroid with door transitions, if anyone remembers that.
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Posted: 3/23/2008 8:45 PM
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Halamantariel
Player (105)
Joined: 1/30/2005
Posts: 564
Location: Québec, Canada
Callmewoof wrote:
Earthbound names stuff
Still, do you think that using shorter names should obsolete the default names run if the only difference were the names? Even if it would mean like 5 minutes total? That's the point of the debate here. I don't think such a run should obsolete the other run, which means that using shorter names serves no purpose at all (assuming it doesn't change randomness, which in this game it does, but it doesn't mean luck would be better with shorter names).
Posted: 3/23/2008 9:17 PM
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Mitjitsu
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If the run is a short competive run then it would probally be acceptable, much like the obseleted short CT run. I feel the runner was wrong to personalise the main characters name. But in a long run it wouldn't be acceptable or would most likely make no difference.
Posted: 3/23/2008 9:39 PM
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mmbossman
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I get the feeling this thread is not so much hypothetical as it is "I started a game and gave the characters really long names, but because of the text rules in the game, it will make the run x minutes longer. But I really don't want to start over. Please vindicate my decision with this hypothetical poll." True or no, I don't think a run should be obsoleted by a submission who's only improvement is faster names, but I also think that if the names have as much impact as callmewoof indicates, they should be shortened when a run is began. So that way you don't have to worry about it being obsoleted by a movie that finds 1 or 2 new tricks AND makes the names shorter.
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