Post by got4n

Posted: 9/17/2013 7:01 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Changing to rush coil for the first ladder is faster since you can also use rush for the second screen as well as in the spike room. The time saved in those three parts makes up for the time it takes to switch weapons (70 frames). As for the boss pattern, killing enemies changes the RNG and is the best way to manipulate the pattern without waiting. In this level, there are plenty of enemies to kill, especially since the birds drop stones which also change the RNG when shot (only the big piece. The little fragments can be shot but don't change the RNG).

Posted: 1/25/2014 3:32 PM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

Alright, maybe I'll get back in this game, I did found some X Position & Y Position value, speed is useless since it's regular, also, I did found 5 theorical values of RNG. CT Table, only works with 3.5-1749 CT Table for MegaMan 9 USA Also forget the lua, it just glitches out

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 12/21/2014 12:10 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Anyone got a route planned out for this game?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 12/21/2014 9:52 AM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

AngerFist wrote:

Anyone got a route planned out for this game?

There's already a TAS route I think? That's why diggidoyo started TASed it and me too, but we both stopped lol :p (we didn't TASed together)

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 12/21/2014 6:17 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Link to video Well, I kind of ran into a little wall after the first two stages of the Concrete Man -> Weakness order route. I no longer have the dtm but the time was 3:02 and it's still up on YouTube, so shouldn't be to difficult to reproduce/improve. Although, that run was using the weapon switching hack which, after further consideration, does not belong in this TAS. As I stated before, the options after that point are to continue with the weakness order into Jewel Man, or go through Hornet Man first to speed up Jewel Man's mini-boss. Also, because it takes 5 stages instead of 4 to get the Rush Jet, and it's most useful in Tornado Man and Plug Man's stage, I'm thinking of something more like: Concrete>Galaxy>Hornet>Jewel>Splash>Plug>Tornado>Magma Another possible route goes: Tornado>Splash>Concrete>Magma>Hornet>Galaxy>Jewel>Plug This route is used the in the record 19:18 in-game time run, and it has some benefits by having the Tornado Blow so early. And a final possible route is: Concrete>Magma>Galaxy>Hornet>Jewel>Splash>Plug>Tornado This one is used in the record 32:01 real time run. The benefit here is that Rush Jet is available for all three stages it's most useful in. My plan was to make a quasi-optimized run of all of the routes, compare the times, and hope for a significant time difference. Then I would go simply back through and refine the better one. At this point I think that's what still needs to be done. Also, this game does have a few glitches that should be investigated. There was one incident of Mega Man zipping through the floor during the fight with Concrete Man and the boss instantly died. This was during the time trial though, so I'm not sure if it's possible in a run. I was unable to replicate it. Another glitch is shown here: Link to video This one looks promising because it was done in a regular run and it can save a ton of time on that phase.

Posted: 12/21/2014 9:57 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (863)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 518
Location: Hell...

That's a pretty interesting glitch! I wonder how much time do you think it'd save?

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 12/21/2014 10:06 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Want to team up Diggi? Edit: Your link to the concrete man zipping glitch is down. Edit 2: Suffering from a desync and we haven't barely start working on Concrete Man..

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 12/23/2014 7:47 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

I'd be down to collaborate on this. What were you thinking, each pick a separate route to see if there's a significant time difference, then refine the best one? Or is there a more efficient method? As for the desyncs, I haven't used Dolphin since I finished the TAS with Bass for MM10 so I don't know how far it's capabilities have improved, but I always found excessive rerecording to desync quite often. If that's still the case, the only fix I found was to avoid rerecording as much as possible, simply by manually recording frame numbers and inputs for a segment (few screens at a time), and then going back through frame by frame without rerecording. That's why the two MM10 runs have so few rerecords. Hopefully that isn't still necessary. As you can imagine, it was incredibly tedious to finish the entire game (twice!) like that and was one of the main reasons why I stopped TAS'ing this in the first place. I figured I'd come back to it when the issues were resolved for convenience sake. Is there a TAS suitable version I should be downloading?

GoddessMaria15 wrote:

That's a pretty interesting glitch! I wonder how much time do you think it'd save?

If it can exploited correctly, then I'd say it could save up to 7 or 8 seconds on that fight because he wont be able to phase away. Then again, the creator of the video did mention he possibly used Tornado Blow as the means to accomplish it. If that's true, then it would not be a useful glitch for the TAS. T. Blow energy is incredibly scarce and even setting up the glitch would consume all the time saved.

Posted: 12/23/2014 12:00 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Come to irc (#tas-mp) so we can discuss matters diggi. Currently teaming up with Got4n. We have began working on Concrete Man. Download version dolphin-master-4.0-4796-x64

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 12/23/2014 1:30 PM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1738)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4980
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

diggidoyo wrote:

As for the desyncs, I haven't used Dolphin since I finished the TAS with Bass for MM10 so I don't know how far it's capabilities have improved, but I always found excessive rerecording to desync quite often.

Well, for most games, it seems quite fine now, but a select few seem to desync still. If it ever happens, please report it on that thread.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 12/27/2014 9:17 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Alright, downloaded the same version. I did manage to find these .dtm's on my computer, but I can't even get them to play with the version we are using so I'm not sure how helpful they can be. Tornado Man Concrete Man Finishing up the holiday festivies soon so I'll stay in the chatroom you mentioned for now, but I think our time zones are pretty far apart. Can you send me your dtm? Also, yes, the link I posted for the concrete man boss fight zip glitch only shows the discussion that arose afterwards; I can't find the video anymore. I do remember seeing it years ago, though, and there was definitely some funny business going on there. It has to do with the way concrete man shoots his first volley of concrete shots. I believe he got hit by one and then was forced through the floor by another, after which the boss instantly died. Like I said though, nothing I tried forced me through the floor. I already analyzed the concrete shot zip to find the most effective use of it. Basically, you run through it as it forms until you are one frame past the halfway point, and then jump for maximum zip. Double/triple zips are also possible as I used in the video I posted.

Posted: 12/27/2014 11:31 AM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

diggidoyo wrote:

Alright, downloaded the same version. I did manage to find these .dtm's on my computer, but I can't even get them to play with the version we are using so I'm not sure how helpful they can be. Tornado Man Concrete Man Finishing up the holiday festivies soon so I'll stay in the chatroom you mentioned for now, but I think our time zones are pretty far apart. Can you send me your dtm? Also, yes, the link I posted for the concrete man boss fight zip glitch only shows the discussion that arose afterwards; I can't find the video anymore. I do remember seeing it years ago, though, and there was definitely some funny business going on there. It has to do with the way concrete man shoots his first volley of concrete shots. I believe he got hit by one and then was forced through the floor by another, after which the boss instantly died. Like I said though, nothing I tried forced me through the floor. I already analyzed the concrete shot zip to find the most effective use of it. Basically, you run through it as it forms until you are one frame past the halfway point, and then jump for maximum zip. Double/triple zips are also possible as I used in the video I posted.

If your dtm doesn't play it's pretty normal, you should try to replay them on the same dolphin version and it should sync, what version you used? :P And, these runs uses w.Switching no?

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 12/27/2014 10:43 PM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

Link to video Might be processing, but hype!

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 12/27/2014 10:49 PM

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AntyMew

It/Its

Encoder, Player (35)

Joined: 10/22/2014
Posts: 425

y u miss so much D: Otherwise great WIP! ^.^ Oh, and out of curiosity, are you guys going for in-game or real time?

Just a Mew! 〜 It/She ΘΔ 〜 ███████

Posted: 12/27/2014 11:43 PM
(Edited: 12/27/2014 11:48 PM)

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Clarification: I spent a good amount of time dealing with the boss (and other parts of the stage aswell). The game's RNG is stubborn like a donkey. It seems no matter what I do, I cannot manipulate the boss to do things my way. We have tried a lot of things. We went back and killed more enemies, less enemies in order to manipulate Concrete Man's pattern to no avail. However, I deliberately delayed hitting the second gate one frame later so he wouldn't do his long jump. So there is some window of opportunity for manipulation. I am quite proud how the boss battle went. I spent several days and good amount of rerecording doing the best out of this situation. It was overall definitely faster using Rush Coil. The missed shots in various ares are what we call aesthetic choices :D

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 12/27/2014 11:47 PM

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AntyMew

It/Its

Encoder, Player (35)

Joined: 10/22/2014
Posts: 425

AngerFist wrote:

The missed shots in various ares are what we call aesthetic choices :D

I think they look sloppy :( Oh well, it's your choice

Just a Mew! 〜 It/She ΘΔ 〜 ███████

Posted: 12/28/2014 2:03 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

got4n wrote:

If your dtm doesn't play it's pretty normal, you should try to replay them on the same dolphin version and it should sync, what version you used? :P And, these runs uses w.Switching no?

Yea I tried that. Immediately stops playback and returns the error: Fatal desync. Aborting playback. (Error in PlayWiimote: 7!= 4, byte 300.) Thanks for the posting the run. I'd have to agree with Anty-Lemon here. It looks more aesthetically pleasing when all of Mega Man's actions have a purpose. Also the boss fight was noticeably slower than the one I posted. It's possible to keep 100% uptime on him without taking damage. Just listening to the audio track, you can actually hear a few pauses in the damage (before the 5th, 15th, and 25th hits). From what I remember I was able to manipulate his jumps (as in avoid them entirely) by being a certain distance from him. If the invincibility is the same as MM10, then he should take a hit every 20 frames. As for the RNG, it should be the same as MM10 but it's been so long I don't remember. If that's the case, then yes simply waiting a few frames (I like to hide wait frames in other areas throughout the level) will change the pattern, as does killing enemies. If you guys are going to continue with that route I can go ahead and run through the tornado man route to get an estimate on the clear time. Then we can refine the one that's more efficient. EDIT: I managed to find an old encode of me finishing Concrete Man without using the weapon switch hack (I knew I kept this junk around for a reason haha). You'll notice I unlock the achievement "Quick Draw C" which is done by defeating Concrete Man in under 10 seconds. The run you posted was just shy of this mark. I saved immediately afterwards and the in-game time is 1:27. I uploaded it for reference. I think the weapon usage throughout the stage looks cleaner here as well, and I'm pretty sure I squeezed a few more frames out of the stage run. It's unfortunate I no longer have the dtm, but again, if you listen to the audio, the last note of the background music before the boss intro is cut a few frames short compared to yours. I noticed you didn't use rush coil at 1:17 and I think there's a slightly faster way past the green enemies that pop out of the pits in the beginning. Link to video

Posted: 12/28/2014 12:02 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Damn if I could get the same manipulation with Concrete man then it would be awesome. Feel free to improve my boss fight. What's peculiar in my boss fight is sometimes (2-3 times) I cannot shot at a certain frame even though it wasn't lagging. So that might be part of the answer to why you hear pauses between my shots other than the apparent "taking damage wait" sections. Yeah the wait for each hit is roughly 20 frames. The encode of Got4n is slightly choppy so there is that aswell. The part where you used Rush Coil at 1:17 should be slower. I tested that area a lot before establishing it's faster to not use Rush Coil. Much obliged by your feedback.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 12/28/2014 12:52 PM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Former player

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

If having a faster boss fight triggers one more achievement screen, then it’s probably faster to lose time at the boss so that you can skip that screen.

Posted: 12/28/2014 8:12 PM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

ALAKTORN wrote:

If having a faster boss fight triggers one more achievement screen, then it’s probably faster to lose time at the boss so that you can skip that screen.

You're correct, but that challenge will just be unlocked later during the refight in Wily 4 when he can be beaten in a few seconds with his weakness weapon. But you do bring up a good point in that certain challenges should be avoided, if possible. In MM10, the achievements popped up without hindering progress so I got as many as I could. But in this game, the pop ups take about a second to dismiss. This means challenges such as Bunny Hop (Clear any stage jumping 50 times or less) and Fantastic 9 (Accumulate 9 lives) and possibly a few others need to be avoided. In this run, I unlocked: Hard Rock (Reach a boss' room without getting damaged) Speed Metal (Reach a boss' room without stopping once) Blue Bomber (Defeat a boss without getting damaged) Eco Fighter (Defeat a boss with only the mega buster) Quick Draw C (Defeat Concrete Man in 10 seconds or less) However, it may seem that Hard Rock, speed metal, and blue bomber are also unnecessary challenges, in that the time it takes to avoid them is less than the time it takes to dismiss the unlock. This is true for the first level, but since the challenge can only be unlocked once, this allows us to complete all the rest of the stages without purposely stopping or taking damage to avoid an achievement. The time gained from all the levels makes up for the time lost dismissing the pop up. Although, another point could be made for this superplay of a modern TAS to actually include as many achievements as feasible in a slight speed/entertainment trade-off. The two I mentioned earlier can be easily obtained without even wasting any time (besides the second to confirm the unlock) and another example is Bust a Move (Don't miss with the Mega Buster and clear the game), although that will be unlocked after the credits, so it wont actually impede progress at all and, in my opinion, should be unlocked anyways.

Posted: 1/4/2015 7:41 AM

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got4n

Experienced player (588)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

Link to video Improved the Concrete Man fight, looks good I think(?). I'm losing 17 frames here, 10 frames because of the R.Coil calls Rush first before being able to shoot, the 7 frames are to manipulate RNG :p

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 1/5/2015 9:16 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

got4n wrote:

Link to video Improved the Concrete Man fight, looks good I think(?). I'm losing 17 frames here, 10 frames because of the R.Coil calls Rush first before being able to shoot, the 7 frames are to manipulate RNG :p

Looks better, but a few minor annoyances bug my OCD. What's with this missed shots again? Doesn't belong in a tool-assisted superplay where every move can be precisely calculated. Also, wait frames (the seven frames you needed to get him to do the correct pattern) can be hidden anywhere through out the level instead of abruptly stopping so the TAS flows better. As an example, the first stage of MM10 (Commando Man) needed over 50 waiting frames to get him to do the correct pattern. Instead of standing still for almost a second, I used ever so slightly sub-optimal routes through the level that eliminated this wait. Doing it this way, the TAS appears as optimal as it is, and you wont need to explain your actions as you felt the need to do here. Other than that, the fight looked good. Is the save time 1:27 now? And can you upload the dtm again.

Posted: 1/5/2015 10:47 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

I won't go too much debating the missed shots. But I'll say this, just because it's a tas does not mean you don't have the liberty to be spontaneous. Maybe next stage we will act completely differently. The viewer surely knows it was done on purpose as we do it several times. If you are still reluctant to accept this then feel free to redo those parts. Time is a luxury many don't have. Here is the dtm file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9z6naz0k0hun4lj/mm9bettercman2015.dtm?dl=0 We are leaning towards picking Magma Man after this. Thoughts?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 1/5/2015 12:09 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (583)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

I don't see anything wrong with a healthy debate. You mention the viewers will know it was done on purpose, but it only brings about the question as to what this purpose is. It doesn't manipulate anything, it looks sloppy (as mentioned by Anty-Lemon), and furthermore, it forgoes the opportunity to unlock a rather hard achievement (Bust A Move - Don't miss with the Mega Buster and clear the game), for no apparent gain. However, I absolutely condone spontaneity. I try to manipulate large energy refill pellets out of every enemy, and look for unorthodox tactics such as the one around the 1:00 minute mark here: Link to video Granted, we're kind of limited in our options for this game without weapon switching, but I'm only highlighting this since it's only been one level and is relatively quick to correct now that we have a complete .dtm of the level for reference. I just wasn't sure if this precedent was going to continue into the rest of the stages. And yes, looking at our options, Magma Man is going to be the best bet for continuing. That will give us the hornet chaser we need to clear jewel man's mini-boss.

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