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Posted: 5/20/2005 10:25 AM
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Vatchern
Player (84)
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Maybe if you jumped out right, then turned left for 1 frame to shoot the item, then right again to just barely land on it by like.. 1 pixel (to make it fancy) then bounce jump over to the ledge. Try that out.
http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html
Posted: 5/20/2005 11:04 AM
(Edited: 5/20/2005 11:17 AM)
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Vatchern wrote:
Maybe if you jumped out right, then turned left for 1 frame to shoot the item, then right again to just barely land on it by like.. 1 pixel (to make it fancy) then bounce jump over to the ledge. Try that out.
I don't think that's possible because the item3 is tossed with a high arc, you'd have to jump really far right before you turned around and chucked it or else it'd go over the block. Maybe if you up agianst the block when chuck it would start below you, you could pause to stop your verticle velocity right before if that'd help. Even if you have to jump to the right ledge first I'm very confident it's faster because it's about half the horizontal back tracking distance, there's some other small factors but I think they about cancle.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/20/2005 11:08 AM
(Edited: 1/23/2022 7:49 PM)
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Spider-Waffle wrote:
You can make this jump. I placed the item3 by jumping to the right ledge, then jumping back left and tossing it, then I landed on it. This might be faster than the orginal route. If you could place the item3 without having to jump across right first it would be quite a bit faster.
Is your idea better than this Blublu's idea? https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockman2-heat-method1.fcm - new method - 47.83 seconds https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockman2-heat-method2.fcm - old method - 48.97 seconds
Posted: 5/20/2005 11:27 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Posts: 1049
The looks like about the same horizontal back tracking, there's a slight wait in the verticle direction for Blublu's (I think this could be reduced by pausing to switch right before you toss it so you don't go as high afterwards) there might also be for mine. It would be very close.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/20/2005 11:33 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
I think this could be reduced by pausing to switch right before you toss it so you don't go as high afterwards
Please try it. :)
Posted: 5/21/2005 12:00 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I'm not that advanced :\
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/21/2005 12:08 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I was wondering, what exactly are all the conditions for getting each of the 3 items?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/21/2005 12:12 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
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Location: Arzareth
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I was wondering, what exactly are all the conditions for getting each of the 3 items?
Item1: Beat Heatman Item2: Beat Airman Item3: Beat Flashman
Posted: 5/21/2005 10:50 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Ok, I like the route used then. I was wondering, why is clash not used against quickman the second time around?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/21/2005 11:40 AM
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Zoizite
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 146
Location: Dirty South, USA.
Because all of the crash bombs are used on the previous boss, and you don't refill between Wily stages.
If for honesty, you want apologies, I don't sympathize.
Posted: 5/22/2005 3:28 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Posts: 1049
I'm guessing you can't zip on the last thin platform in woodman's level, where the gorilas/large moneys are, why is that?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/22/2005 12:11 PM
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Bisqwit
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'm guessing you can't zip on the last thin platform in woodman's level, where the gorilas/large moneys are, why is that?
How do you suggest doing it?
Posted: 5/22/2005 11:51 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
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I was just thinking using an item1 like normally, but I see now that it's too small of a gap vertically
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/23/2005 3:06 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Can you pause and switch to Item-1 while an Item-2 is on screen? I don't think you can, but I'm not sure and am currently to lazy to test :-P
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 5/23/2005 3:32 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
jxq2000 wrote:
Can you pause and switch to Item-1 while an Item-2 is on screen? I don't think you can, but I'm not sure and am currently to lazy to test :-P
Nope, but wouldn't that be nice. I have a sugestion for gorilla part of woodman's level: Ride the first item2 under the 3rd gorilla, then jump up onto the platform with 3rd gorilla to the right of the gorilla, as far right on the platform as possible, maybe run left on the item2 for a bit to get the gorilla to be further left when you jump up so you don't have to take a hit. Then use a new item2 to jump over the last gorilla, using it as far to the right as posible to conserve it's juice for the last part of the level, or switch to a weapon (like clash), and kill the last gorila and switch back to item2 so you'll be able to ride item2 in last part all the way. Another thing: I checked the parts for the tunnels before metalman and clashman again and noticed zipping for both requires 1 aditional weapon switch and they're the same total zipping distance. The only thing I could come up with is the hopping helicopter guys would interfer with the zipping on clash's tunnel.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/23/2005 10:24 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
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I'm questioning wether doing bubbleman first/second is better than last. That is, wether having bubble for the heatman fight is better than having everything for the bubbleman level, namely metal gears for the bubbleman fight; they might also help in the level with reducing lag, and the items maybe be of some use.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/23/2005 10:33 AM
(Edited: 5/23/2005 11:34 AM)
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'm questioning wether doing bubbleman first/second is better than last. That is, wether having bubble for the heatman fight is better than having everything for the bubbleman level, namely metal gears for the bubbleman fight; they might also help in the level with reducing lag, and the items maybe be of some use.
Very good point. Item1, specifically, can be used for some great benefit in the Bubbleman level. Example: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/jp-mm2/bubble5r.mpg (5 MB) - approx. 10 seconds faster than when played first. (The level alone!) Using something other than bubbles against Heat Man must be no more than 10 seconds slower for the route switch to be a good idea.
Posted: 5/23/2005 10:45 AM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
zipping for both requires 1 aditional weapon switch
Please doublecheck your calculations. Notice the difference between "weapon would have to be changed anyway" and "an extra weaponswitch from nowhere". :) (No, I did not doublecheck. I'm just analyzing what Finalfighter told me...)
Posted: 5/23/2005 11:30 AM
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CoolBumpty
Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158
Well, going to BubbleMan last would mean that it would take 7 metal hits instead of 28 (and I'm quite sure that they would take less time per shot since you can aim the metal weapon), which, according to the comparison of the fight with BubbleMan on Morimoto and Finalfighter's run and the fight on Morimoto's old version, saves about 10 more seconds, from about 13.41 to 3.55 (using a stopwatch, from the moment the bar is filled until the final hit). For the HeatMan fight, there seems to be about a second of delay in between each hit, and it would take 14 hits compared to 5 with bubble lead. (info taken from http://www.mmhp.net/GameHints/MM2-Data.html#Damage ) That would take up about 9 seconds, assuming that the fight would be pretty much the same with bubble lead compared to the normal weapon other than the number of hits. There would be one more weapon change once in the boss room for BubbleMan, but it seems that the bubble lead weapon travels slower than the regular weapon, saving some time ideally. But all of that is small in comparison to the large difference we're hypothetically getting. But I haven't personally done a fight with HeatMan using the normal weapon, so there's likely some issue there.
Posted: 5/23/2005 12:45 PM
(Edited: 5/23/2005 7:50 PM)
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CoolBumpty
Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158
I made a completely unoptimized attempt at HeatMan using the regular weapon, and it took about 22.81 seconds. In Morimoto and FinalFighter's run it took a bit over 6 seconds, not including the weapon change (which would be required for a run using this path as well). It's in increase of about 17 seconds at most (since my boss fight wasn't optimized in any way whatsoever), and those 17 seconds seem like they should be less than the 20 seconds saved. So, unless there's some weird problem we haven't thought of, it should save a lot of time (a few seconds I think) to do FlashMan first, HeatMan second, and BubbleMan any time after AirMan. I have no clue how this wasn't calculated by Morimoto if this does end up working. The lack of using item 3 to save some time in the HeatMan level is one thing, but this error looks too glaring to be real. Please look for flaws in my logic or testing. Edit: Oh, and when I said "do FlashMan first, HeatMan second, and BubbleMan any time after AirMan.", I meant MetalMan instead of AirMan.
Posted: 5/23/2005 12:47 PM
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Bisqwit
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CoolBumpty wrote:
I have no clue how this wasn't calculated by Morimoto if this does end up working.
I'll ask Finalfighter for his opinion in this question....
Posted: 5/23/2005 1:08 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Great work you guys! My guess is they overlooked the usefullnes of item1 in bubbleman's level. New route(hopefully): flash,heat,air,clash,quick,metal,bubble,wood (wood could go anywhere after air, but I think clash might be of use on wood, and wood doesn't look like it's of use anywhere)
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/23/2005 1:09 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
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Location: Arzareth
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Great work you guys! My guess is they overlooked the usefullnes of item1 in bubbleman's level.
That would be strange, because the MPG I linked to was made by Finalfighter, and he was the main route planner in the movie. He also did the last edits to the movie.
Posted: 5/23/2005 1:23 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Bisqwit wrote:
That would be strange, because the MPG I linked to was made by Finalfighter, and he was the main route planner in the movie. He also did the last edits to the movie.
Well then... yes, this does seem strange. As far as the clash and metalman tunnels go here's what your looking at- Clash: starts with item3 before tunnel, needs to switch to air for clashman fight Metal: starts with item2 before tunnel, needs to switch to quick for metalman fight I had another idea but I doubt it's faster: For the first metalman fight, instead of switching to quick first, switch to a fast full ranged weapon (probably normal shot), hit metalman with this while running towrds him and then switch to quick when in range. It's an extra weaponswitch plus maybe more delay to save one quick (the boomerang) shot.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/23/2005 5:28 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
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Posts: 5712
Well, according to that damage chart, using crash bombs or quick boomerangs would cut the number of hits on HeatMan in half, but I haven't thought about the route in a long time so I wouldn't know if getting one of those weapons beforehand would mess everything up.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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