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Vatchern wrote:
Bisqwit wrote:
Vatchern wrote:
Megaman has very wierd programming..
But it makes sense to me :)
Hmm.. this may be asking too much but.. could you explain what is happening there when you get warped in basic terms? :)
Left the room? OK, go to the next room. Next room: *is actually part of a different level, but is the next room in memory*
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Post subject: Might have found a new way to save time...
Joined: 11/22/2004
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http://omega.avalanchestudios.net/personal/miscellaneous/junkruns/hurtanim_cancel_megaman2.avi This is from a speedrun on the Flash Man segment (not the one which ended up being in my full Rockman 2 speedrun, because I switched to the Japanese hard difficulty after a while). It's played with the (U) version of the ROM at easy difficulty. I get hit by the robot, but immediately regain control after my Air Shooter refill animation ends. I'm not sure how much faster this was than if I had just let myself get hit, but I'm pretty sure that it will be faster if the player is only missing one stripe of ammo. I got this completely by accident, and don't have the movie file anymore. I encoded it when it happened because I found it a dubious occurrence.
Post subject: Re: Might have found a new way to save time...
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Omega wrote:
I get hit by the robot, but immediately regain control after my Air Shooter refill animation ends. I'm not sure how much faster this was than if I had just let myself get hit, but I'm pretty sure that it will be faster if the player is only missing one stripe of ammo.
You picked a weapon refill right after getting hit. A very Lucky accident. It indeed would speed up the movie assuming 1) the A weapon is available upon entering F (not the case) 2) a weapon drop could be manipulated without delays. Of course, there could be other places where it can be used.
Joined: 11/22/2004
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Apart from in Flash Man's stage (and the exact same scene in Heat Man's stage), there are also a few occasions in Bubble Man's stage where this could apply, and maybe some in Wily 4. Plus a few occasions scattered throughout the game. But those would be my best guesses. Like you said, this only works if there's a non-default weapon selected, if the refill only fills up one stripe (the small refill gives you two stripes, right?), and if it's possible to manipulate. Not much chance of those three conditions being true in those occasions, but if there's one possibility, then it would be a cool trick to do.
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Don't forget health refills.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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Yeah, but using the Health refills means losing some health... So unless there's a "take damage to save time" place in the same level, it wouldn't work.
JXQ
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DJ FozzBozz wrote:
Yeah, but using the Health refills means losing some health...
The health you lose would be during the hit that this trick is trying to minimize the time of in the first place. But unless the weapon is out that is needed (air in this example), it may not be worth the time to switch weapons.
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Spider-Waffle is right. It'll be difficult to manipulate those things, though.
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jxq2000 wrote:
DJ FozzBozz wrote:
Yeah, but using the Health refills means losing some health...
The health you lose would be during the hit that this trick is trying to minimize the time of in the first place. But unless the weapon is out that is needed (air in this example), it may not be worth the time to switch weapons.
Well, I think he gets the refill AND the hit on the same frame... So I don't know how the game would react (since we don't know what will be inputed first: the energy drop, or the energy gain?).
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Finalfighter successfully tested this technique.. http://www.globetown.net/~rockmovie/damageenergy.mpg
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Bisqwit wrote:
Finalfighter successfully tested this technique.. http://www.globetown.net/~rockmovie/damageenergy.mpg
That's excellent! I'm glad that it works and is able to save time. :) Glad I was able to help somehow.
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Omega wrote:
That's excellent! I'm glad that it works and is able to save time. :)
Well, in that particular situation it doesn't really save any time.
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Hmm, because of the manipulation required to get the health refills to show up? Okay, maybe that's so, but still. :) It's interesting enough to see any health refill juggled around so elegantly, even if it's only able to save just one frame somewhere. EDIT: wait, I'm being stupid. Of course you can just shoot everything instead of trying to manipulate an easier damage take.
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Sometimes it might be useful, like when there's a smaller enemy which you can use to be invisible and pass another enemy which you cannot shoot. It's whole another thing if there even is such situations though.
Post subject: More techniques, more videos
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It seems Finalfighter has found more techniques: http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/bubblete.mpg -- another zipping technique in the Bubble Man level using Item1. Also, this page describes a technique that was used in the published movie, which I didn't notice: http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/tenmetsuup.htm More interesting stuff can be found at this new site of his: http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/ The "Rockman Exiles 2" movie at the site might be an interesting demonstration of tricks used in an elaborately hacked version of Rockman 2.
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Hmm, do you know if it's faster to use item 2 for the whole area or item 1 in that one section? For item 1 there's the plus of not having to switch one extra time, not having the lag from the frogs, and having item 2 available, though I don't know if that helps anywhere. For item 2 it's just a faster speed over a longer period of time. I wonder if item 2 would be helpful at the crabs? If a nice height could be found, and it doesn't cause too much lag, it might end up being faster to have that zip on the first screen and save item 2 for the end.
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I don't know.
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Coolbumpy, try it out yourself and come back with an answer :)
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If I can't even make a decent Donkey Kong run, how am I supposed to make even a trial run of Rockman 2? But well, if I have a lot of time, I'll try it. It might take me about a year just to do that one stage, though. =P I'll see about the crab part first, though, since if it's not possible to use item 2 there, it's certainly not worth saving.
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I know using item2 for the whole part only saves about 1 second. I diffinitely think doing the item1 zip is worth it. I think just doing one switch to item1 is probably going to be the way to go, then maybe using item2 for the crab part.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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Well, I was going to try out the two different methods, but I worked about half an hour and got to my first testing and got on top of the item 2, about frame perfect from the start of the level, assuming that I placed the item in the ideal place, which probably isn't true. But then the FCEU had an error and closed on me, which often happens. And when that happens, the movie isn't saved. So yeah, with that problem around, I don't think I'll be into trying the whole level, since I can't even do 1/100th of the level without losing the movie. I could do a few frames at a time and end the movie and play through the movie and start recording again, but that's just way too much effort when you think about how much easier it would be with a computer that functions properly. So I think someone else will have to work on it. So far, in terms of improvement, there's the extra use of item 3 in Heatman's stage, there's the movement of Flashman being first and Bubbleman being after Metalman, and there are possible improvements for Bubbleman's level. And I think that using item 1 in that new spot saves less than a second. And besides, if everything is done the same way as before but there are 3 uses of item 1 at the start, I think it'll be 1 short of having enough. Using item 2 at the crabs would remove 1 use of item 1, making it last until the end.
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CoolBumpty wrote:
But then the FCEU had an error and closed on me, which often happens. And when that happens, the movie isn't saved.
If you start playing your movie, and then load your most recent savestate while it's playing, you'll have your movie back post-crash (as far as your most recent savestate, anyway). I had to do this a lot because if I accidentally pressed F6 then I usually sent FCEU to the grave.
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Thank you. That helps sooooo much. =D I got a decent, though far from perfect, version of the item 2 way going. But when trying to do item 1, I realized that I couldn't. When looking at the video frame by frame, he just sort of jumps to the right of the falling platform, not over it at all, and in midair on the way down he jumps somehow even though he's not over anything. Now I realize why this idea wasn't found before, because I certainly can't make any sense of it. I can test more later, but the sun came up, so I need some sleep. =P
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Timings. Between starting the Bubbleman level (frame of gaining control) and ending the first scene (frame the screen starts scrolling vertically), the timings are: * Baxter's movie, no special weapons: 875 frames * Bisqwit's test, with item 2 launched in the beginning: 840 frames * Bisqwit's test 2, with item1 trick, using item1 to avoid the frogs: 958 frames Of course, it's not wise to use item1 to avoid the frogs. One should switch the weapons later, not there. I was just being lazy. Therefore, I made a comparison video. * Bisqwit's test 2b, without item1 trick, using item1 to avoid the frogs: 976 frames (amazing! the lag amounts to almost two seconds of time.) So the trick saves about 20-30 frames. I still don't have an exact figure how much item2 saves. All numbers are within precision of +/- 1 frames. Edit: CoolBumpty, the idea of course is to start falling at the same frame the platform starts falling. This is accomplished by walking past it at the right edge. This prevents the platform from falling out of Rockman's reach. When you want to jump, just face left and then hold A at the same frame Rockman gains foothold. You can throw the Item at the same frame you press left, and it will be thrown to the right.
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2 seconds of lag doesn't suprise me. The game really wasn't made to handle those 3 tiny frogs and it shows.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."