Topic by Vatchern

Posted: 8/10/2005 12:35 PM

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Vatchern

Player (84)

Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

http://s53.yousendit.com/d.php?id=31H0MIRTT5US43VJPQ39N6OQO4 Im not sure if this can help in anyway. i need to test it further, but you may be able to reach bosses this way. EDIT: The link does not work..

http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html

Posted: 10/3/2005 11:16 PM

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BlueBlue

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 5

Hi everyone, I was working on a project to remake Rockman 2 into flash when I came across something that I thought might help out a speedrun. It takes 7 frames from a standstill to make him start running forwards, during these frames you do not move at all. However, if you jump, you bypass these startup frames completely. I have read here that when you jump you can lose 1-2 frames, but I think the 5 frame gain each time makes up for it. Also, I read in the rockman section that he moves in groups of four frames, at 1,1,1,2 pixels. This doesn't seem to be true for rockman 2, where he runs in groups of 8 frames at 1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2. I tried to read as much as I could but if this is old information then I apologize.

Posted: 10/4/2005 2:21 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

All right, so if Bisqwit is correct, then in the first game, your speed is 1.25 pixels per frame, while in the second game, your speed is 1.375 pixels per frame. Can you figure out the movement pattern for jumping and falling then?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 10/4/2005 6:46 AM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Actually, I remember Bisqwit saying that the speed in Rockman was 1.33 pixels per frame, meaning he runs at 1, 1, 2 pixels per frame.

Posted: 10/4/2005 2:55 PM

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BlueBlue

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 5

It seems that there are many strange things in rockman (understatement). Today I'll look towards jumping/falling, I assume you want to know how it bears an impact on forwards and backwards movement? There is something else interesting that happens, though I doubt it could be put to good use in a speedrun because it deals with moving slowly. Rockman can move at two speeds: running, and nudging forward. Playing slowly, you probably would notice that before you run, you will sometimes move forward one pixel, but sometimes you will not. I don't know how the actual code for that works, but I have found a system that predicts when the one pixel move happens. If you have two groups of moving forward separated by any amount of frames, it takes 6 total frames of holding forward to move forward. If there are three such groups, then it takes 5 frames, and 4 groups only need 4 frames. I think of it in terms of "charge" points. One group of seven charge points causes you to start running. Two that add to 6, 3 that add to 5, or 4 that add to 4 will cause you to move one pixel. If you take this and assume that for each frame of running you get two additional points, and that you will move one forward for one group of 8, you can see how the 2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1 pattern of running happens. I'm sorry for my complicated explanation but this is the way I have come to think of it. I haven't yet tested to see if this view is consistant with how many "charge" points you would have left over after a run to contribute to the next one pixel move. So, I am looking forward to my investigation of jumping, and I hope that it is much less complicated than running! But, as I said before, I think the pertinent part for a speedrun is that by jumping on the first frame, you can bypass the 7 frames it takes to start running.

Posted: 10/4/2005 2:57 PM
(Edited: 10/4/2005 4:08 PM)

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

BlueBlue wrote:

But, as I said before, I think the pertinent part for a speedrun is that by jumping on the first frame, you can bypass the 7 frames it takes to start running.

Naturally. This was used in all Rockman 1-6 movies so far except the first Rockman 1 movie (Morimoto's). This is rather basic knowledge.

Posted: 10/4/2005 3:41 PM

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BlueBlue

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 5

Ah, I figured it would have been but I hadn't seen the most recent movies, since no one mentioned anything I assumed they hadn't heard of it, sorry.

Posted: 10/4/2005 9:24 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

You can also slide to avoid waiting to run, but in some games you can't do that right after getting off a ladder because they interpret the Down part of the Down+A combo first, and you just go back on the ladder.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 10/4/2005 10:18 PM

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BlueBlue

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 5

You asked for the movement pettern for jumping and falling, here's what I've found. The first frame of the jump takes you vertically nowhere, this is followed by 5 pixels up, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, ... , 0, 0, 0, 0, -1... and likewise subtracting one from your vertical speed every 4 frames. Also, it seems like the terminal velocity is -12. Releasing jump causes three frames of one pixel upward movement. However, if you release on a frame on which your speed would normally decrease, then you will only move upwards for 2 more frames. As for horizontal movement when jumping, I can't find any difference between running and jumping. Is this what you were asking for? This also seems like information that would be "rather basic knowledge."

Posted: 10/4/2005 10:24 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

But if horizontal movement is the same, how can it make you lose time?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 10/4/2005 10:55 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

BlueBlue wrote:

However, if you release on a frame on which your speed would normally decrease, then you will only move upwards for 2 more frames.

I've noticed that this exact same quirk also applies to Little Samson. Well I can't remember if it's 2 frames but you jump noticeably higher if you release the button at the right frame, probably for similar reasons. edit: Oops, I misread what you said there, didn't see the word "only".

BlueBlue wrote:

As for horizontal movement when jumping, I can't find any difference between running and jumping.

But if you jump while running, does the pattern of 2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1 reset to some point when you jump or continue where it left off?

Posted: 10/4/2005 11:25 PM

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BlueBlue

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 5

I have no experience with jumping making you lose time, that was something I read on these forums. nitsuja makes a good point though. As far as I know the pattern remains the same for jumping or running, but I only tested it by running a certain number of frames, then jumping, taking that distance and then comparing with just running the whole way. It could be that jumping has an effect on distance traveled after the jump, and maybe it takes a frame to land? As a hunch, I don't think this is the case but I will test that out. Wait, not so much a hunch, because I let both come to a halt, and they both slowed down in the same way, so I don't think a frame is lost, nor the pattern reset. I'll test it anyway, however. Edit: I think they were the same because I messed my save states up, jumping definitely has an impact on distance traveled. Edit x2: Ok, during a full jump, here is the forward movement: 1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1 The repeated frames are 1,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2 Average 1.3125 Contrasting running 1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2 Average 1.375 Sorry for the confusion!

Posted: 12/3/2005 9:39 PM

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finalfighter

Active player (274)

Joined: 4/20/2004
Posts: 219
Location: Japan,Tokyo

http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/item2bubble.mpg New tech for mm2 Item2 is used like the magnet beam. Item2 seems not to think the needle to be a wall. Of course, megaman recognizes the wall the needle.

Posted: 12/5/2005 3:22 AM

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Vatchern

Player (84)

Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

Neat!!!

http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html

Posted: 12/5/2005 7:50 AM

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Highness

Player (70)

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden

Oh. Forgot to reply. Very cool yeah. *sniffs for next full version run*

Posted: 12/13/2005 1:21 PM

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Shinryuu

Experienced player (538)

Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707

hehe.. :p im 111-112 frames ahead now.. This game is really awesome.. i like it And morimoto&FinalFighter did really goodjob with this game.. there is so many glitches/techniques what Master Ninja finalfighter have found.. :) I'll try to finish this before 8th of march 2006.. But i don't promise anything now.. And i will test some new techniques if possible

Posted: 12/13/2005 1:39 PM

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Randil

Skilled player (1885)

Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2160
Location: Norrköping, Sweden

What level are you on now, Shinryuu? 111 frames seems pretty nice, seeing how good Morimoto's and Finalfighter's video was. Oh, and I think I speak for everyone when I say: Give us a WIP! :)

My own page on this site.

Posted: 12/13/2005 2:11 PM

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A_Runnelid

Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150

Shinryuu, are you doing Heat Man's stage first, as suggested earlier in this thread, or are you using exact same boss order as in the previous movie? Andreas

Posted: 12/13/2005 2:15 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

Flash, Bubble, Heat so far. So basically the same order.

Posted: 12/13/2005 2:27 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

Since several new techniques with the items have been discovered for Bubble stage, wouldn't it be a good idea to do it later? The only thing would be that Heat man would be a lot slower. Has anyone tested how much slower, and how much time you can save in Bubble stage with items + better weapon on Bubble man?

Posted: 12/13/2005 2:28 PM

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Shinryuu

Experienced player (538)

Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707

i'll use different route it's not faster or slower.. Example. Flash,Bubble,Heat,Air,Crash,Quickman,Woodman,Metal or Flash,Bubble,Heat,Air,Woodman,Crash,Quick,Metal I will Link my WIP later.. :)

Posted: 12/13/2005 2:31 PM

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Shinryuu

Experienced player (538)

Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707

Truncated : hmm.. Heatmanstage will be so "Slow" with this Technique.. and item1,2,3 makes some lag in bubble & weapons changes takes time etc. :/ i have tried to "start" with heatmanstage but it was slower than playing Bubble or Flash as a first stage.

Posted: 12/13/2005 7:17 PM

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A_Runnelid

Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150

Truncated, there's been some testing on Heatman 1st/his item in Bubble Man's stage on pages 5 & 6 in this topic. Perhaps this could be tested more thoroughly. It definitely seems worth investigating. Andreas

Posted: 12/13/2005 7:45 PM

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Shinryuu

Experienced player (538)

Joined: 5/12/2005
Posts: 707

Damn.. im stuck in heatmanstages Annoying LONG teleport block room.. i lose over 20 frames here.. and only reason why i lose time is Teleportblock timing is randomness or there is some lag.. or i did my movements wrong http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/479/Rockman2-TAv1.1S-Shinryuu.fcm

Posted: 12/13/2005 7:54 PM

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Brushy

Former player

Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587

What rom are you using?