Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
Link to video
Here's this as well. It's the first thing they teach you in Mega Man speedrunning school, but I see a lot of newbie TASers expressing themselves with jumps like it's Super Mario Bros.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
Link to video
The answer was right under my nose all along.
Looks like this is a zipless-only strat. Any% would have to deal with the shotmen in a weird pacifist way that somehow loses less than 8 frames, and Buster-only can't do it for obvious reasons.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Lord know for how many years people keep discovering new ways of finding improvements for this game. Great job warmCabin. I hope these new improvements can be spliced into a future tas.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Lord know for how many years people keep discovering new ways of finding improvements for this game. Great job warmCabin. I hope these new improvements can be spliced into a future tas.
I've been already working on a new one which contains a couple of fixes including that menu thing warmCabin discovered. It helped me to save exactly the amount I needed to perform DelayScroll sooner at Airman's stage. I'm guessing this project is going to be at least 40-60 frames faster for now and it's going to need a hell a lot of work for that.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
He also found this trick. Combined with the menu tech, it was not enough to save a framerule in Zipless, but it was just enough to make the slower lag reduction egg shot reach the same framerule. So it helped save 3 lag frames 😎
I think the reason why this simultaneous imputs trick has not been discovered is no one thinks there are a further improvement in cursor movements or not a few players tend to uncheck simultaneous imputs. People tend to think that (direction key), (blank frame), (direction key), (blank frame), ... is the optimal way of moving a cursor.
In other games like SMW or Link to the Past, similar simultaneous imputs trick is well known, but it is not cursor movements but movements of the player. In that sense, I think it is a very significant discovery.
We need to try simultaneous imputs in cursor movements in other games from now on.
And I am happy to hear a tas of this game is being improved nowadays. This was the very game when I first saw a tas.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
So here's the thing. Go into the menu, press updown, what happens? The cursor moves up once. The tech only works when you hold up and add down on the second frame. I only noticed it because I was doing some reverse engineering. It's a quirk in how the delayed autorepeat was implemented.
As for actual gameplay, we know about the famous floating Metal Blades and the ladder zip thing. Simultaneous L+R ordinarily just makes Mega Man go left, although Leaf Shield reads it as a right press, so that's kind of cool.
Okay, so here's my current update. I actually have to do a lot of backtracking and I'm playing parts over and over again. I use both text editing, manual gameplay (faster on familiar parts) and TASEditor for fine tuning. Still quite a time consuming project but I want to polish this just a bit further on.
Flashman:
- No frames saved
- Stylistic changes
Heatman:
- No frames saved
- Stylistic changes and different boss fight
Third Item 1 manipulation route also started at this stage. I usually had to go back and see if I can something. This also meant that I had to play s lot of parts again
Airman:
- 10 frames saved (frame rule + 2 penalty frames)
- Some small gameplay changes also included
Menu exploit gave me another possibility to perform delay scroll earlier. This took a long time to optimize because of Item 1 and their lovely values (Airman gate zip, Crashman beginning, Quickman left zip) I also had to aim for a correct subpixel position to make final screen not to have longer jumps from those red devils.
Crashman
- 8 frames saved (frame rule)
- Small stylistic changes
- New boss fight method
- Delay down scroll faster
Menu exploit doesn't yield good results before death and it causes delay trick at the ladders to fail. Frame parity and too low/negative numbers which is a good indicator that I fail at something. Delay down scroll is 2-frames faster due to different X position and I used Item 2 as a fart shot to avoid an overflow (this doesn't work at the ladders). This fart shot also moves third Item 1 value into this "000 | . | . " and it's my main source of issues right now but I will tell that in Quickman section. New boss fight allows to enter Quickman stage offscreen (actually an old method) but it got optimized in various ways to be useable
Quickman
- 16 frames saved (frame rule * 2)
- Stylistic changes
I finally got pieces together to perform left-kind-of-zip optimally. I couldn't find a proper value because I was stuck inside a wall during Crashman's fight. I found this by going back to the Airman and I used two Item 1s differently so first value got changed twice. I had to make sure it wasn't too much of off so I could perform gate zip normally as well. After that I found a frame at Crash fight (second hit) to roll first value to "064 . | . |". This is needed to save 2+ frames. After this I had extremely hard time to manipulate values for final zip and for Metalman. I had to use extra shots to get the zip done in time, but I lost my ability to optimize values for Metalman and now it fails hard. This is mainly because of that fart shot at Crash. RNG seed is horrible and its speed is faster compared to the second Item 1. This means that jumping on it is impossible during zip setups.
I've had some "free time" and I got things to roll so here's my current progress so far. I might share a *.fm2/*.fm3 file with markdowns or a movie with subtitles at some point.
F = 0 (0)
H = 0 (0)
A = 10 (10)
C = 8 (18)
Q = 16 (34)
M = 0 (34)
B = 0 (34)
W = 0 (34)
W1 = 0 (34)
Total: 34 frames ahead
Dr. Wily 1 = Finished at $1C 80 (16*5)
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
I made an interesting discovery regarding ladder physics. No new tech, but the thing where you snap up to 8 pixels and get turned around is the result of some very deliberate instructions. So this behavior is not a glitch. Presumably this applies to the original Mega Man as well.
Here is a commented disassembly of the code in question.
This is the most optimal route I've made so far. This version took a lot of time to finish. This relies on current $1C (frame rule) position and how I should live with it. I call this (W1 + Item 1 and W2/W3 big refill timing abuse version). I forgot to mention that if I choose not to use one extra Item 1 at W1, my frame rule position is pretty bad and I'm going to lose a lot of time. Even picking a refill up from having higher amount of energy won't save you.
F = 0 (0 frames ahead) - Stylistic changes
H = 0 (0 frames ahead) - Stylistic changes
A = 10 (10 frames ahead) - Menu exploit, subpixel tweaks to avoid getting hit and earlier DelayRightScroll
C = 8 (18 frames ahead) - New boss fight
Q = 16 (34 frames ahead) - Crash boss glitch allows partially skip a first screen
M = 0 (34 framed ahead) - Stylistic changes
B = 39 (73 frames ahead) - Used Item 2 at the beginning, abuse to have 1 energy for spike zips and DelayDownScroll setup
W = 13 (86 frames ahead) - Switch immediately to H and perform DelayUpScroll (In the past this was proven impossible for many years and I went back to investigate it at random)
W1 = 24 (110 frames ahead) - $1C was nice, thanks to earlier stages
W2 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Big refill "not doing a full charge" for $1C optimizations
W3 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Big refill "not doing a full charge" (same $1C but extra Item 1 = no idea where to use it)
W4 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Menu exploit didn't help
W5 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Menu exploit didn't help
W6 = 1 frame saved (111 frames ahead) - Menu exploit galore
Total saving: 111 frames
Note: I still have an extra Item 1. It should be used starting from W3 stage. W3 is problematic cause it can save around 10 frames, I need a lot more to beat a 16 frame rule. Two Item 1s can do that but that saves 16 frames and using Item 1 at Alien fight saves 27 frames alone. At W4 there's no room to use it and at final Item 1 screen it only gives a ton of lag where I tried to gain some subpixels. It cannot be used before W3 because I'm otherwise getting extended charging duration. It's extremely important not to do full charges if you need to bypass some unnecessary waiting and where $1C is getting in the way. At W2 I charged from 12 to 14 and used 3x Item1s after that. At W3 I charged from 11 to 14 as well.
That run would be about a 27:05 if timed comparably to my 27:17.
As an aside, I think my route would be faster in that game. If I ever take up PlayStation TASing I might just try it!
i.e., my run is 12 seconds slower than RCW. However, I recently realized that RCW does not have underwater lag, which is a crucial difference! Bubbleman's health bar still has that "stuttering and inconsistent tempo," which is a little weird. But the actual movement of Mega Man and the enemies is full speed.
You can watch Bubble or Wily 3 side by side to see paosidufygth get way further ahead during sections of identical movement.
I lose 986 frames due to underwater lag, or about 16.4 seconds. Now it seems as though my run is 4 seconds faster (RCW would be at 27:21 if timed comparably). Even accounting for framerate differences (which would put RCW a second or two closer to me), a run with vertical zips and instant switching should not be this close to a true zipless run on the NES.
I really do think this is from the Heat fight. If anyone ever wants to improve Rockman 2 on PlayStation, seriously do consider my route!
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
I've been playing around with "rapid respawns." I actually hate the Blocky glitch. It just looks like invincibility cheats to me. I may have found my first time-entertainment tradeoff.
Link to videoLink to videoLink to video
This clip abuses rapid respawns but is mainly focused on testing an idea from the Wily Wars submission thread.
Link to video
This is a preview of the new energy route for zipless.
Link to video
Here's what I've been up to in the A button challenge.
Link to video
And a bonus clip that shows in real time where the game checks for collisions with the level geometry.
Link to video
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
Shinryuu and I have been going crazy on the Boobeam fight. I found a new fight that saves 43 frames (applicable to any% and zipless), and we've been hammering out all kinds of optimizations to it. Leaf Shield is involved. I ended up with this insane frame tie in the zipless version. This idea dump vid is just the beginning.
Link to video
Seriously, I have a version where I switch to W here just to waste a shield, and that's a frame tie with the alternative fight where I don't pull that absolutely baffling move.
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
Some recent findings:
A better strat for the Item 2 ride in zipless Crash
Link to video
The closest we will ever come to skipping the refights. Except maybe this.
Link to video
Zipless version of the Leaf Shield Boobeam fight
Link to video
A new glitch in Rockman Exile that saves a few frames. It requires a Pipi in the same room as a platform-type sprite, which only occurs at that one screen in Airman's stage in vanilla rm2.
Link to video
I tried to use the Atomic Fire underflow glitch to get through the drills and do the knockback glitch on the crusher. It's pretty slow :/
Link to video
Hello everyone,
It's been years since I firstly discovered a bug in the boobeam trap boss room. As I never heard about it, I wanted to share this here so you can tell me if it's already known or not.
Note: I was casually playing through an emulated version of the game. Not sure but I think it was on the french NES rom available, maybe it's important to know as the bug could be specific to this version.
The bug is quite simple:once I entered the boss room in Wily 4 I pushed start (spammed the button to get this as soon as possible actually) to switch weapons as I didn't enter with the one I needed. And once back from the pause menu, the breakable wall had disapeared!
As I never saw such bug anywhere else through any Mega Man TAS I wonder if it's known and how it happened. As some sprites tend to flicker sometimes, maybe pausing the game on an precise frame got rid of them?
I hope this can help to gain some more time through a TAS as getting rid of those walls this easy may do, and maybe not only in that single room.
And I really wanna see if someone can understand how to make this work (if it's not already done by the way).
I hope this description is clear enough and that my writing is good too (English isn't my native language). If needed, do not hesitate to ask me for more details ;)
Thanking you for your attention and further feedback, I wish you a nice day!
lulu
Senior staff edit: Please do not mention sites that host commercial ROMs. Thank you. ~fsvgm777
Joined: 3/15/2018
Posts: 228
Location: United States
This isn't as far fetched as you might think. I have encountered two similar glitches in the past.
1. Zombie AnkoLink to video
This is an interesting bug where certain shrimps are assigned an incorrect "special pause type" in the data tables, which allows you to despawn an "item" sprite (sprites which are configured to permanently unload once destroyed) depending on the shrimp's action state. Crash Bomb walls are item sprites, but unfortunately, this glitch can only affect this one specific Anko. I didn't see any other sprites with bad special pause types when I first discovered this, but I can double check.
2. Practice Hack Jank
Kuumba made a cool practice hack for the RTA community, it's really good. One of the features he implemented was a pause exit, but he did it by jumping straight to the menu code. This lead to a stack overflow bug where eventually return addressees would start overwriting important gameplay data...the first of which was always the solid sprite data, as used by crash walls. He fixed it in the latest version.
I will update this post if I can find any clips of it.
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My hypothesis is that you were playing with some janky translation patch that caused issues similar to the practice hack.
He also found this trick. Combined with the menu tech, it was not enough to save a framerule in Zipless, but it was just enough to make the slower lag reduction egg shot reach the same framerule. So it helped save 3 lag frames 😎
