http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGv43pmLzoI
This is a tweak in action. Of course, the movement path to reach the Hall of Fame is very different to that of Shaymin, but the basic premise is the same.
Joined: 9/2/2008
Posts: 289
Location: United Kingdom
Wait...You can now use the Explorer kit on an emulator? Nice! I'll look forward to the run!
Did a test on Desmume and it works.
The real DS will have an error message when using the kit out of bounds, so a DS emulator will have the same result.
I got a movie file of the Jubilife tweak. I'll make a dirty encode of it since most of the ones on Youtube are off screen.
Edit:
Download link
http://www.filefront.com/17300859/Jubilifetweak.avi
Currently near Snowpoint City and the 7th gym. Some more thoughts:
- Due to this test run being mostly unplanned, I ran into some HM slave trouble, compounded by the fact that manipulating for a particular Pokemon is difficult due to the RNG step thing.
- I got Fire Blast and Focus Blast from the Veilstone Department Store.
- You cannot deathwarp via poison outside battle. The game will leave you at 1HP. I learned the hard way, after setting it up through the Fantina battle trying to deathwarp out of the Hearthome gym.
- Otherwise, nothing else of interest, besides the constant usage of effective though unprofessional-appearing methods to stealth by trainers, and the fact that the dumbed-down AI makes it so much easier to survive. If this game used RSE's AI, I would be stuck at the first gym right now.
- That being said, not all areas have such NPCs, and you will have to suffer the random encounter or use Repel. I am currently looking for a Poketch app that uses randomization in any way, shape, or form (hint, coin flip app). That, I presume, is the ticket to manipulate the field easily.
Unfortunately, the Coin Flip Pokétch App is based on the internal Mersenne Twister RNG (the IRNG), not the linear congruential RNG used for most of the game (such as wild encounters); so doing that wouldn't help manipulate away encounters at all.
The standard method used by Pokémon players when manipulating the RNG in realtime is to use the Journal; when it opens on a page that talks about the capture or defeat of a Pokémon by species name ("Caught a female BIDOOF" and variations), it increases the RNG by 2. This is relatively slow; faster than a battle, but probably slower than just waiting for NPC movements. It could be useful where there aren't NPCs around, but Repels are likely to be faster overall.
I would also maintain that Repels will be a faster alternative. FRLG has a similar issue where wild encounters seem impossible to manipulate away. It might be possible to change the number of steps between encounters.
Probably, it's going to be like that. There's no concrete proof that a glitched TAS can be done yet, only a probability of a 15-minute tweak to the end of the game. Since there's no .dsm/video proof that it's possible, nothing can be planned upon it yet and, thus, should be completely ignored.
Still, I'd really like to see the tweaking run, if it's confirmed doable. Pokémon TASes shine most for their glitch abuse. Without it, I think entertainment goes down significantly as it seems that there won't be much interesting luck manipulation as there was on Sapphire.
Anyway, glad that you're working on this game, FractalFusion. I'm amazed at the downhill RNGs took, going from RBY's insane hardware register entropy to a crappy LCG.
Questions:
Have you found any relevant memory addresses yet? I get the feeling a deeper look at the battle RNGs could be useful. For obvious reasons, only the pseudo-randomality behind encounter/IV/ability generation is well known.
Is the seed for encounter generation affected by the battle RNG or the two are completely separated? If the former is true, it should be possible to manipulate encounters away by letting the RNG change by waiting more frames during the last battle faced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8zCDZKBP4
This is the last 15 minutes or so of a TAS which uses tweaking to glitch to the end. I ripped it from nicovideo after learning about it from http://saisokugame.blog75.fc2.com/ . There are a lot of TASes there, some which come from this site.
Anyway, I'll summarize what happened.
After getting the bike in Eterna City, this TASer went back to Jubilife, set teleport point by PC, then tweaked into the void to go to Mystery Zone, where he caught a L55 Rhydon. After teleporting out, he tweaked again to go to Celestic Town cave to get Surf. Then teleport again, but this time go without tweaking to Hearthome City, beat Fantina to activate Surf, then leave, teleport, and tweak again, this time to Pokemon League. He then beats rival, enters, uses Rhydon to do the surf glitch, then glitches to the end. (Surf glitch is J version only)
I don't think others would be interested in seeing the first two parts of the run, so I'll just list notable things:
-This TASer uses Piplup, catches Bidoof early, and Abra a bit later.
-He gets Quick Claw in one of the houses in Jubilife. I can't believe I missed that.
-He sets Journal to Select, to manipulate away random encounters.
-Against Rival 1: Uses two crit Pound on Starly, three crit Pound on Turtwig.
-Against Roark: Geodude and Onix fall to crit Bubble, against Cranidos, Piplup uses Bubble (noncrit), Cranidos uses Leer, Cranidos uses Headbutt, Piplup uses crit Bubble (Torrent activate).
-Against Galactic Double: Lucas's Chimchar uses Ember on Wurmple and Piplup uses crit Bubble on Zubat.
-Gets TM88 (Pluck) at Floarama Town
-Against Mars: Starts out with Potion. Then Bubble and crit Pluck on Zubat. Three crit Pluck on Purugly while it uses Faint Attack.
-Piplup evolves and learns Metal Claw
-Against Youta & Kanako (Eterna Forest):
Prinplup's Metal Claw and Chansey's Tackle take out Wurmple
Pachirisu used Bide here, Metal Claw takes out Beautifly,
Tackle and Metal Claw take out Pachirisu while biding
Pluck on Cascoon
-Against Yoriko and Akifumi (Eterna Forest): Pluck on one Abra, Tackle on other.
-Against Galactic Double: Metal Claw Wurmple, Zubat kills Bidoof with Bite,
Pluck Cascoon, Zubat eats Abra,
crit Pound Zubat, Metal Claw Glameow
-Against Jupiter: Crit Pluck Zubat, noncrit/crit Metal Claw on Skuntank
and the rest is in the summary above. You don't need to know what happens to Fantina and Rival because Rhydon kills them all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8zCDZKBP4
This is the last 15 minutes or so of a TAS which uses tweaking to glitch to the end. I ripped it from nicovideo after learning about it from http://saisokugame.blog75.fc2.com/ . There are a lot of TASes there, some which come from this site.
Anyway, I'll summarize what happened.
After getting the bike in Eterna City, this TASer went back to Jubilife, set teleport point by PC, then tweaked into the void to go to Mystery Zone, where he caught a L55 Rhydon. After teleporting out, he tweaked again to go to Celestic Town cave to get Surf. Then teleport again, but this time go without tweaking to Hearthome City, beat Fantina to activate Surf, then leave, teleport, and tweak again, this time to Pokemon League. He then beats rival, enters, uses Rhydon to do the surf glitch, then glitches to the end. (Surf glitch is J version only)
I don't think others would be interested in seeing the first two parts of the run, so I'll just list notable things:
-This TASer uses Piplup, catches Bidoof early, and Abra a bit later.
-He gets Quick Claw in one of the houses in Jubilife. I can't believe I missed that.
-He sets Journal to Select, to manipulate away random encounters.
-Against Rival 1: Uses two crit Pound on Starly, three crit Pound on Turtwig.
-Against Roark: Geodude and Onix fall to crit Bubble, against Cranidos, Piplup uses Bubble (noncrit), Cranidos uses Leer, Cranidos uses Headbutt, Piplup uses crit Bubble (Torrent activate).
-Against Galactic Double: Lucas's Chimchar uses Ember on Wurmple and Piplup uses crit Bubble on Zubat.
-Gets TM88 (Pluck) at Floarama Town
-Against Mars: Starts out with Potion. Then Bubble and crit Pluck on Zubat. Three crit Pluck on Purugly while it uses Faint Attack.
-Piplup evolves and learns Metal Claw
-Against Youta & Kanako (Eterna Forest):
Prinplup's Metal Claw and Chansey's Tackle take out Wurmple
Pachirisu used Bide here, Metal Claw takes out Beautifly,
Tackle and Metal Claw take out Pachirisu while biding
Pluck on Cascoon
-Against Yoriko and Akifumi (Eterna Forest): Pluck on one Abra, Tackle on other.
-Against Galactic Double: Metal Claw Wurmple, Zubat kills Bidoof with Bite,
Pluck Cascoon, Zubat eats Abra,
crit Pound Zubat, Metal Claw Glameow
-Against Jupiter: Crit Pluck Zubat, noncrit/crit Metal Claw on Skuntank
and the rest is in the summary above. You don't need to know what happens to Fantina and Rival because Rhydon kills them all.
Post the first two parts of this run...please?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Here are all the parts, with annotations telling you the moves, and other interesting stuff.
First part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__DAQYE_uDg
Second part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsfYpEzzfHg
Third part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8zCDZKBP4
I do not know about tweaking and the void to comment on what is going on there.
Also, I noticed some stuff which I believe are mistakes:
- Going to the Windmill first before saving the old man with the honey.
- In the Windmill, fighting the grunt instead of walking around him. He looks around randomly.
- Going to Hearthome after tweaking a couple times, the unnecessary random encounter.
I do not know about tweaking and the void to comment on what is going on there.
This should explain a bit in detail of the Tweaking Glitch. This is being quoted from Keyblade999's FAQ on glitches in 4th Generation so I take no credit for this nor do I claim this as my doing.
"Maps in Diamond and Pearl are broken up into 32-step by 32-step squares that
are visible at any one time, with nine of these squares loaded at any given
time. When a player crosses over the game's various "load lines", located
halfway across these 32x32 squares, the next area is loaded to memory, while
the previous is unloaded. Through this, the overworld becomes a seamless area.
Using the bicycle in fourth gear, however, can cause the player to move too
fast for the game to load the areas properly, especially if he or she
changes direction while doing so to cross over the two load lines in the
center of a square nearly simultaneously. Doing so oversaturates the DS's
RAM, causing varying effects such as a black area, a white area, or even, at
times, a completely different section to load, or often simply freezing the
game.
The distortion caused by tweaking can be solved easily by crossing a load
line away from the distortion, as when the section is loaded again, it will
be normal. It can also be solved by looking at a different menu screen, then
returning to the overworld.
By tweaking in a specific manner in an area that has buildings that the
player can enter, as well as forcing the game to load the section in such a
way that the player can walk into the dark area, buildings can be entered
through their currently invisible and not properly loaded walls. By
reloading the map while the player is inside of the building, behind the
warp to the actual inside of the building, and walking south, the player can
end up on the inside of the building, but in the void area around the
normally accessible portion, somewhat like the Surf glitch. Like the Surf
glitch, a way can be found through the interconnecting area of this void to
Newmoon Island and the Flower Paradise, where Darkrai and Shaymin reside.
Arceus is yet to be found with this glitch. The same risks associated with
the Surf glitch, such as locking oneself in the Mystery Zone, are found here.
It may also cause the game to become permanently frozen, requiring a new
game to be started."
FractalFusion wrote:
Also, I noticed some stuff which I believe are mistakes:
- Going to the Windmill first before saving the old man with the honey.
- In the Windmill, fighting the grunt instead of walking around him. He looks around randomly.
- Going to Hearthome after tweaking a couple times, the unnecessary random encounter.
He actually was doing that right because those Galactic grunts will block the entry unless you deal with the grunt at the Valley Windworks. Unless you know of a way around that.
I'm more interested in what happens in the Void. Why he goes to some place, saves, then ends up near the Pokemon League, for example. I've heard that part of the Void is random from game to game. Unfortunately, no one seems to know how it works.
GoddessMaria15 wrote:
He actually was doing that right because those Galactic grunts will block the entry unless you deal with the grunt at the Valley Windworks. Unless you know of a way around that.
I see. What I meant was that, even though the grunts block the way to the old man, they will disappear if you talk to the girl near the bridge. So, talk to the girl and then go to the old man.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
I think the way it works is that if you move the right number of steps and then save and reload, the map then gets loaded properly and you can continue from that area.
I'm more interested in what happens in the Void. Why he goes to some place, saves, then ends up near the Pokemon League, for example. I've heard that part of the Void is random from game to game. Unfortunately, no one seems to know how it works.
GoddessMaria15 wrote:
He actually was doing that right because those Galactic grunts will block the entry unless you deal with the grunt at the Valley Windworks. Unless you know of a way around that.
I see. What I meant was that, even though the grunts block the way to the old man, they will disappear if you talk to the girl near the bridge. So, talk to the girl and then go to the old man.
Ah! I see what you mean now after trying it with Pearl, so I must apologize for that mistake. Also, I can try to read up more on it as well as even try experimenting with it.
Halloforigin.com has a ton of info on how the Tweaking/Void glitches work.
The Void doesn't vary from game to game, only on what flags are currently set in the current save file.
Back here, for some more RNG analyzing.
- As you know, the same formula is for advancing the RNG:
value <- value*[0x41C64E6D] + [0x6073]
- The battle system hasn't changed much. This time, the RNG cycles once every two frames, rather than twice a frame. This makes expected delays twice as long. If the RNG cycles more than once on a frame, it is determining something. A series of four calls (each two frames apart) determines the following:
1:
........
...x.... x=0 critical hit
2:
........
...y.... y damage variation 0=max
3:
........
4:
........
aaaa.... aaaa accuracy
This is done right after the move is selected.
- Something new: the game appears to set initial seeds very often throughout the run, mostly right before battle.
Any time the game sets an initial seed, it is as follows:
xxyy00zz+dddddddd
xx=month*day+minute+second mod 256
yy=hour
zz=last two digits of year
dddddddd=framecount=value at address 21c4834
And that's it! Pretty simple.
Edit: It was on smogon.com too: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180
- I initially had trouble trying to find the starter's Pokemon data in RAM, as the developers encrypted the values well. Of course, I had the idea of dumping RAM after the starter data was determined, then going back, poking another value for the RNG, and then dumping in the same spot again. Then I compare the two files with a difference reporter. Very simple; I wish I had thought of that sooner.
Anyway, the PID for the starter Pokemon is the first two RNG values thrown after selecting the starter. PID is:
yyyyxxxx, first value (top half) xxxx, second value (top half) yyyy
That's all for now, but I plan to find some more stuff.
OK, here's some more stuff I've found so far:
- The PID of the starter Pokemon is generated by the first two RNG calls, and the IVs by the next two RNG calls.
- The PID of wild Pokemon appears to be generated on a frame with the fourth and third last values for PID and second last and last values for IVs, in the same manner as above. Not much else is known.
- For the Pokemon catch tutorial, Dawn/Lucas Pokemon has PID determined on a frame by first two calls and IVs by last two calls. The wild Pokemon has PID determined on the next frame by first two calls and IVs by last two calls as well. Though it doesn't look like I can get a knockout this time.
- In battle, the Quick Claw appears to use the same mechanic as in Ruby/Sapphire; that is, it is determined before the round of attacks. However, what determines it and how is still unknown.
- The game keeps track of two RNG sequences, both using the RNG formula above.
-- The first one is the "overworld RNG", which is initially seeded right after the "red Gyarados screen" with the clock and appears not to be modified under any other circumstances. It determines everything related to natures and IVs.
-- The second one is the "battle RNG". Before every battle, the overworld RNG is placed aside and the RNG is seeded with the clock (as in the post above). Once the battle is finished, the overworld RNG is placed back as the RNG.
As an addendum, I do see reports in many places regarding mechanics and probability, including Bulbapedia, that contradict some stuff that I've found in Ruby/Sapphire and in Diamond. I do not know if it refers to the latest generation (possible), or is done on a different ROM, or is just plain anecdotal evidence that has been passed along the years. That is why sites that document exact information must have their data cross-checked frequently. At least it isn't as bad as the Pokerus "information" situation.
I've started another test run. This time, I cleverly manipulated Chimchar so that its stats are extremely high, and its Hidden Power is Fighting 70!
Overworld RNG seed: 380011b7 (ex. 2029-01-01 00:01:54, framecount 0x119a). So the start time is 2029-01-01 00:00:38.
Cycle after initial seed: 92. This number is a guesstimate since the number of calls varies (it is controlled by random looking NPCs in the area), but it was around 82 optimally. I had to do a bit of waiting to get to 92.
Chimchar's Nature: 4 (Atk+ Spdef-). Sorry for referring to natures as numbers but that's the only way I think of them.
Chimchar's IVs:
HP IV - 30
Atk IV - 31
Def IV - 26
Spd IV - 30
Spatk IV - 30
Spdef IV - 30
Chimchar's Hidden Power: It is Fighting 70. Go calculate it.
Oh yeah, I obviously used a simulator to find it. Because I am not a bot.
I chose Fighting 70 because, not only does it work early on, but later when Chimchar evolves, it will become Monferno which is Fire/Fighting, so it will gain STAB on it.
Anyway, against the first trainer with a Starly, it is possible to do a crit and a non-crit with Scratch. Better than two crits.
Against the second trainer with two Bidoof, the first one can be OHKOed with a crit Scratch. I have not tested completely but it might require a max crit. Which I fortunately got in the test run. The second one goes down with crit Ember or crit Scratch.
Against the third trainer with Shinx, it goes down with crit Ember.
Against both Abra in the trainer school, they go down with crit Ember or crit Scratch. This is to get Hidden Power.
Note that due to high speed IV, Chimchar outspeeds all of them.
I get Quick Claw from one of the houses.
Against the rival, Starly goes down with crit Ember or crit Hidden Power. Piplup on the other hand, survived a crit Hidden Power at 99% damage variation. Perhaps (and I didn't test), it might just be possible to OHKO it with a max crit.
Against Roark, crit Hidden Power OHKOs all of them. This is the first battle which Quick Claw mattered. I discovered that Quick Claw appears to be determined much earlier than I thought, near the beginning of the previous turn! To get Quick Claw to work against, say, Onix, you need to manipulate at the point where you select an attack against Geodude. That's still all I know about Quick Claw.
Other stuff:
- I chose the boy for now. Assuming the change to girl has the nothing different other than boy -> girl and Dawn -> Lucas, using the boy is faster.
- Fast text speed appears to be 1 frame faster at the beginning of some dialogs than scrolling mid speed text fast.
And that's it for now. The Poketch entertainment potential is huge but I'll put that aside for now since it's only a test run.
I would have thought going for HP Water/Grass would be a better choice, given the 4x effectiveness on 2 of Roark's mons and still doing the same damage to Cranidos, and gives him extra coverage. HP Grass would net you a guaranteed OHKO on that Piplup too.
I have thought about Hidden Power for a while. HP Grass is only useful for those 4 Pokemon (Piplup, Geodude, Onix, Cranidos) and is pretty much useless afterward. HP Water may or may not be useful.
HP Water is probably more fitting on Piplup because of STAB and Torrent, so that may be a possibility.
I had also considered catching Abra and using a Hidden Power on it. HP Water, or HP Psychic, or something else? There are a few issues in any case.
Although I had not planned it months ago, I might consider looking at the glitched route. This information will be useful anyway.
