Topic by Johannes

Posted: 1/12/2009 9:48 PM
(Edited: 1/12/2009 9:54 PM)

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (297)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

nineko wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what is the NES game with a bitrate of 9.8144029716529?

Metal Storm. It has a multi-layer parallax background and it was encoded with DIVX, which means that there was little to none chances for motion encoding. http://tasvideos.org/MovieStatistics.html#LowestAviCompressionRatio http://tasvideos.org/MovieStatistics.html#HighestAviCompressionRatio

Posted: 1/12/2009 9:48 PM

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Pre-emptive guess, it's probably Battletoads. That game has a lot of parallax scrolling and such that would ramp up the bitrate quite a bit. edit: beaten by 5 seconds, and my guess wasn't even in the top 10.

I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.

Posted: 1/12/2009 10:54 PM

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nineko

Banned User

Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy

Thanks.

Gone.

Posted: 1/13/2009 2:48 PM
(Edited: 1/13/2009 11:54 PM)

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Yes, the N64 encoders are too modest. The encode of the 5:33 run compared to lossless:

Too much grain is introduced in N64 encodes, whereas NES encodes typically look transparent.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/13/2009 4:28 PM

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ShinyDoofy

Former player

Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716

Great to see you actually compared the same frames! /edit: to clafiry what I was intending to say, a quote: <Bisqwit> Shiny: huh? <Bisqwit> Shiny: I don't get what you're trying to imply with your post <ShinyDoofy> Bisqwit, open up one of the images and then enter the url of the other one <ShinyDoofy> they are not the same frames, peach is further away in one of them <ShinyDoofy> thus colors, shadows etc have changed and imho make the comparison invalid <ShinyDoofy> i know it's a moo point, but still for me it's like saying x=x+1/512 <ShinyDoofy> besides: why try to make a point with a new-obsolete run/encode?

Posted: 1/13/2009 11:18 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Player (206)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Ah, I was about to say that the letter looked faded in a bit more in the bottom picture. Although the "Peach" is harder to read in that one...

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 1/13/2009 11:55 PM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Fixed

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 4:45 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

What settings did you use to encode the lossless frame?

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:35 PM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Raiscan wrote:

What settings did you use to encode the lossless frame?

1280x960 BMP lanczos downscaled to 320x240. N64 encodes can look as good as that with higher bitrates.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:39 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

No, they can't. Take the same frame in x264 lossless and see how different it looks.

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:41 PM
(Edited: 1/14/2009 5:46 PM)

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Raiscan wrote:

No, they can't. Take the same frame in x264 lossless and see how different it looks.

Lossless H.264 is a lossless format, and thus bit for bit identical to the original.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:42 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

Prove me wrong with a picture then.

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:47 PM
(Edited: 1/14/2009 5:53 PM)

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

here it is. The picture is a little sharper, but I used a sharper lanczos algorithm for it. Trying the sharper one now.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:51 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

Gah. While that particular frame *partially* shows what I'm trying to get you to see, it doesn't seem to have shown up very well. Something with red and green will show up better, for example Mario on a green hill with blue sky in the background. Compare that frame with the lossless lanczos bmp you made. Pay extra close attention to the colours. Not very lossless if the colours have changed, is it? :) Edit: Good places to look are her hair gradient, her earring and the "Peach" text. It's washed out already!

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 5:55 PM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Raiscan wrote:

Gah. While that particular frame *partially* shows what I'm trying to get you to see, it doesn't seem to have shown up very well. Something with red and green will show up better, for example Mario on a green hill with blue sky in the background. Compare that frame with the lossless lanczos bmp you made. Pay extra close attention to the colours. Not very lossless if the colours have changed, is it? :)

Yeah, the RGB to YV12 colorspace conversion (x264 always uses YV12) causes a slight color loss. Forgot about that.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 6:10 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

Johannes wrote:

Yeah, the RGB to YV12 colorspace conversion (x264 always uses YV12) causes a slight color loss. Forgot about that.

Exactly. The important point I'm trying to get across here is that on N64 games with such a vast diversity of vibrant colours, the quality can be significantly diminished before you even decide to start compressing it lossily. The colourspace change can be reversed to some extent at the decoder level, though you can see the "Peach" text is still faded...

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 6:23 PM

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

I found out the color outwashing only occours if you convert RGB to YV12. If you record your mupen AVI as YV12 (lossless H.264) and compress with x264, the colors won't be washed out. 1280x960 lossless H.264 recording from mupen lanczos downscaled to 320x240 and rendered as qp=0 x264, displayed without colorspace altering upon playback:

So the color outwashing is a cause of a too low bitrate after all.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 7:11 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

I'm trying to make sense of how that is working. It shouldn't be working, because mupen is sending the raw frames as RGB32 (or RGB24) to the x264 codec, so it should be changing colourspace anyway. How you have managed to not lose colour using x264 lossless is beyond me, since the conversion is happening. I'll have a look and see what's going on in your example. Edit: Thanks to bkDJ, I've found the reason:

(19:55:18) (bkDJ) virtual dub makes everything rgb32
(19:55:26) (bkDJ) everything

So in actual fact it's doing the exact thing MPC is doing in my picture. Nice try though :)

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 8:27 PM
(Edited: 1/14/2009 8:29 PM)

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Johannes

Former player

Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 425

Raiscan wrote:

I'm trying to make sense of how that is working. It shouldn't be working, because mupen is sending the raw frames as RGB32 (or RGB24) to the x264 codec, so it should be changing colourspace anyway. How you have managed to not lose colour using x264 lossless is beyond me, since the conversion is happening. I'll have a look and see what's going on in your example. Edit: Thanks to bkDJ, I've found the reason:
(19:55:18) (bkDJ) virtual dub makes everything rgb32
(19:55:26) (bkDJ) everything
So in actual fact it's doing the exact thing MPC is doing in my picture. Nice try though :)

I didn't encode 1.avi with virtualdub. I used mencoder. Also, bkDJ's statement is not true; Navigate to Video > Color Depth and you can choose which colorspace to use.

SM64.org

Posted: 1/14/2009 8:28 PM

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Raiscan

Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom

but you're viewing it in virtualdub, which outputs any video as RGB32.

<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs

Posted: 1/14/2009 8:34 PM

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ShinyDoofy

Former player

Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716

Raiscan wrote:

Something with red and green will show up better, for example Mario on a green hill with blue sky in the background.

That's dependent on the video driver you're using. -vo xv for mplayer looks much better colorwise than -vo gl2 with such pure colors, still it tends to eat up a *lot* of CPU compared to gl2.

Posted: 1/14/2009 8:40 PM
(Edited: 1/14/2009 8:44 PM)

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