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Posted: 10/25/2009 2:54 AM
Post subject: Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I've got dibs on this game. Has anyone gotten this game to emulate reasonably well yet?
Posted: 6/5/2011 12:47 AM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Good news, since the Megaman 10 run got published I've convinced myself that TASing this game is now feasible. So far I've gotten the title screen to emulate properly, but I can't get beyond that yet until I get a video card. But, in the meanwhile, I want to draw some attention to my main concern with TASing this game. Unlike the GBA Fire Emblems, you cannot manipulate the game's random number generator through cursor movement. In fact, I'm not 100% sure but I believe the game's RNG is affected purely by the wii's game clock. Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon's (FE11) RNG is affected by the DS's game clock (thread), so it's not a stretch to believe FE10 has a similar RNG system in place. So, if this is the case, this would give me 2 options: 1- Make a run with as many, if not more battle saves than my speedrun (could number in the hundreds) 2- Make a single segment run with considerable time lost because of an inability to abuse the RNG 3- Make some balance between 1 and 2
Posted: 6/5/2011 3:17 AM
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Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (764)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
PSX TAS of 2013
Hi Vykan, long time no see. IMO, i think you need to wait some time, until memory watch is available for Dolphin, so we can study more and more the RNG behavior. In FE9, i can 100% say that the RNG can be manipulated just like in GBA FE.
Posted: 6/5/2011 4:45 AM
(Edited: 6/5/2011 9:55 AM)
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Acheron86
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Before you throw in the towel and wait for memory watching tools, I'd at least play around with the game some and see if you can't find any other ways to manipulate (changing equipped weapons, opening chests, rescues, etc). I can't remember this game too well as my copy was ruined shortly after I finished playing it, but there's surely some ways to advance the RNG that are more efficient than battle saves. It'll at least be worth experimenting if you haven't already. For the sake of sanity, I would probably not go into hundreds of battle saves unless each one is a significant time saver. I think it'd be an acceptable speed/entertainment tradeoff to lower your segment count to a couple dozen and use saves only when manipulating the RNG will make for an impressive view. That's also going to require reset re-recording, wouldn't it? Does Dolphin support that already? Edit: Never mind, battle saves, duh.
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Posted: 6/5/2011 8:13 AM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
Memory watch should be available under cheat search.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
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I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
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Posted: 6/5/2011 8:51 PM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
In FE9, i can 100% say that the RNG can be manipulated just like in GBA FE.
In that case I'll get started on Path of Radiance, and get back to Radiant Dawn later.
Memory watch should be available under cheat search.
I haven't the faintest clue how to use memory watch anyway, I kind of hope more technically competent users can help with that, similar to DarkKobold with his FE6 lua scripts. --- Now, there's another issue to consider before I start TASing my brains out. Should I be running on a cleared SRAM or on a file where the game's been beaten already? Normally the answer is obvious, but there are huge advantages to having beaten the game once. 1) Hard mode is unlocked, and the increase in difficulty is significant, especially in Radiant Dawn. 2) In Radiant Dawn, the map animations can be turned completely off, which saves an enormous amount of time. 3) (Not nearly as significant) you get Pelleas and Sephiran on a 2nd+ playthrough of FE10. I'm especially adamant about 2, personally I would find an FE10 run with map animations to be unbearable, and estimate it would easily be over 4 hours long. I'd rather TAS the game on a 2nd playthrough, even if it means I cannot submit here.
Posted: 6/5/2011 9:00 PM
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Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (764)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
PSX TAS of 2013
I agree with you on that, but you also need something to think about, and that is BEXP, im not sure, but i think BEXP is manipulated the same way you manipulate RNG, i also managed to change the RN by reading one of the base conversations. EDIT: Also, i would like to see a run through a chapter with RNG Manipulation, i've tried to do this multiple times, and it always end up desyncing.
Posted: 7/11/2013 4:52 AM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Good news is I finally got a gfx card and installed it. Bad news is my power supply can't seem to handle it and I might even have to upgrade other components as well, if not build a new PC from scratch. I'd be interested in knowing what specs people managed to run this game and Path of Radiance on since I recall on the Dolphin boards that people could run those games with relatively low-end PCs. Regardless, it might be another month or so before I can even emulate this game properly :/
Posted: 11/2/2013 5:34 PM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Finally managed to emulate this and Path of Radiance, close to 60 fps in most cases too. Unfortunately, after a couple quick tests I'm rather convinced the RNG is not affected by path drawing in this game. Nor does switching weapons, talking, shoving, trading, dropping items, rescuing, ending a character's turn (ie graying them out), or moving other characters around. Strangely enough, having Micaiah and Sothe converse did change the outcome. Perhaps because the game registered an increase in support value? Vigoring also changed the RNG. I can't really do a serious run yet without knowing the inner working of the RNG, which I'll leave to more capable hands than I. In the meanwhile, I'll try and whip up a dtm of 1-P and see if I can make a halfway decent encode.
Posted: 11/2/2013 5:38 PM
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Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (764)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
PSX TAS of 2013
Im pretty sure that in Path of Radiance you can change RNG with path drawing, i managed to get different outcome in Ike's level up by changing the path each frame.
Posted: 11/2/2013 7:14 PM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yeah, that was confirmed by me and Sam6555 when he streamed Path of Radiance prologue TASing. Well, looks like I've hit another roadblock: When TASing on dolphin my frame advance... Takes very long just to advance 1 frame and savestates take forever to load. It's so painful to work through that I can't even make a decent TAS of prologue, so all signs point to having to get a more powerful machine. I'm going to look towards getting a motherboard that supports an i5 or i7 processor, but that'll take a while since I'm strapped for cash.
Posted: 1/13/2017 8:48 PM
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ruadath
Active player (261)
Joined: 12/13/2016
Posts: 352
For what it's worth, I've cracked the RNG formula (initial seed + next RN) for both this game and Path of Radiance (and I guess FE12 as well but that's not relevant). I'll probably be looking to tackle one of these as my next project once Shadow Dragon is completed and am looking for input as to which game to do first, which difficulty/version, RTA/Segmented etc.
Posted: 10/29/2019 5:01 AM
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Ubercapitalist
Active player (295)
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 63
Location: USA
This game seems to run well. I experimented a bit and the RNG appears to only change depending on when the game is started. In prologue with 3 weakened enemies surrounding Edward, a 10% chance critical would activate no matter which enemy was attacked on that turn. It seems the best way to go is to work smart with whatever the RNG gives and adjust order of unit actions. Battle Save abuse could be used if there is a moment where it is very important to get good RNG, where the result outweighs the time spent (unlikely for speedrun).
"But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day" -2 Peter 3:8 NLT
Posted: 11/2/2019 2:35 AM
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Ubercapitalist
Active player (295)
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 63
Location: USA
Link to video I've gone through the first two maps. I manipulate the RNG by the order which units are moved. Something that also alters RNG is visiting a house, canceling the scene quickly or slowly will alter RNG. This is a new game, no bonus transfers from Path of Radiance, and no option to turn off battle animations. I've searched for real time speedruns and all I've found use NG+ or transfers. Is this run worth continuing?
"But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day" -2 Peter 3:8 NLT
Posted: 11/2/2019 2:43 AM
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InfamousKnight
He/Him
Joined: 9/12/2014
Posts: 540
Location: Waterford, MI
Yes, continue it. I would love to see it.
Posted: 11/2/2019 2:47 AM
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Rolanmen1
He/Him
Experienced player (764)
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 569
Location: Dominican Republic
PSX TAS of 2013
So, you cannot burn RNs by doing arrow movements like all GBA FEs?
Posted: 11/3/2019 2:02 AM
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someone1
Joined: 8/29/2019
Posts: 18
what are the rules on using saves from another game, or linking up to another game during a run?
Posted: 11/3/2019 11:11 AM
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Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (595)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1217
Location: Romania
Is it possible to pause the game during enemy's turn to manipulate RNG? Pressing Home button?
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Posted: 11/3/2019 11:16 AM
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JosJuice
She/They
Editor, Emulator Coder
Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 193
Location: Sweden
someone1 wrote:
what are the rules on using saves from another game
I would assume it's covered by the same rule as using a save from the same game (it doesn't mention that the save has to be from the same game, and the reasoning behind the rule makes sense in both cases):
However, there are certain games with unlockable modes, second quests, or other things of interest that can only be accessed if a save file (or an otherwise "dirty" SRAM) is present. If you really wish to submit a movie made on such a mode, you will need a verification movie made and provided alongside it. Any input file that starts from power-on (for example, a previously submitted movie for that game) and creates the exact circumstances for your submission to sync will generally do. Note that you don't have to optimize the verification movie: it only serves as a save or SRAM generator that makes it possible to claim the legitimacy of your effort. This submission is a good example. In any case, ensure a run of your unlocked mode provides meaningful content over a fresh game. For example, if the unlocked mode features all new bosses, but your run triggers the endgame sequence before meeting any of them, and this same glitch exists in a fresh game as well, then there is no benefit to unlocking this mode.
Posted: 11/18/2019 10:27 PM
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ruadath
Active player (261)
Joined: 12/13/2016
Posts: 352
There is no way to manipulate the RNG once in level, but setting the timer at the beginning of the run appropriately gives you a choice of 64 (or 128, can't remember) different seeds.
Posted: 12/6/2019 4:14 PM
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Vykan12
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Ubercapitalist wrote:
Link to video I've gone through the first two maps. I manipulate the RNG by the order which units are moved. Something that also alters RNG is visiting a house, canceling the scene quickly or slowly will alter RNG. This is a new game, no bonus transfers from Path of Radiance, and no option to turn off battle animations. I've searched for real time speedruns and all I've found use NG+ or transfers. Is this run worth continuing?
I watched your WIP, seems fine, except player phase is inconsistently skipped optimally, and not holding start when enemies attack to avoid the spinning yellow triangle pointer. Hope you keep it up, as I don't currently have a PC capable of TASing this game.
Posted: 12/14/2019 5:50 PM
Post subject: Game changer: RNG cycling
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Ubercapitalist
Active player (295)
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 63
Location: USA
Vykan12 wrote:
I watched your WIP, seems fine, except player phase is inconsistently skipped optimally, and not holding start when enemies attack to avoid the spinning yellow triangle pointer. Hope you keep it up, as I don't currently have a PC capable of TASing this game.
What do you mean by player phases inconsistently skipped? I know once I forgot to skip the experience meter fill. Thanks for the tip about holding start when enemy attack. I have gotten up to chapter 1-5 by playing real time with save states, testing different orders of attacks until getting a decent result for level ups. I then record video, and follow the steps of that video to make an optimized TAS. This method has decent results, but isn't practical for getting perfect (or close) level ups or getting low% criticals. there's just too few combinations of moves which take too long to highly optimize. I ran into an RNG desync using this method, and traced it to this: The RNG cycles whenever the attack cursor for a ranged attack unit highlights an enemy ~on a diagonal~. RNG can be incremented by going back and forth between the enemy select and weapon select screens (slow). If there are two or more enemies in attack range, jumping between a diagonal enemy and another enemy will cycle RNG (fast). The RNG value is the same for each of these cycles regardless of which unit is used or which diagonal enemy is highlighted. I am partway through 1-5, and have set up for a wrath/resolve Edward for next chapter. I am leaning toward just continuing with what I have, and using the above RNG cycle method from this point forward. I know I could win more battles with less stats with new RNG method. Thoughts?
"But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day" -2 Peter 3:8 NLT
Posted: 12/31/2019 12:52 AM
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deuxhero
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
I noticed you don't bother getting strength on Micaiah. Do you not forsee using heavier tomes with her?
Posted: 1/2/2020 1:42 AM
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Ubercapitalist
Active player (295)
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 63
Location: USA
deuxhero wrote:
I noticed you don't bother getting strength on Micaiah. Do you not forsee using heavier tomes with her?
She's now at 9 strength (max 10) at end of Part 1, before promotion. Here is Part 1: Link to video Vykan12's videos were loosely used as a guide.
"But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day" -2 Peter 3:8 NLT
Posted: 1/6/2020 1:16 AM
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deuxhero
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
OK, so it was just easier to strength elesewhere. Would getting the coin in the prison chapter and RNG manipulating to give a +3 might bonus when forging the supersword have been worth the speed loss in getting it and extra menus? It seems like it would have let Edward kill the boss next chapter without Nolan and that tiger at the end in one round at least.
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