Topic by Tompa

Posted: 2/11/2007 8:07 AM

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Tompa

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Editor, Expert player (2142)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

I was fooling around inside the Secret Seashell house, trying to get the lvl 2 sword early, but I found something else... A slighty faster movement speed. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3798/FasterMovement.vbm It is faster, right...? I haven't been arsed to check:). EDIT: This can be done in any underground where you walk from side to side.

Posted: 2/11/2007 8:49 AM

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Chef_Stef

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It's actually about the same speed (within about ~5 frames). But, you also have that period where you have to charge up the sword. So, it's not likely that it saves time. Okay, I took another look at the sword part at the beginning, and I pressed D/L/R. I also found that pressing just U/D will achieve the same effect. Another strange thing; Link's vertical position doesn't matter for picking up the sword; it works in all positions from the very top to the bottom right before the owl trigger. I did the same testing on a golden leaf, and nothing happened whatsoever. I even tested if it was the shield that triggered the glitch, but no. I'm starting to think that the sword glitch is a unique special case where the L/R glitches worked. On a side note, I'm probably just going to use a glitched bombarrow on the knight in a wall, and then shoot him with a regular arrow. I haven't yet figured out if I can shoot him without going down the stairs, but it won't matter much anyway because I have to pick up the leaf manually. Edit: I made a short movie showing all the glitches with bombs and arrows (separately), just for future reference. I think I covered everything there... http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3799/ArrowBombGlitching.vbm

Posted: 2/11/2007 9:05 AM

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Tompa

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Editor, Expert player (2142)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

L+R, slash sword, release R or L. You don't need to wait for the sword to start charging. Work the same way with U+D. If you walk longer paths in the underground, it might save a frame or two. It's funny to watch too ;D. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3800/GlitchingAround.vbm I give up with taking items with Link from distance, it seems impossible everywhere except at the sword, annoying... Yeah, I think you included all combinations there. Glitchy game:)

Posted: 2/11/2007 6:35 PM
(Edited: 2/16/2007 5:56 PM)

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Chef_Stef

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Joined: 5/23/2006
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Done with the castle and leaf collection... http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3810/Testrun4.vbm Changes: -Got the lvl 4 warp, S&Q -Didn't have to wait so long in the shop while stealing the bow (~10 frames) -Better manipulation for the "hole monster" with the first leaf (~30-45 frames) -Better use of the bombarrow for the "wall monster" (~10 frames) -Picked up the right pot instead of the left one (saved some diagonal movement) (~5 frames) -Saved an item switch (I think... it's hard to tell) (possibly ~80-90 frames) -S&Q warp after the last leaf (~50-100 frames) -Damage boost from one of those bomb-droppers (~30-40 frames) So, the total improvements add up to 2556 frames (51 seconds) saved so far. Only 49405 frames (815 seconds) left until I reach my goal! I'm going to be really happy, though, even if I only get 2 minutes under my published time. I want to point out now, though, that there's going to be a part where I lose some time; dungeon 3. In the published run, I get a piece of power at the beginning, which helps me move faster and kill the boss much faster. However, all this S&Q warping is resetting the PoP count. I don't think I will see another PoP for the rest of this TAS. As for not using S&Q warps until later... well, there's the dungeon 4 warp that would be lost (probably at least 15 seconds from having to walk back). Also, I think the pegasus boots do not get an increase in speed from the PoP, so it's not that big of a deal for dungeon 3. Besides, then I can use S&Q's in dungeon 3 to save even more time :D Come to think of it, maybe I won't lose any time in dungeon 3... we'll see ;) Edit: The frame count here is incorrect. The actual values are 1556 frames, 26 seconds ahead (see my first post on page 22).

Posted: 2/12/2007 12:00 AM

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Tompa

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Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

I couldn't find anything to point out. Just a thought... If you didn't S&Q after the last leaf, would you be able to get the PoP then? I don't know the numbers in my head, so I haven't calculated on it. Very nice wip. Loved how you took the first leaf, that was quick :).

Posted: 2/12/2007 7:54 AM

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Chef_Stef

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I think the PoP count increments even if you already have a PoP (it just won't drop the PoP). So, I think the dungeon 4 warp trick already eliminated a bunch of enemies killed. Notice also that a guardian acorn only dropped at the final leaf (12 enemies killed, am I right?). That would imply 20 more enemies killed in dungeon 3 to get a PoP. I don't think it makes much of a difference at that point, especially when I'm going to do another S&Q warp in dungeon 3 (right after getting the Pegasus boots). And thanks for the good review! I guess redoing things 3-4 times helps me improve the level of precision... I was watching my old run, and I couldn't help but notice at least two or three places where a S&Q warp would save time. I did some calculations, and I found that a S&Q takes 185 frames to perform. This means that if I have to pass through more than one screen transition to get to the same place, it's faster to S&Q. For example, the 5th leaf S&Q saved walking across two transitions and lots of movement in-between. Whereas, S&Q after the ball and chain knight's leaf would have wasted about 10 frames because I only have to walk across one screen (and it's a straight shot, as well).

Posted: 2/12/2007 10:54 AM

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Themattman

Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35

looking very good, keep going :)

Posted: 2/14/2007 12:01 AM

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dezbeast

Former player

Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States

I just watched your WIP up to the 5 leaves, and I tell ya Chef, I'm ecstatic over how promising it's looking so far. Keep up the great work.

Posted: 2/16/2007 5:50 PM
(Edited: 2/16/2007 6:11 PM)

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Chef_Stef

Editor, Active player (466)

Joined: 5/23/2006
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So, I was looking at my previous posts, and I realized I was WAY off on my frame calculations. I somehow misplaced a digit, and the actual total time saved as of the last segment is 1556 frames. Even worse, I've been making mistakes converting to seconds (which means that 2556 frames actually equals 43 seconds, while the actual 1556 frames equals 26 seconds). Aargh! There is good news, though... So, this next WIP goes up to the dungeon 3 entrance. I wasn't planning on posting it, but using several tricks, I saved over 1000 frames. So I had to post it :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3905/Testrun4.vbm This brings the new, real, total up to 2573 frames over the published run (43 seconds, I threw it into a calculator). Improvements include: -S&Q after getting the Slime Key -Avoiding an item switch by using the mentioned S&Q (I didn't need to equip the sword for chopping the grass again, and since I can time the power bracelet switch with the text at the beginning of dungeon 3). -Edit: Saved a little time taking a better route through the grass maze. -Using the "key in keyhole from the side" trick with the level 3 key (remember the level 1 key trick?) Tompa inspired me to thoroughly search for a way to perform the key trick... and I discovered that it can be performed from the left side of the statue! I just needed to backwards-diagonal-walk into the corner (to keep Link facing upwards) to make the key register with the statue (it doesn't work on the right side because of some technical reasons). It's hard to explain, you should watch the movie to get a better idea of what I'm talking about... Anyway, this trick saves ~8 screen transitions and tons of walking.

Posted: 2/16/2007 6:07 PM

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Tompa

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Joined: 8/15/2005
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Yeah! I "knew" it was possible to do the key trick there! I now realized that I didn't try it fully. VERY NICE CHEF, YOU ARE AWESOME!^^ I also think you can do it at the Eagle Tower entrance as well. That would save a little. On to dungeon 3. Haven't got much to say about this one more than what's mentioned in my improvements list. I'm going to play through the dungeon now just to see if more timesavers could be found. You could maybe kill the eye in the beginning to avoid going back there later... L+R glitches could do it, right?:) *Am trying*.

Posted: 2/19/2007 8:56 PM

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Themattman

Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35

Tompa wrote:

Yeah! I "knew" it was possible to do the key trick there! I now realized that I didn't try it fully. VERY NICE CHEF, YOU ARE AWESOME!^^ I also think you can do it at the Eagle Tower entrance as well. That would save a little. On to dungeon 3. Haven't got much to say about this one more than what's mentioned in my improvements list. I'm going to play through the dungeon now just to see if more timesavers could be found. You could maybe kill the eye in the beginning to avoid going back there later... L+R glitches could do it, right?:) *Am trying*.

I agree with Tompa, that key trick is so cool, since I know you just saved ~1 minute of walking :) Btw, how do you plan to defeat the boss? I remember using the boots trying to cut it in half but 90% of the time I accidentally was pushed too far to either side and had to restart :( Oh well...Keep going! I'm interested to see what parts of the dungeon you skip like in 1 and 2.

Posted: 2/22/2007 11:28 AM

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Chef_Stef

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Joined: 5/23/2006
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Yay, another update! This one completes dungeon 3: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4027/Testrun4.vbm Okay, lots of improvements to list, here goes: -Faster strategies on several rooms -More careful and precise movement with the Pegasus boots (saves a lot of time, actually; I was pretty sloppy in the old version) -S&Q after getting the Pegasus Boots -S&Q after getting the next key (it might not look faster, but it's actually 30 frames faster than just walking back) -Used a single bomb in the "clock bombs" room to kill all enemies. This saves a menu switch to the sword, but wastes a little time from having to manipulate the enemies and put the bomb in the right spot. It took a lot of re-records to get the clock bombs in the right spot, so that I could pick up their dropped bombs easily... -S&Q after getting the next key (over 200 frames faster than walking back through the ~5-6 rooms) -Timing the Pegasus Boots so that I get the boost after unlocking the blocks -Took the lower route in the underground area. Note that I have to land on the "step" before I can fall down the ladder, otherwise the ladder will "catch" you and prevents you from falling. -Clipped the wall while going down the ladder in the next room. This made me fall down the whole ladder without having to climb down. -Slashed Slime Eyes at the first frames possible instead of just wildly flailing my sword :) Some other notes: -In the Slime Eyes battle, I had to alter the strategy since I didn't have double sword power with the Pegasus Boots. Instead, I spin-slashed them twice to achieve the same effect. This was slower because I had to manipulate them to bounce towards me, and it takes a little while for them to do so. Also, it's impossible to slash both eyes at once when they're dropping towards you... you have to wait while you're "stunned." But, the battle still ended up being pretty fast. -Because I didn't have a PoP for this dungeon, I lost some time from lesser movement speed and sword strength. So, the total time saved is 3468 frames, or about 900 frames just in this dungeon. That translates to 58 seconds saved so far! Edit: With some motivation from Tompa, I redid the boss battle and saved another 110 frames. That puts the total time saved at (roughly) a full minute.

Posted: 2/22/2007 9:48 PM

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Themattman

Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35

Dungeon 3 looked to be almost perfect, I couldn't see anything that could really be improved. You just make me more and more eager to watch the next parts :)

Posted: 2/23/2007 8:00 PM

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spockybiemmichab

Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany

Almost a minute by now! That's crazy. I'm not downloading any WIPs anymore because I want to be surprised by the entire final result! The published movie is one of my favorites (if not the favorite) on this site...

Posted: 2/27/2007 2:54 AM

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Xkeeper

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

Jesus Christ please finish this. :( More and more this looks really, really great, and... yes. I crave the final movie.

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Posted: 2/27/2007 7:02 AM

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Chef_Stef

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Joined: 5/23/2006
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Right now, Tompa and I are trying to find two more major sequence breaks. If it's possible to glitch past the Walrus and get into the desert early, the whole sequence with Marin could be skipped. As such, I'm waiting to continue with the next segment; I want to see if this sequence break is possible before I go back to the old route. The other major sequence break, by the way, is glitching past the stone head guarding dungeon 8 (or getting into the dungeon by other means) without the third Ocarina song. This would eliminate the need for the Signpost maze and a few other things like rupees. Unfortunately, Tompa and I have yet to find anything useful... Remember the glitch I used to walk on top of the wall before dungeon 8? I'm currently trying to find a place to use that and possibly "exit" the cave into the desert. But I'm having trouble finding a useful cave that I can access at this stage in the game... If anybody has some ideas, Tompa and I would appreciate it. I'm just putting this out to people in case someone has a useful trick that we can use... Edit: I succesfully got into the desert early using the Pegasus Boots glitch I discovered a long time ago. It's not allowed in this TAS, of course, because it classifies as a "warping" glitch; I'm just letting people know that it is possible.

Posted: 2/27/2007 5:09 PM
(Edited: 2/28/2007 7:24 AM)

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Chef_Stef

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Done up to dungeon 4: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4132/Testrun4.vbm 6446 frames faster, or 1 minute and 47 seconds! That's almost 3000 frames just in this segment. Improvements: -S&Q after getting the pineapple (it prevents a lengthy conversation with the bear from showing up) -More precise use of the Pegasus boots, i.e. timing the boosts more carefully -Faster method of killing the enemies in the Ocarina room -S&Q after getting the Ocarina (yes, it's 90 frames faster) -Right before the walrus, skipped a switch to the sword (I instead lifted the bushes, it saved 40 frames overall) -Used a faster method of killing the Sand Worm boss (The glitched bomb is dropped at the earliest possible moment, any earlier and it will fall down the pit in the middle), saved 30 frames -Picked up the key without letting it fall in the hole, and without switching to the feather. This eliminated another item switch. -Warped to the 4th dungeon keyhole instead of walking there. This was the big timesaver; it saved over 10 screens of walking and other delays. Note that I lost ~5 seconds when taking Marin to the walrus via the warp hole. Since I had activated the warp near dungeon 4, the warp near Marin takes you there first. Edit: I improved the movie by 5 seconds after being notified of a timesaver with the pineapple by Tompa. I hex-edited the improvement in rather than redoing the whole segment... so there, Tompa :P http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4135/Testrun4v1.vbm

Posted: 2/28/2007 6:52 AM

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Tompa

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Hehe, I guess I can give you a comment here as well :D. Very nice so far Chef. ^^

Posted: 3/1/2007 8:28 AM

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Chef_Stef

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Done up to the Mambo song: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4168/Testrun4.vbm It's technically 10446 frames faster, but Tompa found another timesaver that I hex-edited into the movie - since I'm now using the warp hole to get to dungeon 5, it's quicker to get the Ballad of the Wind Fish on the way, rather than immediately after getting the Angler Key. It saves the time of a S&Q, or about 150 frames. So, the "real" time saved so far is ~6740 frames (the extra ~3700 frames was from skipping the song for now). Improvements include more precise movement in the dungeon (as usual), and manipulating enemies into better positions. You might see a few delays in movement; it's luck-manipulating the enemies. Edit: I'm now up to the beginning of the 5th dungeon. Instead of using the Mambo right after learning it, I instead swim to the nearby warp hole. Also, I've saved another item switch by keeping the feather/boots equipped until the beginning of dungeon 5, where I'll switch to the sword and skip the text at the beginning. Total time saved at the start of the dungeon: 7763 frames, or 2 minutes and 9 seconds. It's crazy how much time I'm saving off my old run... By the way, I'm not going to bother posting a WIP because there's really nothing interesting that I've done (since the last one I posted above).

Posted: 3/3/2007 12:24 AM

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Themattman

Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35

Looking good :)

Posted: 3/3/2007 1:55 AM

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Tompa

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Yeah, indeed it's looking good. I keep making him upset of me by finding improvements :). Too bad for him, muaha. He can solve it with hex editing though. Keep it up man!

Posted: 3/7/2007 10:53 PM

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Chef_Stef

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Here's the run through dungeon 5: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4296/Testrun4.vbm There were a bunch of changes, mostly minor, that I won't bother to explain here. I was mostly more creative in finding ways to minimize the time (e.g. trying to figure out the best time to kill a group of enemies rather than killing them as soon as possible). I also discovered another trick, useful when the hookshot and sword are both equipped: if you charge a spin-attack, then press the hookshot button as soon as you release the spin-attack, the spin-attack will be cancelled. I use this trick on the boss, and I'm able to get an extra hit in as a result. Also, I've redone from the beginning of dungeon 4 (again) because of another new technique Tompa told me about - jumping while using glitched pegasus boots dashing will send you zooming in odd directions. It's usually faster to do this "super-jumping" when I have to cover the whole screen (otherwise I'll just bump into the wall on the other size), and when the passageway is more than one block wide (if I only have one block of room to spare, I'll just hit the wall instead of jumping through). Total time saved: 9315 frames, which is 2 mins and 35 seconds.

Posted: 3/7/2007 11:28 PM

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Themattman

Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 35

Great...is still looking superb :)

Posted: 3/8/2007 6:14 AM

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Tompa

Any

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Joined: 8/15/2005
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Nice thing with the hookshot to cancel the spin attack. I knew this was possible, just didn't think it was useful ;D. I haven't got any improvements to mention, as I can find... And by the way, you were right about the "perfect use". I has another error in my route. You'll have 0 bombs and 0 arrows in the end.

Posted: 3/8/2007 4:32 PM

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Xkeeper

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Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

Good god almighty, that movie is getting more awesome every time I read this thread. Seriously, great job!

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