Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Ok, I'm back from my vacation and can start writing again!
About text skipping, Maur is the expert not me...
I see some improvements in dungeon 2. In the beginning when collecting the first key. Why don't you start charge your sword and kill the enemies that way? Also, when walking in the underground to the mini boss. Your jump on the second platform could be better. You touched the wall on the way up to the ladder, you can easily avoid it by jumping earlier.
It is possible to kill the Bomb Guy holding the first leaf on the first try. There is a video of it on TSA's site. http://www.thehylia.com/la_tt.shtml I'm not able to watch it... But hopefully you can. You can take the second leaf during the fall. So you can take it from the top of the screen if you like. And for the Ball and Chain enemy, you only need regular arrows for it. Bombarrow is a waste of bombs, hehe. I did the same mistakes in my 100% Testrun :D.
Good job though! But still I have one little question... Can you check if it is faster to jump diogonally than walking diogonally? I've tried to tell everyone that it is faster, but noone cares. PLEASE! :D
EDIT: Is it possible to use L/R to take the Ball and Chain leaf from the left? That would save time...
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Tompa wrote:
I see some improvements in dungeon 2. In the beginning when collecting the first key. Why don't you start charge your sword and kill the enemies that way?
Mistake, I didn't think I had time to charge the sword, but I have now fixed this.
Tompa wrote:
Also, when walking in the underground to the mini boss. Your jump on the second platform could be better. You touched the wall on the way up to the ladder, you can easily avoid it by jumping earlier.
Another mistake, this time I erroneously believed that your 2D jump distance depended on being stationary, so I would move backwards for a frame and my jumps would mysteriously get longer... I later found out that it depends on how long you hold the jump button. This has also been fixed.
Tompa wrote:
It is possible to kill the Bomb Guy holding the first leaf on the first try. There is a video of it on TSA's site. http://www.thehylia.com/la_tt.shtml I'm not able to watch it... But hopefully you can.
Interesting... would bomb arrows be even more efficient? I should test this.
Tompa wrote:
You can take the second leaf during the fall. So you can take it from the top of the screen if you like.
I'm not sure what you mean here... you mean I can pick it up in midair using the feather?
Tompa wrote:
And for the Ball and Chain enemy, you only need regular arrows for it. Bombarrow is a waste of bombs, hehe. I did the same mistakes in my 100% Testrun :D.
Yeah, but bombarrows look cooler :) I guess this answers my above question.
Tompa wrote:
Good job though! But still I have one little question... Can you check if it is faster to jump diogonally than walking diogonally? I've tried to tell everyone that it is faster, but noone cares. PLEASE! :D
You'll be happy, I've just done some testing (the times are about +/- 1-2 frames):
Single diagonal jump: 36 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 45 frames
Triple diagonal jump: 107 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 137 frames
Single horizontal jump: 37 frames
Horizontal walk to same location: 37 frames
Triple horizontal jump: 107 frames
Walk to same location: 107 frames
What this seems to indicate is that diagonally jumping is significantly faster, in terms of frames, than just walking. Horizontal jumping doesn't save any time, but this is also proof that horizontal walking should be avoided as much as possible when you can either jump or just take a horiz/vert route.
Tompa wrote:
EDIT: Is it possible to use L/R to take the Ball and Chain leaf from the left? That would save time...
I haven't had much luck with L/R in other places, but I'll test this, of course.
And on another subject, I am currently planning on buying 20 bombs instead of 10 at the shop, since I suspect they'll be used in more than 10 different places (not counting the bombs you can pick up in dungeons). Also note that once I grab the bombs from the shop, I can never go back (result of stealing the bow), so I need to have bombs correctly planned out. On the other hand, I also need arrws, and I'm stuck with the 20 you start with. In some of the timesavers above (the mole guy and the ball/chain guy), I'm not wasting bombs anymore, but I am wasting arrows. This is going to take a lot of planning...
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I'm not sure what you mean here... you mean I can pick it up in midair using the feather?
No, you don't need the feather. Just stand still beside the statue and you will get it. And if you walk to the upper screen just before the leaf comes into the screen you will here the tune that you have got it, but sadly you haven't so the leaf will appear again next time you enter, lol.
You'll be happy, I've just done some testing (the times are about +/- 1-2 frames):
Single diagonal jump: 36 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 45 frames
Triple diagonal jump: 107 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 137 frames
Single horizontal jump: 37 frames
Horizontal walk to same location: 37 frames
Triple horizontal jump: 107 frames
Walk to same location: 107 frames
What this seems to indicate is that diagonally jumping is significantly faster, in terms of frames, than just walking. Horizontal jumping doesn't save any time, but this is also proof that horizontal walking should be avoided as much as possible when you can either jump or just take a horiz/vert route.
Thanks a lot for this. And now I just can say *HAHA* to TSA, Maur, Quijo and all the other who didn't belive me. Will you redo nearly everything to save these frames or will you stick to what you have?
I haven't had much luck with L/R in other places, but I'll test this, of course.
I tried some but couldn't make it. I found another thing though: http://rapidshare.de/files/26640275/Bomb_bug.vbm.html You can reach enemies and bombplaces faster with this. Just hold Up/Down/Left/Right and the bomb can reach different places
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Tompa wrote:
Will you redo nearly everything to save these frames or will you stick to what you have?
I remember seeing you comment on this around when I first came to the forums, so generally I tried to use the feather to go diagonally relatively often. Of course, I wasn't really considering all the places it was possible, but I think I did for the most part. Just note that it is only faster when trying to get somewhere diagonal to your position; jumping diagonally back and forth as you move forward won't get you forward any faster, as far as I can tell.
Like this: (going from the o's to the x)
---------o
----------
----------
x--------- jumping here is faster than walking
o------------
---o---------
o------------
---o---------
x------------ jumping reaches the x at the same time walking will
About dungeon 2, I discovered that I took one more key than I needed to. The key in the room with the floating powder and up/down blocks wasted the most time, so I redid that part. Up to the miniboss, I am now 345 frames (6.75 seconds) faster from this and the other optimizations.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Yeah, I forgot to write about that key, but forgot. I also know, well wasn't 100% before, that jumping diagonally to get forward isn't faster, just to get diagonally, hehe.
I have been calculated all the places you need bombs and arrows. Here is an easy explanation of how many bombs/arrows that are needed. If you want me to give a better explanation, like where to use them all so can I post the rest of my text document.
Overworld = 1 bomb. 1 arrow.
Kanalet = 2 bombs. 4 arrows.
D3 = 7 bombs. 4 arrows. Need to go through some extra rooms to get.
Overworld = 2 bombs. 2 arrows
D4 = 1 of each. 1 refill with bombs, but not in the route so it takes a little extra time.
D5 = 10 bombs. 10 arrows. 1 bomb refill, but you have to go hrough extra rooms.
D6 = 20/21 bombs. 7/8 arrows. 4 bomb refills with bombs in the dungeon and 2 with arrows.
Overworld = 1 bomb. 1 arrow.
D8 = 3 bombs. 4 arrows.
D7 = 1 of each.
Last boss = 15 arrows.
And possible other places to use them on to save time, not sure about that yet.
Is there any reason you cant lcuk manipulate enemies into dropping bombs and arrows for you? This seems like it would be much faster than buying more. Also, iif you really need more, aren't there "floating" bombs and arrows you can jump for?
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I don't think enemies can drop anything but hearts and rupees. Although rupees are relatively common, and hearts less so (I've hardly seen any in the making of my run), I've never seen bombs/arrows drop in my experience. Unless somebody can prove me otherwise?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
There are some enemies that can drop bombs/arrows. Like the statues at the south Face Shrine. But they, so far I know, only drop arrows when you kill them with arrows so it's quite pointless. The "Clock Bombs" in dungeon 3 drop bombs if you kill them with bombs too. But you can kill them all 3 at once so you'll earn two bombs. I'm sure there are more enemies that drop bombs/arrows, just don't know for the moment...
EDIT: I found at least one place that the bomb trick can be used on
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1417/Even%20faster%20%20miniboss.vbm
And for Chef: http://rapidshare.de/files/26695402/Even_faster__miniboss.vbm.html
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I redid most of the second dungeon to fix the errors Tompa pointed out. This run goes up to the shop, 462 frames (~7.5 seconds) faster than the old version. 91 frames were gained in the part between the 2nd dungeon and the shop, probably from more precise jumping, jumping diagonally, and saving a menu switch right before the town (thanks, spockybiemmichab!).
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1433/Testrun3.vbm
I'll use Tompa's bomb trick whenever I can... I wonder if time could be saved placing a bomb to open a cracked wall (using l/r) from a distance...
Edit: From the looks of Tompa's bomb/arrow counts, I will need to have about 50 bombs and arrows throughout the game. (although I'm not sure if you really meant that 20 or 21 bombs are needed for dungeon 6... could you clarify? I could just look at your run, though :) At my initial starting maxima of 20 bombs and 20 arrows, even serious backtracks to get extra bombs/arrows seems impossible. So, I'm planning to visit both of the bats that increase your carrying capacity. Right after dungeon 2 would be fine for the first bat, and I wanted to run that idea by before I once again get too deep and find out I have to redo a major part of the run, hehe.
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
Aah, I was waiting for an update :) Looks really good and 7.5 seconds is a nice improvement for such a short distance!
About the bat-thing...hmm...
First of all, you can find nice maps of each dungeon here.
I just tried to count the flying bombs and arrows:
dungeon 3: 1 bomb
dungeon 4: 1 bomb
dungeon 5: 1 bomb 2 arrows
dungeon 6: 3 bombs 2 arrows
dungeon 7: 1 bomb
dungeon 8: 3 bombs 2 arrows
Hope the number is correct. It's not easy to recognize those small things on the map.
Plus there are items under some pots/mugs and I think the amount collected will be enough for the entire game so I won't suggest to visit the bats.
It depends on how far they (the bombs/arrows) are out of the way and that's a thing I can't estimate...
So honestly...I really don't know :(
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Chef, can I please have you MSN if you got it? I wrote a PM to you but you haven't answered... Here is mine Tompa_1989@hotmail.com
It is NOT worth to go to a bat, here you can easier see how many arrows/bombs you need to spend and where to get refills. It may look a bit complicated because I have just done it easy for me to understand.
(20) Bombs and (20) Arrows at start. The (19) is how many you got left.
Overworld = 1 bomb (19). 1 arrow (19) for pig
Kanalet = 4 arrows for Bomb Enemy (15) 2 bombarrows (13 bombs) (13arrows) for hidden knight. 2 arrows(11) for ball%chain enemy.
D3 = 3bombs(14) for mini boss. 1 bombarrow(13 bombs)(10arrows) for knightmare key. 1 bomb needed for the Clock Bombs here you will get three new bombs(15).
Overworld = 2 bombs(13) for Dungeon 4 key boss. You can use luck manipulation and use bomb glitch and lay two bombs at the same time and kill him without using any arrows at all.
D4 = One bombrefill at start, takes some sec to get. 1 bombarrow(12 bombs) (9 arrows) to blow bombblock, get key.
D5 = A total of 6 bombarrows (6 bombs and 3 arrows left) and 4 bombs (2 left) are needed for the Hookshot guardian (On the last hit on each time you can use just a bomb instead of a bombarrow to save arrows). Here you can get a arrow refill before the first Knight fight, but you need to take a few extra rooms to get it, can take around 15 sec but may be worth it. 1 bomb refill that you shall take. Just one room away Left-Up-Right from second Skeleton Knight. (12 bombs)
Overworld = You can get 2 arrows (5 left) in the jars before key 6 guardian. Use boots and sword to kill him.
D6 = 20 bombs. 7 arrows in this dungeon. Bomb(11) switch, bombarrow(10 bombs 4 arrows) wall, bombarrow Moldorm and Wizzrobes (I guess you can with luck manipulation kill them all three in one bombarrow (9 bombs 3 arrow) , use Hookshot glitch so you don't need to bomb switch again, arrow and bombrefill (19 bombs 13 arrows). When lifting the jar you need to open the door take both the bombs as well (19) 2 bombs (17) bombs to kill wizzrobes to get a key (I think you can do the same thing here as the Key 4 boss this will save you two arrows, use hookshot glitch to take a shortcut through the dungeon and skip the miniboss. uUse the Ocarina to kill the rabbits, 6 bombs (11) to kill the mini mini boss. Go and get the nightmare key and jump down to get the key from the chest then teleport back to start. Go left and back to the switch room, continue to the room with the arrow refill and Wizzrobes, take the arrows (23). Go back to the right and up the stairs. Do the Hookshot glitch again to get down to the jar and horseheads. Go right and continue to the boss room. Kill him with 5 bombs (6)
Overworld = 1 bomb (5). 1 arrow (22)
D8 = 3 bombs (2). 4 arrows (18).
D7 = 2 bombarrows (0 bombs 16 arrows).
Last boss = 16 arrows (0 arrows and 0 bombs in the end. A perfect use!)
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
Well, I guess my previous post is needless now ;)
But what about an arrow refill in dungeon 8 on E2 or C5?
It won't take that long I think...
Saving arrows by using the l/r-glitch to open walls would be the most elegant way, though.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
OH! Stupid me, had absolutely forgot about those two. E2 is a really big waste of time. As we don't even take that path. But C5 can pretty fast be taken. I'll will edit my post right away.
Thanks Spocky!
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Silly me, I thought "refills" only gave you a single bomb :) Thanks, that clears some things up.
Tompa, I don't have any private messages from anybody at all, so I don't know what happened... I hardly use MSN anymore, (I've got a different email I use most of the time) but I'll try sending you a private message with my MSN address. If it can't get through, I'll just edit this post.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Whatever, I have added you now. I'm online quite a lot on MSN, but I'm away from home till August 2. And I don't have my LA with me, and this computer hasn't got the rom. I can download and continue with my researching if needed. But I will still read about your progress here!
Oh.. Think I shall download the rom anyway, hehe, can't watch your movies els=).
You can check in my 100% Testrun about the bomb/arrow use locations. They are nearly the same. Some things like shooting the Key 6 guardian and hookshot skeleton are different.
EDIT: I watched your new movie and found out some more possible improvements, sorry if you "have to" remake it again to make it faster. But isn't it a little faster to take the left torch before the right one in beginning of dungeon 2? As you are going to the right after...
After killing the mini boss.. It's shorter walkway up-right instead of right-up. Sure it is faster to go past the floating hearts? Or is the bat in the way maybe?
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Well, both of those are rather minor improvements. The thought of redoing dungeon 2 for maybe 20-30 frames... I'd rather not. But thanks for all he comments... they're really helping me to become a better TASer. At this point, I am finished up through Richard and the leaves:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1447/Testrun3.vbm
A few notes about the current progress:
a) I discovered a few more up/down and left/right effects. U/D while holding a shop item puts Link into "diving" animation. L/R and other combinations do wierd things with arrows... One combination shoots very fast "arrows" diagonally up and right, another shoots fast "arrows" diagonally up and left. Look at the part where I get the ball/chain trooper's leaf for an example.
b) Current progress is 978 frames (~16 seconds) faster than the previous version. I suspect that all the diagonal jumps (instead of diagonal walks) are beginning to add up. Also some faster strategies in collecting the leaves.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Heh... this run is getting better and better. Nice glitches too.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
By the way, as soon as you get the pegasus boots, try u+d+l+r in different combinations, doing so can get Link to run ridiculously fast diagonally, at least in the old version, but since everything else that works with that version seems to work with the dx version.
Also, when using bombs, you can place bombs on the other side of the screen and have multiple bombs out at the same time and also pick up bombs that lay out of your reach using u+d+l+r.
Make sure to include these in your movie.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Nice so far. Not thinking of any questions for the moment.
Haha, I tried what you said with the pegasus boots Graveworm. Link are running very fast :D. When pressing Up+Down Link will run diagonally very fast, as Mr. Worm said. And when you jump Link will jump down instead of diagonally, and he will jump very long :D :D, and fast. Pressing only L+R will do no effect. But by pressing Down too Link will run diagonally Left instead of Right. If you jump this time Link will jump Left. I haven't figured out a way for Link to run diagonally down instead of up... have you, Graveworm?
I will play through the game so I can test some stuff with new items eetc.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Third dungeon done:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1466/Testrun3.vbm
I found out that pressing up+down+left will cause link to move diagonally right and down. I picked up a Piece of Power, too (I set that up previously), so that helped. I took damage in a few places where avoiding it would have been slower (as far as I could tell). All these l/r/u/d glitches are crazy, I tell you...
I'm really getting the hang of using Link's sword to its fullest potential. Watch the latest progress, I think you'll see what I mean :)
I think I've been able to run in 3 different directions with the pegasus boots, I can't remember though. It's been a while since I found out about and played with all the glitches that could be caused with holding different directions.
Edit: That movie is great Chef Stef, it's really entertaining to watch.
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
Yeah, the three directions I've found are diagonally up/left, up/right, and down/right, achieved by pressing left/right/down, up/down, and up/down/left, respectively.
It is really entertaining, but the times you walked diagonally instead of jumping (while you had the feather equipped) are becoming increasingly noticeable as mistakes.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1469/
Ok, how does this work? I'm probably not the first person to have done it, but I have no idea of what triggers it, and it doesn't happen every time I try, I guess it has to do with what direction I'm going when I'm hitting the edge of the screen or something like that. This game is too weird.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1471/
Ok, that room is strange, I've never seen it before.
