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Posted: 7/5/2013 6:38 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's another variant of the zip trick: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/212464297/kid_icarus_1_block_zip.fm2 The interesting stuff happens from around frame 8000. Here I zip from right to left through a 1 block deep section. By aiming up, the game doesn't check if I'm standing on something, and I therefor zip all the way to the end. If I didn't aim up, I would fall down as soon as there is no block below me. Also, by continuing aiming up after leaving the block section, I can stand on thin air as long as I like. Once again, I don't know if this is useful, but I enjoy finding out more about this zipping trick. EDIT: Great news! I have found quite a big time saver on 1-4. By zipping through a pillar, you can go pretty much straight to the boss, without any detour. I don't know exactly how much time this saves, but somewhere around 5-10 seconds. Here's a movie file illustrating this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1783663134/kid_icarus_1_4_zip.fm2 EDIT2: Oh, it looks like this is the same zip that you mentioned in your post. Oh well, great minds think alike, I guess. :)
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/5/2013 7:13 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Awesome stuff! One thing that intrigued me is the way you zipped into the 1-3 wall without building up speed first. I tried the same inputs of 14 left+A, 3 left, 2 left +A, but I didn't go nearly as far into the wall as you did. Does it have to do with that first "failed" zip you did just before it? That 1-4 route is actually the one I suggested a few posts back :D I think the 2 most hopeful places right now are: 1) The 3-4 room that's just like the new 2-4 skip room (1 right & 1 up from entrance). This time however you'd be zipping from right to left. I wonder if it's possible to apply that 1-tile zip you found, that would be a huge improvement! I tried, but couldn't get it working. 2) The 2-4 room with two eggplant wizards (3 down & 1 right from entrance). I can't see how this would work since the door is preventing you from doing anything, but if you could screenwrap here you would avoid any extra screens in thsi level.
Posted: 7/5/2013 8:16 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Hmm, I also tried this promising 3-4 skip, but it seems that you need a block under the first zip block, otherwise you will simply fall down, even if you manage to make the block push you left. I have some minor good news, though: I found a wall zip in level 3-4, 3 rooms before the boss, see this pic: This just saves you the time it takes to walk through the room, so it's about 1-2 seconds, but still something
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/5/2013 8:54 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Ohhh good idea! I dismissed this cause I thought you'd need more headroom, but I guess if you don't need to do a running jump, then that's a nonissue. 2-4 has a room like this in the new route as well. Too bad about 3-4. I noticed in one of your vids you were able to not fall through a 1-tile high row by looking up, but I guess you need to get stuck in it first. Also um, here's this. Turns out the fortress levels don't have pits I guess, so you're able to just jump around down there.
Posted: 7/5/2013 9:17 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Huh... that is... weird. Although I guess the game programmers didn't count on people actually getting down there. :) I have two more good news: First of all, you can do a wall zip in the 3-4 shop room right before the boss, saving 1-2 seconds here as well. Second of all, I have made a lua script that displays a green box wherever a wall zip might be possible. So far it only works on dungeon levels. The script works by reading the block data from the game's RAM (0500 to 05BF), and looking for blocks according to the following rule: 1. Have to be air above it (so you can fall down into this block). 2. Have to be a block below it (So you don't fall through it) 3. Have to be a block directly to its right and to its upper right (so you can approach it with a jump). The script seems to work nicely, but it does give a number of false positive, such as places that are too high to reach. However, if my theory is correct, it should never miss a potential wall zip. It's quite nice to have it running in the background while you run through rooms, as it takes away the human factor of missing something obvious. Here's the lua script, if you want to take a look. It's not perfect yet, as you need to manually type in what hex values correspond to what block (I haven't typed in all values yet), as you see that I've done between code rows 15 and 28. http://pastebin.com/Ysz424Ur
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Posted: 7/6/2013 12:51 AM
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Orange_Claw_Hammer
Joined: 2/28/2009
Posts: 99
just want to pipe in and say i'm really looking forward to an improved TAS ^ _^
Posted: 7/8/2013 6:58 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Here's a video showing off the wall zip lua script I made: Link to video Here it displays a red box on all wall tiles, and a green box when a wall zip might be possible. As I've said before, it gives a number of false positive, i.e. places where it thinks a wall zip is possible but in reality isn't, perhaps because it's too high up to reach. The good news is that it should never miss a potential wall zip.
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/9/2013 8:00 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
1-1 completed, 6 frames ahead of published run: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/771026613/kid_icarus_randil_1-1_wip.fm2 The improvements come from optimized movements. I have taken 1 more damage than in the published run, but it doesn't matter since I will pick up a health drink in 1-2. Enjoy!
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/9/2013 6:08 PM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Ahhh I'm so stoked to see this in progress! Is it not possible to boost while you're jumping left along the set of purple blocks just above it? Can't wait, I'll watch every wip you post!
Posted: 7/9/2013 8:22 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Blechy wrote:
Ahhh I'm so stoked to see this in progress! Is it not possible to boost while you're jumping left along the set of purple blocks just above it? Can't wait, I'll watch every wip you post!
Thanks! Do you mean damage boosting around frame 2700? I just tried it now, it's possible to get a damage boost by jumping high and hitting an enemy between the middle blocks, but it seems that the boost is a bit too much, and I will fall down directly to the left of the second block (I hope that made sense). Even if I manage to boost a little earlier, jumping this late is usually a few frames slower than the optimal jump. Anyway, I'll try this some more, it's a good idea, maybe it can work out (perhaps I can manipulate the enemies' movements better) EDIT: I pulled off a wall jump on 1-4 that shows that there doesn't have to be a block under the block that you zip through, there only needs to be blocks for you to walk on to the left of this block. Perhaps this opens up new possibilites? Take a look at it here, after frame 17000: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1498846036/kid_icarus_new_walljump.fm2 This only saved about 20 frames or so, but the more wall zips, the more enteratining the TAS will be!
My own page on this site.
Posted: 7/15/2013 1:24 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Found another type of zip that can't be used anywhere. Done by dropping down from a platform. For a split second I thought this could be extremely useful in 2-4 in the bottom middle room, but the door prevents it. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7928813407387583
Posted: 7/16/2013 6:08 PM
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Highness
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Made an encode. Cheers for the findings. Link to video
Posted: 7/26/2013 2:18 AM
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Blechy
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Stumbled into something new today: if you die on the same frame you exit a level, you activate the zero health glitch just like at the end of 2-4. Unfortunately, this is probably useless in tas because health isn't an issue anywhere (I think) and it requires time to set up, and it's too difficult to reliably set up in real time. Link to video
Posted: 7/26/2013 6:59 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Interesting! I also have my doubts that it can be used, but I'll keep it in mind. I can also inform you that I've started work on 1-2. I'm a few frames ahead, but I don't expect any major improvements on this levels, probably between 5-20 frames in total. Bigger improvements will, as you know, come later on. :)
My own page on this site.
Posted: 8/4/2013 2:21 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Just thought I'd give an update on this project: I'm about half way done with 1-2 now. I've managed to squeeze out more frames than I first thought. So far I'm 31 frames, 0.52 seconds, ahead of the published run on this level. This might not sound like much, but it's a lot more than I previously thought. Movie file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8384878076575485 I got tired of trial and error testing jumps, so I made a program that systematically iterated through thousands of ways to do a jump (I programmed in the game's physics), and pick out the fastest method. This saved me 6 frames on a single jump. Awesome! :)
My own page on this site.
Posted: 8/16/2013 12:11 AM
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graywords
Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 49
Location: San Antonio, TX
Just want to say keep up the great work on this. Really looking forward to seeing how much time gets shaved off with the new trick. :)
--Graywords
Posted: 8/16/2013 11:56 AM
Post subject: kid icarus wip1: YouTube
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
Randil wrote:
Just thought I'd give an update on this project: I'm about half way done with 1-2 now. I've managed to squeeze out more frames than I first thought. So far I'm 31 frames, 0.52 seconds, ahead of the published run on this level. This might not sound like much, but it's a lot more than I previously thought. Movie file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/8384878076575485
Posted: 8/16/2013 12:21 PM
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phunqsauce
Joined: 6/5/2005
Posts: 139
Hey Randil, I was just curious why you didn't kill any of the reapettes in 1-1? It looked like some flew into your path of travel so it wouldn't waste time to kill them. Is the lag the same no matter how many are on screen at one time?
I like stuff...
Posted: 8/16/2013 4:18 PM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I didn't kill them because killing enemies gives score, and score is counted down at the end of the level. Basically, 100 score = 1 frame lost. However, killing enemies also give skill, which you need to upgrade your bow (collecting hearts also gives your score). So if you intend to upgrade your bow on a level, you need to kill enemies in order to get 10 000 skill, but doing this also gives you score, which makes you lose frames after the level. So what enemies to kill and not to kill is not trivial!
My own page on this site.
Posted: 8/16/2013 5:43 PM
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phunqsauce
Joined: 6/5/2005
Posts: 139
Thanks for the explanation! I had totally forgotten about all that.
I like stuff...
Posted: 8/23/2014 6:53 PM
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mklip2001
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Today, a new Kid Icarus run was published on Speed Demos Archive. It mentioned Randil and TASVideos in the acknowledgements, so I figure some other people here may have been following the development of that run. It has some nice new tricks in it that the latest TAS doesn't have! There are different screenwraps in 2-2, 2-3, and 2-4, for instance. I don't think the screenwrap for 2-4 skips enough of the stage, though, to avoid getting the health drink in the current TAS route. There were a couple things mentioned in the speedrun comments too which I hadn't heard of. One is that supposedly damage boosts always knock you to the left.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 8/24/2014 7:33 AM
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Randil
Skilled player (1826)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Interesting! I will definitely check it out.
My own page on this site.
Posted: 1/25/2015 2:02 AM
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Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3809)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2828
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20341827831679020 Current WIP continuing from Randil's last WIP up to the start of 1-4 It is 68 frames ahead of the published run to this point. Aside from better platforming, an extra jump in the middle of 1-2 loaded a platform earlier saving 10 frames. I got some bad luck towards the end of 1-3 where one enemy that should only give me 100 points gave me 400 instead, not sure what is going on there. In one other spot, taking a more optimal jump saves more frames then killing the 300 point enemy, so that also increases the score but with a net gain overall.
Posted: 1/27/2015 11:15 PM
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Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3809)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2828
Location: US
GBA TASer of 2023 Homebrew TAS of 2023 Gameboy TASer of 2022 NES TASer of 2015
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20405881590876303 Ok I got the complete game in a WIP now. I have most of the improvements implemented, but there is still some work to do in level 3. I'm pretty confident in level 1. A lot of compromises had to be worked into level 2 in terms of damage, of course overall there is substantial savings.
Posted: 1/28/2015 6:20 AM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4036
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Wow, that's some improvement! Looking forward to seeing the details of where all the time was saved in the submission text.
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