moozooh,
you correctly identified the problem that youtube + 720p + atom doesn't work well. I don't doubt that, but I object to the conclusion you're drawing: the CPU is too slow. It isn't.
Flash is just a crappy ill-maintained pile of mess with gaping security holes, which has done as much harm to web-security and web-standards as IE6. And it hogs CPU-cycles. When flash-games with the gfx and gameplay complexity of an NES game don't run at 60fps on a current computer, something is very very wrong.
Now there's several possible solutions:
1) watch at 480p
2) use a different method of watching youtube-content. Being a bash-monkey, I use youtube-dl + mplayer. There are a multitude of firefox addons making this even easier.
3) blame the CPU, then spend more bucks on a bigger CPU you don't actually need, costing money, battery life and adding weight.
The reason I objected is that you're going for 3) without even considering a combination of 1) and 2). Completely voiding the advantages of an atom-platform for a single, non-essential use-case that can be worked around is a bad move in my book.
oh, and just for the record: I love javascript. I have a job developing browser-based games, using php/mysql on the server and nothing but sweet html/javascript on the client.
We know about flash, but whenever we decided to use it in a project it has bitten us - narrowing down target platforms, introducing funny bugs across versions, generally not working for a good portion of our players (hello support costs!) as well as being a pain to develop in a team, to deploy incrementally etc etc
I've updated the first post with my current laptop specs, in case those are at all relevant.
arflech wrote:
Pivot doesn't work in XP
I just read a bit on that site and didn't watch the video, but I'm not sure I'd be interested in this Pivot thing. I'll look into it more, but if it's just about integrating various online tasks, I'm fine with them as they are currently.
moozooh wrote:
there is no particular brand free from deserved criticism
I agree with all those points, but one purpose of this topic was to learn if there are any specific models or brands that have been problematic for multiple people, which I'm assuming would indicate they are more likely to be problematic for me.
moozooh wrote:
6-7 years is way more of a span than one might think about computers
I'm not expecting it to work for so long without any problems whatsoever. For example, my current laptop's floppy and optical drives have problems reading media a good portion of the time. I've also had to replace the AC adapter and the hinges on the monitor (once each). Though the latter may have been due to some one-time unintended trauma more than normal wear-and-tear. The HDD hasn't failed, however, and I've never lost important data or had to reformat due to major crashes from failure of any other component.
The majority of the use that a new laptop would see, as far as school goes, would be typing/typesetting reports, possibly making presentations, and watching/listening to media files in preparation for exams (including online study courses such as Kaplan for licensing exams). I suspect that the most power would be required by things like the Bochs emulator or VMWare, which I use only occasionally (i.e., 10 or fewer times per month).
Omega wrote:
As for your old one, to me it sounds like the backlight of your LCD panel broke. It might be possible to fix, but only if you're a handy guy.
I'd consider this, but I'm not sure it's worth it. First, the replacement cost might be better spent toward a new laptop. Second, I don't have any instructions for disassembling and reassembling the screen, whereas I found an official Compaq document that helped me replace the monitor hinges.
EEssentia wrote:
Also, drop the floppy. Do you honestly need one today?
Probably not, but I'd like to have the option. [As a totally unrelated aside, I found your comment about taking advantage of hardware better with Win7 somewhat ironic in that it is my understanding that you can't actually access the hardware directly in protected-mode OSes like Windows. I know that's what what you meant.]
To deal with some other issues that have come up:
Modern PC games do not interest me, in general. Occasionally, I play some indie ones such as Battle for Wesnoth, Knytt, Megabot, seiklus, and Within A Deep Forest. Most of the stuff I play is through emulators, though.
I use sites like KeepVid and YouDDL to download YouTube videos and watch them. This is partly because I haven't updated Opera and Firefox in years and partly because YouTube doesn't like some of the extensions and options I have set in those browsers. Of course, I'll install the latest versions of those browsers on a new laptop, but I'll probably still download the videos for viewing.
I don't use GMail or Google Buzz.
Based on what I've read here so far, it appears that a Core 2 Duo CPU is more recommended than an Atom one. I'll look into more info about those and about the HP dv series.
Thanks again for all of your input, and more info is always welcome.
Based on your last post, I'd actually guess that an Atom-based notebook may be fast enough for now. It's faster than your old P4 in any case, and the only thing I see on your list that really requires cpu power is bochs. Gimp and OpenOffice may be a little sluggish (just like you know them), but they'll work.
On the other hand, an Atom may not be fast enough in 3-4 years, depending on your future needs.
So it's up to you to decide whether you want a lightweight device with long battery life or rather something with more muscle.
OS should be Win7 or Linux. There's no point in Vista and trying to stick with XP for another 5 years just won't work.
I agree with all those points, but one purpose of this topic was to learn if there are any specific models or brands that have been problematic for multiple people, which I'm assuming would indicate they are more likely to be problematic for me.
The thing is that you will get widely different answers, and none is better than the other. Everyone loves brands. Some more than others. Some have had just problems with one, while the other hasn't had any. That is why bringing up brands is bad, if you ask me,
Probably not, but I'd like to have the option. [As a totally unrelated aside, I found your comment about taking advantage of hardware better with Win7 somewhat ironic in that it is my understanding that you can't actually access the hardware directly in protected-mode OSes like Windows. I know that's what what you meant.]
I can assure you, I have never needed the floppy in years. Newer operating systems don't need them.
If you really, really, really, really, for some silly reason do need one, you can always get an external one. If you can get your hands on one, that is. They're pretty outdated by now.
As for the hardware no, you misunderstood me. Windows 7 takes better advantage of memory, power management, SSD drives, multi-cores, etc than XP. That's what I meant. And it will likely be doing so for a future to come.
I can't see USB3 support coming to XP, for example. But you can bet your hat it will come to 7 ;)
Now, for the rest, you need to choose between:
- Faster, better performance, more value for the money, DVD-drive, bigger screen, medium battery life (laptop) OR
- Slow, expensive, no DVD-drive, small screen and keyboard, but good/great battery life (netbook).
Sir VG wrote:
Netbooks are slow and non-upgradable.
Um, what? I can certainly change some basic things, like the HDD and RAM if I want to. I'm sure there's other things that can be changed out if you feel like tearing it apart, just like any other laptop.
Yes, you can upgrade RAM (one stick only usually) and swap HDD, but not much more than that. Laptops are pretty much all-upgradable, except for the gfx card.
Also, beware that Javascript, Flash and Silverlight will suck the life out of your Atom CPU, so I'd still argue that a non-Atom CPU (a real cpu) is best for optimal web experience.
the only thing I see on your list that really requires cpu power is bochs.
What about VMWare? Sysinternals has a program (disk2vhd) that lets you clone a HDD and convert it to a virtual machine. I'm thinking about doing that with this laptop's HDD for those programs that will refuse to work under newer versions of Windows. I hope there aren't too many of those, but I assume that might require more CPU power than a command-line only VM of Debian.
Tub wrote:
Gimp and OpenOffice may be a little sluggish (just like you know them), but they'll work.
They haven't been too sluggish for me so far (other than the start-up times), but I haven't used them for any large projects/files. Or maybe they've been sluggish the whole time, and I didn't know any better ;).
EEssentia wrote:
As for the hardware no, you misunderstood me.
No, I knew what you meant; I just wrote about an unusual way to interpret what you wrote. To get back to your real meaning, I remember reading an online article a few weeks ago about Win7's new method of handling RAM wherein it tries to fill the RAM with files and programs it predicts (somehow) you might use most frequently. I don't remember too many details because I didn't anticipate having to switch to Win7 at the time, but someone brought up the point that this might wear out RAM faster than previous versions of Windows. Unless I misunderstood how that works, it doesn't seem like an improvement.
Eessentia wrote:
Now, for the rest, you need to choose between:
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You're saying that netbooks cost more just because they have a longer battery life (and lack a ton of near-essential features)?
What about VMWare? Sysinternals has a program (disk2vhd) that lets you clone a HDD and convert it to a virtual machine. I'm thinking about doing that with this laptop's HDD for those programs that will refuse to work under newer versions of Windows. I hope there aren't too many of those, but I assume that might require more CPU power than a command-line only VM of Debian.
7 Professional and higher has XP Mode: a mode where you can install your XP applications and run them from inside Windows 7 just as normal programs. Only they run through the XP OS. Of course, this requires a CPU with virtualization, and Atom isn't one of them (Core 2 duo is a model that has, but not all models have it, so check first; thanks Intel!).
No, I knew what you meant; I just wrote about an unusual way to interpret what you wrote. To get back to your real meaning, I remember reading an online article a few weeks ago about Win7's new method of handling RAM wherein it tries to fill the RAM with files and programs it predicts (somehow) you might use most frequently. I don't remember too many details because I didn't anticipate having to switch to Win7 at the time, but someone brought up the point that this might wear out RAM faster than previous versions of Windows. Unless I misunderstood how that works, it doesn't seem like an improvement.
Wear out RAM? Can that even happen?
It is known that using up all RAM consumes marginally or evenly as much power as just a trickle of it, so why not use all your available RAM for something good, such as cache? Vista did it. Linux does it. Everything does it now. It's for the good.
You're saying that netbooks cost more just because they have a longer battery life (and lack a ton of near-essential features)?
You could see it that way. The price / performance ratio is certainly worse. The likely cause of that is that netbooks used to be so cheap that companies didn't get any revenue for them. So they pushed up their price to what we see now. It's unfortunate, but true.
There isn't too much overhead in virtualisation. The faster CPU will probably offset the virtualisation overhead in the most common scenarios. (Unless you're running IO or GFX-heavy applications, but no amount of CPU-power will make that faster).
Dacicus wrote:
They haven't been too sluggish for me so far (other than the start-up times),[..]
yes, mostly start-up times. Or opening a document or creating a new one.
I guess the larger amount of RAM in a new machine will speed that up anyway.
Dacicus wrote:
but someone brought up the point that this might wear out RAM faster than previous versions of Windows.
There's virtually no wearing with RAM. Of all the pieces of hardware inside your computer, the RAM is likely to live the longest.
Heavily utilizing RAM to improve performance is a good thing. The difficulty is to use it in a way that actually boosts performance, such algorithms often have to predict the future. If the prediction is accurate, performance goes up. If the prediction is wrong, the system wasted time.
Dacicus wrote:
You're saying that netbooks cost more just because they have a longer battery life (and lack a ton of near-essential features)?
no, because of the inherent difficulty of providing the same features within smaller space.
Netbooks aren't really more expensive though, they usually range between 200 and 400€, while notebooks are 300 to 1000€.
There is a third option: get an atom-based notebook. That'll get you a combination of a netbook's price and battery life with a notebooks larger screen.
In other words:
the decision between atom-based and high-end-cpu is a tradeoff between battery-life and performance
the decision between netbook and notebook is a tradeoff between portability and a larger screen
If it's meant to act as your main computer, I'd advise something with a large screen. In any case, try out a friend's netbook for a few hours before buying one yourself.
There isn't too much overhead in virtualisation. The faster CPU will probably offset the virtualisation overhead in the most common scenarios. (Unless you're running IO or GFX-heavy applications, but no amount of CPU-power will make that faster).
I would say that virtualization can take up quite a lot of CPU power. Nothing to scoff at.
no, because of the inherent difficulty of providing the same features within smaller space.
Netbooks aren't really more expensive though, they usually range between 200 and 400€, while notebooks are 300 to 1000€.
I wouldn't say that. There is no profit in a small cost. Therefore, they try to include stuff to bring the price of netbooks up.
If you want a reasonably good netbook, it's going to cost $300+, at the very least. There's even those priced at $500+!
There's also "ultra portables", which are really a better option, IMHO. They are higher priced, but they try to bring the best of both worlds: good battery life with performance.
This is a highly biased opinion, but netbooks are crap. The performance of them are just absolutely disgusting. Owning one and using one have made me come to this conclusion. My advice is: don't buy anything with an Atom CPU. And don't buy anything with a resolution lower than 768 pixels in height (most netbooks have a resolution of 1024x600).
Again, purely biased opinion, but it's what I think. Definitely try one out before purchasing.
This is a highly biased opinion, but netbooks are crap. The performance of them are just absolutely disgusting. Owning one and using one have made me come to this conclusion. My advice is: don't buy anything with an Atom CPU. And don't buy anything with a resolution lower than 768 pixels in height (most netbooks have a resolution of 1024x600).
Again, purely biased opinion, but it's what I think. Definitely try one out before purchasing.
From the various netbooks I've seen, I think the resolution depends on the screen size. The 10" ones or less seem to have the smaller resolution while anything over 10" (mine is 11.6") gets you to the 1366x768 widescreen resolution.
While your opinion of them differs from mine, I will definitely agree with you on one thing...for ANY laptop or netbook you try, definitely try it out, if for nothing more then "how does the keyboard feel?" Especially on any laptop that doesn't have a full size keyboard (pretty much any laptop less then 17", or 17" ones that aren't widescreen).
Also, get an external mouse (either wired or wireless, but wireless means one less cord). You'll thank yourself later.
I would say that virtualization can take up quite a lot of CPU power. Nothing to scoff at.
I've done some heavy transcoding work on a windows-VM in virtualbox. I know two things:
- performance differed quite a bit depending on settings and virtualbox version.
- with the right settings, performance was very close to native windows.
As said, most of the performance problems in VMs are related to IO (disk activity or gfx). CPU power helps, but not as much as you'd like.
Sir VG wrote:
definitely try it out, if for nothing more then "how does the keyboard feel?"
Any new laptop keyboard will take a week to get used to. If only because the special keys are positioned differently.
I'm home for Spring Break now, and I disassembled the laptop again to check if maybe one of the video cables had been damaged since I replaced the screen's hinges a few years ago. That doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell; it must be the backlight lamp that's dead. The directions I've found online for replacing it are way beyond my comfort level, however, so I guess it's time for a new laptop.
EEssentia wrote:
7 Professional and higher has XP Mode
I'll probably stick with VMWare Player. It doesn't require a Win7 Pro or higher version or a CPU that has hardware virtualization, and there are ways to get the XP Mode working in it. Oh, and it supports more OSes than Virtual PC.
Incidentally, looking up info about XP Mode reminded me of what I've mostly been using floppies for lately: Transferring info between my main OS and the emulated/virtual ones. I prefer to keep them separate rather than have them "integrated." I'll admit, however, that I haven't used real floppies since I found the Virtual Floppy Drive (VFD) program.
Also, thanks to EEssentia and Tub for clarifying that RAM doesn't wear out.
So, I got a Sony VAIO notebook with Win7 Home Premium and an Intel Core i3 CPU (full specs here). It's generally working great, but I do have some complaints:
No floppy drive :'( :'( :'(
The Start menu doesn't expand folders any longer. It fits everything into a little box, forcing you to scroll up and down. It's horribly annoying.
There are separate Program Files directories for 32- and 64-bit programs. This isn't a problem as much as a "why do this?" thing.
The intro video for the Best Buy Software Installer said something about how annoying it is to have a computer come with a bunch of preinstalled software that you're not going to use, yet I found Google Chrome, MS Works, and a 60-day trial of MS Office 2007 on this computer. Those are the programs I immediately identified, so who knows what else is on it.
MS Paint is way different from the WinXP version. There are some new features that look interesting, but the menu is gone. Icons are nice and everything, but I'm a literate person, and I don't want to guess about what some unlabeled button will do. It's a good thing I finished the Outlands maps before the old screen died.
You can no longer view the contents of the clipboard. While commands like echo off | clip supposedly clear the contents, I'd like to see the contents actually disappear when I tell it to clear, like in WinXP.
Deal with it! Floppies are dead and should be treated so. You don't need one anyway.
[*]The Start menu doesn't expand folders any longer. It fits everything into a little box, forcing you to scroll up and down. It's horribly annoying.
In case you don't get used to it, there are 3rd party start-menu apps that work quite well. There is no setting to disable this behavior, which has been there since Vista.
[*]There are separate Program Files directories for 32- and 64-bit programs. This isn't a problem as much as a "why do this?" thing.
For backwards compatibility. You have a new, modern CPU which can handle 64-bit mode. Yet you have all those crap software which is still 32-bit.
[*]The intro video for the Best Buy Software Installer said something about how annoying it is to have a computer come with a bunch of preinstalled software that you're not going to use, yet I found Google Chrome, MS Works, and a 60-day trial of MS Office 2007 on this computer. Those are the programs I immediately identified, so who knows what else is on it.
Yep. Known issue with purchased computers. Go to your add/remove applet and remove all the crap you can find from your computer.
[*]MS Paint is way different from the WinXP version. There are some new features that look interesting, but the menu is gone. Icons are nice and everything, but I'm a literate person, and I don't want to guess about what some unlabeled button will do. It's a good thing I finished the Outlands maps before the old screen died.
You're going to have to live with that. It's not that difficult, however. There are so few buttons to press.
Otherwise there are freeware alternatives such as Paint.net which is quite good.
[*]You can no longer view the contents of the clipboard. While commands like echo off | clip supposedly clear the contents, I'd like to see the contents actually disappear when I tell it to clear, like in WinXP.[/list]
Never used nor heard of that one, but it works for me. Run -> cmd -> echo off | clip -> contents gone.
[*]The intro video for the Best Buy Software Installer said something about how annoying it is to have a computer come with a bunch of preinstalled software that you're not going to use, yet I found Google Chrome, MS Works, and a 60-day trial of MS Office 2007 on this computer. Those are the programs I immediately identified, so who knows what else is on it.
Well, everybody raves about Chrome, but I do agree that the last two are stupid. I wonder, since you bought it from NotBest Buy if it's got McAfee for your antivirus?
There are separate Program Files directories for 32- and 64-bit programs. This isn't a problem as much as a "why do this?" thing.
because microsoft is proud to finally have workable 64bit-support and is determined to show it. Never mind that everyone else had that 7 years ago. ;)
Dacicus wrote:
yet I found Google Chrome, MS Works, and a 60-day trial of MS Office 2007 on this computer.
I speculate that the notebook vendor actually receives money (or other benefits) from microsoft for putting that office trial on it. If they just installed Open Office, microsoft would sell less office packages.
As a general rule, on each of my notebooks the first thing I did was to wipe the hard drive and manually reinstall windows and recent drivers. That reliably reduces the amount of crappy software packages on my system to.. well, one.
Not recommended unless you know what you're doing. Take care not to kill the recovery partition, if your system uses one instead of a DVD.
Maybe that point was in jest, but anyways, I thought laptops stopped having floppy drives something like 10 years ago or such.
And who needs floppy drives anymore? USB memory sticks have effectively replaced them 100% long time ago. They serve the exact same purpose and have several orders of magnitude more capacity.
The only good thing about MS Works is being able to open files that some jerkoff sends to you in the proprietary Works format (open-source implementations are incomplete), but I believe Microsoft even makes available a converter for that.
The only good thing about MS Works is being able to open files that some jerkoff sends to you in the proprietary Works format (open-source implementations are incomplete), but I believe Microsoft even makes available a converter for that.
AFAIK Microsoft offers viewers for most/all of their proprietary file formats free to download. If they aren't installed in the system already, they can be found at microsoft.com somewhere.
It's not like one needs to buy MS Office/Works/whatever just to view files made with them.
